Drow Tempest in expansion

[Chai]

Nope, that's not it.

It certainly is. When half orc came out it was the obvious melee choice for just about everything. No one complained. Now that this racial PRE thing is happening, optimizers are up in a tizzy because it presents more of a dilema due to being handed to a race with a con penalty, which is currently a "do not play" race for them.

[Chai]

you don't seem to be getting it.

Actually I understand it perfectly and see all these claims you are making for what they really are.

Youre trying to compare it to hOrc ravager, which only barbarians will likely benefit from, but you dont seem to care that that example is more pigeonholing than the drow TWF example. Hint: For crit rage to work, you must be raged.

I never once made any mention of tempest being limited to drow only. I made mention of huge advantages of being able to combine other PURE CLASSES with tempest benefits which will be drow only. If other classses have to take ranger to get it, they dont fit the description.

Drow are THE TWO WEAPON FIGHTING RACE in D&D. You keep touting that it doesnt help non TWFers - drow arent non TWFers (and again you also dont seem to care that other racial PREs pigeonhole other races just as much as I stated above).

And you just proved my point exactly in your last paragraph by talking about how crappy of a race you feel drow is - it would be such a sin for the optimizers to have to play it due to it being the best combo for some TWF builds, or be second best and play another race. This is what you are really complaining about, after all. I say its just the opposite - when theres this kind of dilema and internal debate, they nailed it balance wise.

Half orc w/ ravager (the PRE you keep trying to flaunt as a comparison) will be the cookie cutter barbarian race (yay double up on barb PRE). Wheres your disdain at the pigeonholing there? It doesnt exist, because its a clear cut obvious choice is obvious situation, which is exactly what the optimizers are looking for. They actually want drow to be pigeonholed into scorpion wraith or some other niche flavor PRE so they dont have to worry about having to consider playing the race when the spreadsheet gamers show its actually a decent choice for various build combinations. Giving drow tempest opens doors that might make the race optimal, pulling FOTM builders right out of their comfort zones. As a DM, I recognize that this is the best thing that could possibly happen. This kind of dilema indicates balance between races with no clear cut obvious choice.

I do hope drow becomes FOTM for some combinations. It will be hilarious to watch everyone who made fun of drow toons over the years roll em up.

[Isolani]

I have a drow tempest rogue that I had abandoned playing since the changes to twf and tempest a while back. Wouldn't mind TRing him as a twf shortswords rog/mnk or something like that, and being able to drop the 6 ranger levels spent to get tempest I back when it was a better pre would be nice. Though it is kinda nice having manyshot sometimes. Will have to see how the new enhancements work.

I need to level a human and a helf to 20 so I'll be able to play with their enhancements. For some reason, I don't have any human or helf characters, even though I think they are both great races for a lot of builds. I just don't like how they look that much. Don't have a halfling either, but I'm never rolling one of those creepy little things, I don't care what enhancements they get.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

It certainly is.

No, that most certainly is NOT why some people oppose Tempest as a Drow racial PrE.

[Chai]

No, that most certainly is NOT why some people oppose Tempest as a Drow racial PrE.

And they lost the flavor debate by about 30 years or so. The optimizer side of things is about to have a huge anvil dropped on it, and when that dust clears, youll see I was correct on that account as well.

Most people clearly oppose it literally due to what I defined, which will be hilariously evidenced when the optimizers are moaning about having to play a race that has a 2 con penalty this summer, if they want to be the best race for specific class/race combo builds DPS wise. The cookie cutter pixelated racial pecking order of yesteryear is about to go the way of the MMO dinosaur, along with the platforms their metagaming comfort zones used to look down at everyone else, including drow, from. I welcome it.

As a game testing DM/REF those are the internal debates / dilemas I look for when grading the balance of a specific game mechanic. When the optimizers harp about having to play a race they clearly felt is inferior just to have one or two well optimized traits of the build shine, this indicates that MORE balance is achieved. They actually have to make a sacrifice to gain something else that is superior. Right now this is not the case, which is why the optimizers steer clear of drow in favor of other races, and stay inside their comfort zone, sacrificing nothing. They try to use the flavor as an excuse, until they find out that the PRE fits their flavor perfectly, as defined in the past 30 years worth of entries in monster manuals. They are attempting to get what they want, and sacrifice nothing for it - the true min maxer mentality. When changes happen to a game regarding character builds, this train is never late, and is always a good indication of balance, or lack thereof, in the system.

[Jaid314]

or, alternately, drow could continue to be completely irrelevant because the PrE they are getting makes them suck less in a certain area, but may or may not make them leaders in it.

drow will be better melees than they currently are. they may still not rank any higher than they currently do, though, because the other races could improve just as much (or more) in terms of getting a powerful and useful PrE, while retaining all the other attributes that make them currently a good choice. we don't know that drow tempest on a rogue will be better than half-orc ravager on another DPS build. i definitely don't see anything to lead me to believe that drow tempest on a rogue will be better than half-elf tempest or human tempest on a rogue, which we have had indications might be possible as well.

there is nothing that makes me look at the upcoming enhancement pass and think that drow absolutely must be better than other races for melee. they *might* come out better. they might also come out worse. and in fact, unless the basic drow abilities get better, in all probability they will in fact come out worse, is my opinion.

[Melcena]

or, alternately, drow could continue to be completely irrelevant because the PrE they are getting makes them suck less in a certain area, but may or may not make them leaders in it.

drow will be better melees than they currently are. they may still not rank any higher than they currently do, though, because the other races could improve just as much (or more) in terms of getting a powerful and useful PrE, while retaining all the other attributes that make them currently a good choice. we don't know that drow tempest on a rogue will be better than half-orc ravager on another DPS build. i definitely don't see anything to lead me to believe that drow tempest on a rogue will be better than half-elf tempest or human tempest on a rogue, which we have had indications might be possible as well.

there is nothing that makes me look at the upcoming enhancement pass and think that drow absolutely must be better than other races for melee. they *might* come out better. they might also come out worse. and in fact, unless the basic drow abilities get better, in all probability they will in fact come out worse, is my opinion.

Technically, you may be wrong from a cost/bonus point of view. There were numerous posts where it was said that Half-Elves and Humans may be able to access other racial trees due to adaptability of humans as a whole. However, i must point at that is was also confirmed that a human would have to pay much more to access those Pres than would the base race would, with half-elves paying even more for the Pres than humans already would. So i guess one point that they are trying to make about that is just the fact that while a drow would only have to put 5/10/15/20/25/30/41 for a cap in tempest, a human may wind up with a 6/11/16/21/26/31/42 or even more, and half elves paying something like 10/15/20/25/30/35/46 for tempest. All in all, that is quite a lot to invest in something drow get for a base.

[Jaid314]

Technically, you may be wrong from a cost/bonus point of view. There were numerous posts where it was said that Half-Elves and Humans may be able to access other racial trees due to adaptability of humans as a whole. However, i must point at that is was also confirmed that a human would have to pay much more to access those Pres than would the base race would, with half-elves paying even more for the Pres than humans already would. So i guess one point that they are trying to make about that is just the fact that while a drow would only have to put 5/10/15/20/25/30/41 for a cap in tempest, a human may wind up with a 6/11/16/21/26/31/42 or even more, and half elves paying something like 10/15/20/25/30/35/46 for tempest. All in all, that is quite a lot to invest in something drow get for a base.

it's all in how much it costs, true.

but it also starts from a higher base. and the base for humans and half-elves is quite a bit higher than the base for drow.

and furthermore, that still presumes that tempest is a better DPS PrE than other DPS PrEs. i see no reason to assume that tempest is going to grant godlike powers, but ravager is going to be a pathetically weak PrE. it is entirely possible that a half-orc ravager version of whatever build would be better DPS than a drow tempest version of that same build. we don't know yet. what we do know is that drow start from a lower point than almost any other race from a melee perspective, and that the devs are not likely to make tempest into some sort of amazing unstoppable juggernaut while leaving every other PrE as nothing more than a pale shadow of what tempest offers. and that if they do accidentally make tempest super-powerful, it will probably be followed shortly afterwards with nerfs that turn it into one of the most pathetic PrEs in the game, if turbine's track record tells us anything.

[Chai]

or, alternately, drow could continue to be completely irrelevant because the PrE they are getting makes them suck less in a certain area, but may or may not make them leaders in it.

drow will be better melees than they currently are. they may still not rank any higher than they currently do, though, because the other races could improve just as much (or more) in terms of getting a powerful and useful PrE, while retaining all the other attributes that make them currently a good choice. we don't know that drow tempest on a rogue will be better than half-orc ravager on another DPS build. i definitely don't see anything to lead me to believe that drow tempest on a rogue will be better than half-elf tempest or human tempest on a rogue, which we have had indications might be possible as well.

there is nothing that makes me look at the upcoming enhancement pass and think that drow absolutely must be better than other races for melee. they *might* come out better. they might also come out worse. and in fact, unless the basic drow abilities get better, in all probability they will in fact come out worse, is my opinion.

I dont see anything else being better than a drow tempest rogue for steady long term DPS. We've already been given parts of tempest as a teaser, and the single best way to create more rogue DPS is to create a situation where they hit more per time unit. Ravager is speculated to increase threat range on weapons when raged (yeah we got a little teaser there too), which does not add anywhere as significant a boost to a rogues DPS, where each hit is a huge amount of SA damage on a zero fort mob, which is all raid bosses if youre running with a serious group who stacks debuffs like they should.

hElf or human might beat it in the burst DPS dpt, which means they would be better on shroud normal where the drow would be better in LOB and eChrono - situations that consistent long term DPS builds shine in. The new end game raid trend is longer single fights rather than stage after stage of short parts.

No one said they absolutely must be better than other melee races. Anyone who likes to attack more often on a long term consistent basis rather than having a limited amount of shorter term bursts will want to go tempest. Even then, we know they are getting a haste boost as well.

Human and hElf tempest - if this option even exists, would also cost more AP, due to having to pay slightly more to unlock that racial.

The optimizers already know all this, which is why they cringe at possibly having to play a con penalty race to get good consistent long term DPS.

[Jaid314]

so you're saying the entire basis of your assumption is that ravager (for example) is going to do nothing more than expand the crit range a little, and will otherwise add absolutely nothing whatsoever to DPS, notwithstanding it's a DPS prestige enhancement for a class which can largely only do 3 things well: DPS, moar DPS, and MOAR DPS.

yeah... sure... good luck with that. [sarcasm] that sounds exactly like something that they would consider to be the equivalent of 3 tiers of prestige enhancement under the old system. [/sarcasm]

[krogyy]

so you're saying the entire basis of your assumption is that ravager (for example) is going to do nothing more than expand the crit range a little, and will otherwise add absolutely nothing whatsoever to DPS, notwithstanding it's a DPS prestige enhancement for a class which can largely only do 3 things well: DPS, moar DPS, and MOAR DPS.

yeah... sure... good luck with that. [sarcasm] that sounds exactly like something that they would consider to be the equivalent of 3 tiers of prestige enhancement under the old system. [/sarcasm]

i doubt ravagers abilities will be tied to rage. it wouldn't make sense to choose it for being unlocked by race if that was the case.

still i don't get why you are so stuck on the lack of melee enhanchements for drows.

take for example a drow barbarian. 80 ap to divide on barbarian tabs (moar and MOAR DPS as you said) and the tempest tab. if you assume that occult slayer will be a defensive pre, there are 195 ap worth of enhanchements in the FB, ravager and tempest tabs. even if only half of those are worth the price you don't even need to touch the racial tab in order to spend all your AP into maximizing your dps.

i think you are too conditioned by the way things are now. at the moment, the choice of enhanchements is mostly fixed once you choose your class (split). few (if any) melee classes offer 80ap worth of good enhanchments so the races with good enhanchements for a specific role have a big edge. (note that here i use "good" from a cost/benefit point of view)

not anymore in the new system, most classes will offer way more enhanchements that you could possibly spend (65ap per tab). of course there will be synergies in the new system also, so certain combinations will be stronger. but it is impossible to predict which combos will work better.

[Chai]

so you're saying the entire basis of your assumption is that ravager (for example) is going to do nothing more than expand the crit range a little, and will otherwise add absolutely nothing whatsoever to DPS, notwithstanding it's a DPS prestige enhancement for a class which can largely only do 3 things well: DPS, moar DPS, and MOAR DPS.

yeah... sure... good luck with that. [sarcasm] that sounds exactly like something that they would consider to be the equivalent of 3 tiers of prestige enhancement under the old system. [/sarcasm]

No, im saying thats what we know about it so far - something anyone who reads my posts, and also read / participated in the enhancement thread will understand.

i think you are too conditioned by the way things are now.

This.

Alot of these assumptions about drow are being made due to the current racial pecking order, as are the assumptions that hOrcs will just be better. That current pecking order is also the optimizers comfort zone. Once it is known that they would have to play a race outside that zone to optimize for a specific thing, thats when they start complaining, which is a very good indicator of when balance is being observed in the system.

[Jaid314]

so you know basically one thing about the PrE so far. and on that basis, you're assuming the entire PrE is going to suck at adding DPS.

ravager probably won't have it's abilities tied to rage. it almost definitely *will* add melee DPS, and in all probability quite a bit of it, regardless of that fact.

to assume that drow is automatically going to be the best choice for DPS just because we've seen a preview of it, and not much else, is absurd.

and given that racial enhancements is likely where you'll have to spend to unlock racial PrEs (since otherwise how would you qualify without being the appropriate class in the first place)... unless drow *does* get a total enhancement rework, the fact that drow have terrible enhancements *will* come into play.

add onto this the fact that drow have only 28 point builds (with stat bonuses that help compensate if and only if you need those stats) and on top of that a -2 penalty to con.

drow currently don't make good melees. no, they don't make unplayable melees. frankly, you could make a 6 strength halfling THF kensei and still probably have a character that can hit and damage many raid bosses. but unless something changes, drow are going to continue to not be a good choice, even if they aren't completely unplayable, and without those basic changes to drow, tempest is going to be a poor choice for a racial PrE for drow, because it adds only to one specific area, and (again, unless they change drow entirely) that one thing is not even an area drow are particularly great at.

[Chai]

so you know basically one thing about the PrE so far. and on that basis, you're assuming the entire PrE is going to suck at adding DPS.

We know quite a few things about tempest, so no, Im not assuming the PRE will be awesome from "one thing."

ravager probably won't have it's abilities tied to rage. it almost definitely *will* add melee DPS, and in all probability quite a bit of it, regardless of that fact.

Unless it adds attacks per time unit like tempest does, it wont be better for rogue than tempest is.

Unless of course it adds like 90 damage per hit, in which case everyone will be pigeonholed into ravager - the exact thing you were just complaining about a few posts ago.

to assume that drow is automatically going to be the best choice for DPS just because we've seen a preview of it, and not much else, is absurd.

Incorrect. I am highlighting SPECIFIC examples, not making blanket statements.

What one aspect adds the most damage to pure rogues? - hits per time unit. Which PRE adds hits per time unit out of the racial choices? Tempest.

and given that racial enhancements is likely where you'll have to spend to unlock racial PrEs (since otherwise how would you qualify without being the appropriate class in the first place)... unless drow *does* get a total enhancement rework, the fact that drow have terrible enhancements *will* come into play.

Here you go making assumptions based on the current racial pecking order again, which will not exist when the changes occur.

add onto this the fact that drow have only 28 point builds (with stat bonuses that help compensate if and only if you need those stats) and on top of that a -2 penalty to con..

Drow are a 34 point build with stats already allocated. There you go harping about the con penalty again. As I stated before a few posts ago, this train is never late. If 20 HP at end game is breaking a build, theres more of an issue with the build than -2 con.

drow currently don't make good melees. no, they don't make unplayable melees. frankly, you could make a 6 strength halfling THF kensei and still probably have a character that can hit and damage many raid bosses. but unless something changes, drow are going to continue to not be a good choice, even if they aren't completely unplayable, and without those basic changes to drow, tempest is going to be a poor choice for a racial PrE for drow, because it adds only to one specific area, and (again, unless they change drow entirely) that one thing is not even an area drow are particularly great at.

Unless something changes you say? You mean like the fact that EVERYTHING is changing? The fact that drow is getting tempest is enough for rogues to rejoice, unless they are completely worried that a 2 con penalty is going to gimp their build. Then they will have to sigh and be satisfied being second best DPS playing another race - oh wait, optimizers wont do that. This dilema right here, each time it is voiced, is worth more than pure gold feedback-wise. It tells the designers that they NAILED IT balance-wise.

The very fact that drow are getting tempest IS changing everything, which is why the optimizers dont want it to happen. A race they made fun of for the majority of the duration of this game will make the best rogues and has a good chance to compete in making other good melee combos. If their spreadsheets show it to be on top for specific combos, the choice will be to play the race and suck it up on the con penalty issue, or play a different race and be somewhat behind drow in output. Optimizers dont like to have to make those kinds of decisions, as evidenced by the mass bandwagon jumping the minute hOrc was released, due to that race being all gain and no sacrifice compared to what they were playing before its release.

[Jaid314]

i wasn't talking about tempest. i was talking about ravager. you have one thing that you speculate might be the case for it, and are concluding that it won't add a lot of DPS based on that one thing.

we have seen a preview of tempest, which is getting a fairly significant boost. not just above what tempest was before, but also above what i would suspect most melee PrEs are adding right now. we can assume that the other melee PrEs are not going to be likewise boosted significantly (if in different ways), but that seems somewhat questionable. it particularly seems rather absurd to go off the assumption that prestige enhancements for classes that are pure melee DPS and the PrE is itself pure melee DPS by design will not add much DPS. if those classes add similar DPS to what tempest does (and i don't find that terribly implausible; consider for a moment that frenzied berzerker, for example, adds 6d6 bane damage to every hit *right now* in addition to several other features that boost damage, and could very well be scheduled for an improvement since right now melees are hurting pretty bad in the balance department - you really think ravager isn't going to add significant DPS?)

furthermore, no matter how you look at it drow are not 34 point, at least not to a melee (to a class that actually values at least two of dex, int, and cha enough to raise them above 14, sure. to a melee that largely only cares about strength, dex, and con, and largely only cares about getting dex to the point where it qualifies them for certain feats, they're essentially not much better than a 28 point build or in some cases worse than a 28 point build, if a very high con is a priority).

20 hit points won't break your build (although, as i have pointed out repeatedly, it is entirely possible for the difference to be 40 or 60). but it sure doesn't help things along any further when you're already suffering.

we know that enhancements are changing. we know that drow are (at least currently) planned to get the tempest PrE. we don't know what other enhancements drow might be getting. but unless those enhancements are really really interesting, it is entirely possible that drow will not even be the best rogues, or the best anything in melee (with the possible exception of flavor builds like a TWF short sword monk with a secondary specialisation in shuriken - a build i had been planning to make for a while, and which would in fact benefit from tempest... but which is not at all being chosen for it's effectiveness)

and this still leaves the fact that most of the builds which drow are pretty much guaranteed to at least be *reasonably* suited for (sorcerers, wizards, artificer, and any non-TWF bard) are getting absolutely nothing whatsoever. instead of taking something drow are good at, and making them really good, we're getting something drow are currently pretty bad at. and we don't even know that it will make them good at it - it may very well wind up that it just takes them from "you do realize this is a bad choice for anything other than a deliberately drow flavor build, right?" to "well, i guess it isn't a *completely* bad idea".

but even if it does take drow rogues to a point where they are not a bad choice... are you seriously convinced that a racial PrE which is only particularly good for *one* specific build (and which is sorta decent for a couple of other builds) is the best choice in terms of making the race appealing?

[Chai]

furthermore, no matter how you look at it drow are not 34 point, at least not to a melee (to a class that actually values at least two of dex, int, and cha enough to raise them above 14, sure. to a melee that largely only cares about strength, dex, and con, and largely only cares about getting dex to the point where it qualifies them for certain feats, they're essentially not much better than a 28 point build or in some cases worse than a 28 point build, if a very high con is a priority).

ORLY?

Normal 32 point build human has no penalties or benefits, 32 points to spend.

Other races like halfling have one penalty (str) and one bonus (dex) evening it out.

Drow have 3 bonuses (int, cha, dex) and one penalty (con) - for a net gain of 4 points. Now pay for qualifying for TWF on a drow -vs- say a horc or human. Dex to 15 = 8 points on a horc or human. Its 5 on a drow. Net gain, another 3 points for the drow. What kind of int do you want onthat rogue? Enough to assassinate epic trash? Starting with 16 on a drow costs 4 points less than a human or horc.

Weve already discussed that -2 con doesnt break a build. Its the lack of other things appealing RIGHT NOW that makes them a bad melee race RIGHT NOW - and that is whats CHANGING by them getting tempest, among other things.

20 hit points won't break your build (although, as i have pointed out repeatedly, it is entirely possible for the difference to be 40 or 60). but it sure doesn't help things along any further when you're already suffering.

Which requires AP to be spent - and since everyone has 80 AP to spend, thats called balance. The only people who feel drow are already suffering are the optimizers, who will absolutely not sacrifice anything in order to gain more power in another area. /taps hOrc example yet again. People who are willing to make a 2 con sacrifice will have awesome melee DPS output as a rogue tempest. When the optimizers complain about having to make that sacrifice, I grin, because I know exactly what it indicates - balance.

[Jaid314]

or, as i've pointed out repeatedly, every other DPS melee class and PrE could *also* be getting a boost.

it's ridiculous to assume that devs are going to give rangers a DPS PrE that brings them damagewise up to par with fighters and barbarians when both fighters and barbarians give up having the survivability and versatility of a ranger to get more DPS. the logical conclusion is that fighters and barbarians are going to have their DPS boosted as well, most likely including a boost to their melee PrEs.

we know that tempest is getting improved. we don't have even the slightest reason to believe that none of the other melee PrEs are getting improved, or that ravager won't improve DPS dramatically as well. and in fact, i would say we have every reason to believe that the other PrEs *are* going to be improved.

when we see them all, i will not be surprised in the slightest if drow are still only third-or-fourth-best even in the areas where you are claiming they will reign supreme (frankly, i wouldn't even be surprised too much if fighters and barbarians surpass rogue DPS - which they probably should, since fighters and barbarians don't get evasion, or a crudload of skill points, or up to +75% more healing from scrolls and wands, or UMD as a class skill, etc, which make a rogue much more versatile and self-sufficient than either of those two classes, which silver flame potions can only partially compensate for).

edit: also, your "15 dex, 16 int" assumption seems to preclude someone wanting more than 12 con. most people will. and furthermore, that is precisely *one* melee build that actually benefits from those stats. one. barbarian? the configuration sucks. monk? sucks. fighter? sucks. ranger? sucks even more, because you don't even care about the dex to qualify for feats. paladin? well, it's not complete and utter garbage, since at least it can qualify you for divine might or whatever it is).

[Melcena]

it's all in how much it costs, true.

but it also starts from a higher base. and the base for humans and half-elves is quite a bit higher than the base for drow.

and furthermore, that still presumes that tempest is a better DPS PrE than other DPS PrEs. i see no reason to assume that tempest is going to grant godlike powers, but ravager is going to be a pathetically weak PrE. it is entirely possible that a half-orc ravager version of whatever build would be better DPS than a drow tempest version of that same build. we don't know yet. what we do know is that drow start from a lower point than almost any other race from a melee perspective, and that the devs are not likely to make tempest into some sort of amazing unstoppable juggernaut while leaving every other PrE as nothing more than a pale shadow of what tempest offers. and that if they do accidentally make tempest super-powerful, it will probably be followed shortly afterwards with nerfs that turn it into one of the most pathetic PrEs in the game, if turbine's track record tells us anything.

I'll agree with you there. Personally, I don't care who gets the "best" racial pre. As long as everyone gets something that adds a new twist, i think its good enough for me.

[Chai]

or, as i've pointed out repeatedly, every other DPS melee class and PrE could *also* be getting a boost.

it's ridiculous to assume that devs are going to give rangers a DPS PrE that brings them damagewise up to par with fighters and barbarians when both fighters and barbarians give up having the survivability and versatility of a ranger to get more DPS. the logical conclusion is that fighters and barbarians are going to have their DPS boosted as well, most likely including a boost to their melee PrEs.

we know that tempest is getting improved. we don't have even the slightest reason to believe that none of the other melee PrEs are getting improved, or that ravager won't improve DPS dramatically as well. and in fact, i would say we have every reason to believe that the other PrEs *are* going to be improved.

when we see them all, i will not be surprised in the slightest if drow are still only third-or-fourth-best even in the areas where you are claiming they will reign supreme (frankly, i wouldn't even be surprised too much if fighters and barbarians surpass rogue DPS - which they probably should, since fighters and barbarians don't get evasion, or a crudload of skill points, or up to +75% more healing from scrolls and wands, or UMD as a class skill, etc, which make a rogue much more versatile and self-sufficient than either of those two classes, which silver flame potions can only partially compensate for).

edit: also, your "15 dex, 16 int" assumption seems to preclude someone wanting more than 12 con. most people will. and furthermore, that is precisely *one* melee build that actually benefits from those stats. one. barbarian? the configuration sucks. monk? sucks. fighter? sucks. ranger? sucks even more, because you don't even care about the dex to qualify for feats. paladin? well, it's not complete and utter garbage, since at least it can qualify you for divine might or whatever it is).

Theres no claim for me or anyone else that drow will reign supreme. Theres a claim that the best way to raise rogue DPS is by adding attacks per time unit - which takes further advantage of their HUGE sneak attack damage. The PRE that does just that is tempest.

I dont see full offhand str mod and full offhand proc rate and haste boost being something that will be lower down on the list for a twf barbarian however. The ability to combine damage boost with haste boost is what dethroned hOrcs in burst DPS in the first place. A drow tempest khopesh barb with damage boost and haste boost wont give a fig about 20 less HP, I can assure you that.

And again, more assumptions based on the current game in the quoted text. We arent talking about the current game.

[Jaid314]

And again, more assumptions based on the current game in the quoted text. We arent talking about the current game.

not talking about the current game doesn't mean everything is going to work out exactly the way you imagine it. there will be other DPS PrEs. most likely, they will not be completely useless compared to tempest (which may not even stay the same as the preview, frankly).

and i would still greatly prefer it if the changes they introduce to the game did not generate a great big "was i supposed to care about this" for all except a very specific limited build.

a PrE that has an impact *regardless of your other build decisions* offers something that will be useful no matter what. tempest has an impact IF AND ONLY IF YOU ARE A TWF BUILD. it is complete and utter useless trash to any other build, and you would be an absolute fool for even considering it on any other build. it may not even be appealing after we see the final versions for a TWF build, and it will absolutely be a pile of raw, putrid suck for any other build in the game apart from a TWF melee. how is this hard to understand?

is it *really* that hard to grasp that a racial PrE should be at least a little bit appealing to that race for more than one build?