Drow Tempest in expansion

[Chai]

drow don't take a direct strength penalty, no. but unfortunately, they've got build points tied up in dex (which is ok for TWF), charisma, and intelligence, and then add onto that a penalty to con.

the simple fact that they are a 28 point build when other races can be 32 point build is, in essence, a stat penalty in most cases (the exceptions being when you want to spend significantly in dex/int/cha but aren't planning on spending a lot in con. unless of course you simply only plan on having two stats at all, and one of those is dex, int, or cha while the other is con).

that pretty much fits casters, and some rogues and bards, as well as most artificers.

and they have no other racial abilities to make them good melee DPS other than tempest.

in comparison, half-orc will be getting a DPS prestige as well... plus, they will probably continue to have bonuses with all two-handed weapons, bonuses to strength, more action boosts, and bonuses to power attack (i'm just going to pretend the silly rage when low HP thing doesn't exist, because i'm pretty sure the player base already does that as well). dwarves will presumably still be getting bonus to axes, bonus to con, bonus to combat maneuvers, bonus to HP, bonus to armor use (and AC is on the list of things to look at), and also will be getting a powerful melee PrE (though not as focused on DPS, it will still grant more strength, HP, and saves/damage mitigation). half-elf will likely continue to have access to the dilettante abilities granting either self-healing or sneak attack damage (or self-buffing, etc), human stat and action boost enhancements, heal amp, and the potential to choose from a large list of PrEs from what we've heard. human will start with a bonus feat instead of dilettante, and otherwise pretty much the same thing. warforged will continue to have immunities, more con, power attack enhancements, and (where it matters) the ability to be reconstructed as well as healed (though of course it comes with a heal amp drawback too). and they all can have 4 more build points than an equivalent drow, and don't suffer penalties to *any* melee stat.

drow melee builds are going to continue to be behind the curve for the same reason they are now: anything they have (such as a melee PrE), the other races will have, plus the other races will have more on top of that, while not suffering from having points sunk in low-value (for a melee) stats.

from an optimization perspective, drow are still going to be worse for melee. it will be less of a bad idea to make a drow melee than it is now, but it still won't be a good idea unless you're building for flavor (and yes, if you're choosing to make a drow melee, it *is* for flavor, because if it was for any other reason you'd take a different race. this isn't to say that flavor builds are useless, but they *are* less useful than a build which focuses less on flavor and more on effectiveness).

in addition, last i checked, the drow were *also* known for being pretty awesome casters and clerics in D&D lore. they're known for using lots of poisons, and being assassins. they're known for using crossbows (especially hand crossbows). but mostly, they're not known for those things in eberron as much. in eberron, they're known for using throwing weapons (basically a boomerang) and being savages that live in xen'drik and worship a scorpion god. in the eberron setting, they actually get some pretty cool bonuses for being barbarians, as i recall (including the ability to get free action points every time they rage with the correct feat choice). eberron drow are *not* known for dual-wielding scimitars, or any other weapon, for that matter.

we're getting tempest because of drizzt. let's not try and fool ourselves into thinking it's because it's a good mechanical fit for drow, or because it's what they really needed, or because it's a good lore fit. it's pretty much a marketing decision through-and-through, designed to get people who want to make drizzt clones into the game.

personally, i think it's a very short-sighted decsion, because before long those drizzt clones are going to start to show reduced effectiveness as compared to melees of almost any other race in the game (ok, so they'll probably be similar or maybe even better than elves, and maybe halflings... though halflings get some pretty nice melee perks too).

Drow have been able to use two weapons of equal length regardless of which world setting they belong to since monster manual 1 in first edition, predating drizzt by a long shot.

Drizzt clones are in every MMO - if they want to encourage it in this MMO to make money then they certainly can, but drizzt alone isnt the reason for tempest - all drow can TWF sans penalty with weapons of equal length in old school lore.

Youre trying to compare ravager which none of us currently know anything about to the new tempest which most of us also know very little about, and tell us that automagically drow will be behind the curve.

What I believe is that different combinations of class + race stats will be better off drow -vs- different combinations being better off as other races.

I dont agree with your speculative blanket statement about the entire race. Heres my rogue tempest justification using the same blind speculation about PREs we know nothing about.

When they put crit rage into ravager, rogues will be better off as drow by far. Even if its crit range without having to rage - a PRE that provides more attacks through high doublestrike and 100% offhand proc to a class that hits for 100+ sneak attack damage per hit alone before even factoring in the base damage is going to be better than a PRE which makes the crit range slightly wider.

Drow will be behind the curve? Behind what curve? The pre they get matches how their race plays out as NPCs since ~1983 as far as how you would build one according to this games design. It will likely beat everything else as a rogue when in 0-50% fort situaions. The best way to add melee damage in those situations is to add more attacks per time unit, and tempest does just that.

[Jaid314]

there were no eberronian drow in 1st edition. this is undoubtedly due to the fact that there was in fact no eberron at all until 3rd edition (or at least, not as a commercially available campaign setting... i'm certainly not close enough to keith baker to know if he had originally created eberron way back in the day or not).

as such, it really isn't a question of what 1st edition drow were like. it's a question of what eberron drow are like. and eberron drow are not particularly known for dual-wielding, at least no more so than anyone else.

also, even if tempest winds up being decent for drow rogues (or even good rather than just decent), it still leaves every single other drow build hanging. just about any other build you care to name that is even remotely widely used for drow doesn't care in the slightest what their off-hand proc rate is, or how much damage their off-hand weapon does, because just about the only drow builds that use an off-hand weapon would be just as happy with a light hammer in their off hand as they would be with a khopesh in their off hand, because they're not swinging the blasted thing at anything other than maybe a barrel or a crate anyways (and actually, since they could get rid of that annoying "non-proficient" icon more easily, they'd probably actually *prefer* the light hammer).

now they're not the only race with this problem. frankly, i'm not sure what non-rogue melee class halflings are supposed to combine with assassin (which is why i would personally give them acrobat if i was in charge) apart from monks, for example (and even then, i consider it unlikely they'll have the int to make the best use of assassinate, though the sneak attack and vorpal i'm sure will be appreciated). but it still leaves them screwed over instead of getting something that is actually *gasp* generically useful rather than being only good in one very specific build.

now we can speculate that tempest will be the absolute most amazing DPS PrE out there. one of them has to be "the best" after all. but it really shouldn't be, because rangers are not a pure DPS class. even if tempest *is* all that, it will likely get nerfed because there is no way it should be better DPS than what can come from the classes that *are* pure DPS. but again, even if it is that good and stays that good, to the point of actually making up for all the other ways that drow are DPS-deficient or otherwise lacking in melee benefits, it will only be of value for *one* build. a build which, i hasten to add, very few people are actually even using in the first place.

[Chai]

there were no eberronian drow in 1st edition. this is undoubtedly due to the fact that there was in fact no eberron at all until 3rd edition (or at least, not as a commercially available campaign setting... i'm certainly not close enough to keith baker to know if he had originally created eberron way back in the day or not).

as such, it really isn't a question of what 1st edition drow were like. it's a question of what eberron drow are like. and eberron drow are not particularly known for dual-wielding, at least no more so than anyone else.

Sorry but I disagree. It absolutely matters if they want to stick with the lore.

There was no forgotten realms when 1E was authored either. FR came somewhat later. Drow in the monster manual were not assigned a specific home realm or divided by different campaign settings. The lore is pretty solidly in favor and supports a TWF PRE that allows them to use 2 weapons of equal length sans penalty. Tempest is that PRE and is the perfect choice.

also, even if tempest winds up being decent for drow rogues (or even good rather than just decent), it still leaves every single other drow build hanging.

No it does not. Here you are again making assumptions about information that hasnt even been released yet. Tempest kensai and tempest barbarian will be decent. We do know about full offhand str, and 100 offhand proc, plus the haste boost. Yeah, a barbarian with fighter-esque haste 100% offhand proc and full str to offhand + some doublestrike is going to be behind the curve how again?

just about any other build you care to name that is even remotely widely used for drow doesn't care in the slightest what their off-hand proc rate is, or how much damage their off-hand weapon does, because just about the only drow builds that use an off-hand weapon would be just as happy with a light hammer in their off hand as they would be with a khopesh in their off hand, because they're not swinging the blasted thing at anything other than maybe a barrel or a crate anyways (and actually, since they could get rid of that annoying "non-proficient" icon more easily, they'd probably actually *prefer* the light hammer).

LOLWUT? They would swing their weapons at anything any other builds would swing their weapons at.

now they're not the only race with this problem. frankly, i'm not sure what non-rogue melee class halflings are supposed to combine with assassin (which is why i would personally give them acrobat if i was in charge) apart from monks, for example (and even then, i consider it unlikely they'll have the int to make the best use of assassinate, though the sneak attack and vorpal i'm sure will be appreciated). but it still leaves them screwed over instead of getting something that is actually *gasp* generically useful rather than being only good in one very specific build.

If they didnt tie accrobat to having benefits with the worst two handed weapon, and ONLY that weapon, Id agree. When did staff become halflings weapon of choice? I like assassin, not because halflings are paid killers, but because due to their stature, they have to learn to fight other larger races in a way that they have the advantage, researching anatomy, cunning, guile etc.

now we can speculate that tempest will be the absolute most amazing DPS PrE out there. one of them has to be "the best" after all. but it really shouldn't be, because rangers are not a pure DPS class. even if tempest *is* all that, it will likely get nerfed because there is no way it should be better DPS than what can come from the classes that *are* pure DPS. but again, even if it is that good and stays that good, to the point of actually making up for all the other ways that drow are DPS-deficient or otherwise lacking in melee benefits, it will only be of value for *one* build. a build which, i hasten to add, very few people are actually even using in the first place.

There will be value for many builds, as I outlined.

I dont believe one PRE will be the best. I believe that the way two or more PRE + bonus interact will be what makes different builds powerful. Tempest isnt powerful right now, but if we could combine it with a pure rogue it would be. If we combine it with a pure barbarian it would be.

[Monkey-Boy]

. . . Yeah, a barbarian with fighter-esque haste 100% offhand proc and full str to offhand + some doublestrike is going to be behind the curve how again?

OMG . . . drow might be the best BARBARIAN race?

[Chai]

OMG . . . drow might be the best BARBARIAN race?

Possibly the best TWF barbarian or on par with other TWF barbarian. Depends how ravager stacks up. Depends also on if they institute the loose interpretation of how human and helf will work.

We do know that tempest is getting a haste boost + 100% offhand + doublestrike. We also know that haste boost + damage boost ramps up DPS considerably. Add in 100% offhand str bonus and its a great PRE for a TWF barbarian to stack.

[Battlehawke]

Some pretty good ideas are starting to come up and maybe Drow won't be so gimped..

If they allow you to bypass the feat requirements for Tempest because you are Drow...... that would really make it interesting...

[Shanadeus]

I am really disappointing in the choice of Drow Tempest for Racial line. I hope that they plan on expanding the number of racial PREs at the very least - scorpion wraith seemed so neat, and would actually be useful on a drow.

[Jaid314]

Some pretty good ideas are starting to come up and maybe Drow won't be so gimped..

If they allow you to bypass the feat requirements for Tempest because you are Drow...... that would really make it interesting...

so far, the suggestion has been that if you don't meet the feat requirements, you can still take the PrE... but won't get the full benefits. which parts of the PrE are going to be feat-dependent (and whether they'll go with that model at all in the first place) is still unclear.

[krogyy]

in addition, last i checked, the drow were *also* known for being pretty awesome casters and clerics in D&D lore. they're known for using lots of poisons, and being assassins.

from a game design perspective, the only tabs that can be linked to a race are the melee/ranged ones. caster and monk pres don't work because they contain abilities that require class-specific resources to be used (mana for casters, ki for monks).

so excluding those, which pre would be better suited for drows rather than tempest?

I am really disappointing in the choice of Drow Tempest for Racial line. I hope that they plan on expanding the number of racial PREs at the very least - scorpion wraith seemed so neat, and would actually be useful on a drow.

actually, the tempest tab does not exclude a real racial pre. if you look at some of the mockups they have showed, you can see that even the racial tab have some abilities in the same place where the other tabs have their pres.

[Jaid314]

from a game design perspective, the only tabs that can be linked to a race are the melee/ranged ones. caster and monk pres don't work because they contain abilities that require class-specific resources to be used (mana for casters, ki for monks).

so excluding those, which pre would be better suited for drows rather than tempest?

not necessarily true. for example, if they allowed archmage to actually grant SP to classes with none, imo it would make a pretty decent option for, say, elves (yes, you laugh at first, but consider: illusion archmage *sucks* for a wizard, but imagine it on a fighter. invis, blur, displace spam? sure, not awe-inspiring, but decent. abjuration: shield, resist energy, protection from energy, stoneskin. all very common buff requests... near-useless for a wizard, but pretty appealing for a melee. or heck, even evocation: magic missile, gust of wind, chain missile, fire shield). and for elven caster bards and sorcerers, perhaps artis, and potentially even favored souls and clerics if they're caster-focused, i suspect archmage would be a *very* welcome addition.

furthermore, there are in fact 12 total classes atm, and of those only 4 (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk) don't gain SP. pale master SLAs cost HP, not SP as well, so could be used.

furthermore, this presumes that the racial PrEs must work exactly identical to the class PrEs.

regardless, as i've pointed out, were i making the choices, i'd probably go with ninja spy. ignoring the fact for a second that it is a monk PrE, it just feels like an excellent fit for drow to me (and works very well if you call it "scorpion wraith" when drow take it). allowing the character to have a ki bar shouldn't break anything (in game balance terms; i wouldn't dream of saying it wouldn't break anything in programming terms), it would be useful for a wide variety of builds (what with the shadow fade and all). it fits drow because it emphasises short swords, it would allow for better melee builds as well by granting sneak attack, and presumably tier 1 monk strikes and the dark finishers (but not touch of death, which should stay monk only and is not actually a ninja spy ability in the first place). maybe even offer the tier 1 stance special abilities (not the stances themselves, but the stuff like eagle claw strike, 10k stars, etc).

for halfling, i'd pick acrobat. ignoring for a second the nonsensical argument that it only improves quarterstaff use (as if that somehow forces you to use quarterstaves), it offers a move speed increase and immunity to knockdown/trip effects. i can't think of a single build that wouldn't benefit from those two things tremendously. add in the potential for it to grant (instead of merely improving) uncanny dodge clickies and/or showtime clickies, and you get something which has lots of general utility and survival skills.

not sure if there's really anything to be done for half-orcs. i fully expect theirs to be useful only for melees. i'm just not sure there's a better option that isn't likely to be in use elsewhere. that being said, possibilities include warchanter (but without songs, it would have to be revised to grant some of the abilities as clickies or something) and purple dragon knight (i seem to vaguely recall hearing that the PnP version offered party-buffing abilities, and presumably unlike warchanter it won't use bardic music charges).

for WF, i'd choose occult slayer, provided the new PrE (which we haven't seen yet) provides plenty of useful protections from "occult stuff" (save bonuses, stacking elemental resists, or absorption like from fire shield or the ring of the djinni, 3.x stalwart (it's like evasion, but for fort/will save spells), possibly even the option for immunity to certain spells like magic missile & co, would be examples of what i'd be looking for).

dwarf is probably fine with stalwart defender. a bit bland, but i fully expect we'll be seeing an abundance of earth stance stalwart defender monk tanks already, and we may even see some arcane tanks as well (if WF isn't changed away from stalwart, i expect the vast majority of arcane tanks to be WF instead).

elf, i basically already outlined above. tweak archmage to grant SP to those without SP (and caster level = character level) and i think it would provide some interesting options (of course, you'd have to remove the feat requirements, while still allowing the SLAs). arcane archer can stay as well, but frankly ever since half-elf came along, the elven arcane archer has largely gone into hiding. probably because they're afraid of getting sneak attacked by manyshotting half-elf arcane archers with rogue dilettante or something like that.

human and half-elf, well... from what we've seen, they're not gonna be hurting. except maybe from the overload of options.

so there you go. that's how i'd do it, at least.

[Melcena]

Barbarians arent any more or less tribal than rangers. Take the gutbuster brigade for instance. Drow favor dex, int and cha racially and you want them to be barbarians?

From what we've seen in the enhancement thread on tempest, drow fits tempest pretty well.

I think stormreach would collapse in upon itself and fall into the sea before she allowed a horde of heavily armed and armoured, stinking, semi-permanently drunk drow elves through her gates.

Now, on a side note, I think that some of us are getting a bit sidetracked. The drow EB, over FR, are far more savage, having been enslaved to the giants in history. Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but I paid fairly close attention to the quests I was running, throughout the game. Most of the drow were savage, so either a barbarian or a ranger prestige class could be understandable, considering that you see more than a fair few drow shamans running around. Also, they tended to either use a bow, two weapons, or carried a staff or just cast spells at random. Now, with this prevalence of drow wielding two weapons, i can understand the desire in the designers to make drow get the tempest as a prestige, though it most likely will be called something else.

Scimitars+Drow=Horrible Parody. This, most of us have seen widely and can relate a horrible experience with trying it ourselves, or talking to someone who tried to do it. Now, drow don't get scimitar proficiency, as I recall, as a base trait, so that will probably discourage many people from using a feat to invest in a parody build. I have read many people saying they want a drow assassin over tempest, thinking drow are just so devious. There is nothing to say that a drow wielding who wields a pair of shortswords or rapiers is not an assassin. As I recall, they do happen to have shortsword bonuses, and a few new interesting epic shortswords that are out, that tend to make things cry shortly before they die...

Honestly, I am neither for nor against the idea of the drow recieving the tempest prestige as a racial. Honestly, I think it would bring in a little variety. Think of the variety of new builds that could result. Drow tempest/rogues, tempest/paladins, tempest/barbarian, or even a form of tempest/healer or tempest/caster. Honestly, I find the prospect of winding up at end game standing shoulder to shoulder with a couple more drow with nasty tricks up their sleeves to be quite fun and entertaining. Afterall, no one messes with that quiet halfling in the corner sharpening his daggers. Don't you think that its about time for others to earn some kind of decent self pride?

[FranOhmsford]

not necessarily true. for example, if they allowed archmage to actually grant SP to classes with none, imo it would make a pretty decent option for, say, elves (yes, you laugh at first, but consider: illusion archmage *sucks* for a wizard, but imagine it on a fighter. invis, blur, displace spam? sure, not awe-inspiring, but decent. abjuration: shield, resist energy, protection from energy, stoneskin. all very common buff requests... near-useless for a wizard, but pretty appealing for a melee. or heck, even evocation: magic missile, gust of wind, chain missile, fire shield). and for elven caster bards and sorcerers, perhaps artis, and potentially even favored souls and clerics if they're caster-focused, i suspect archmage would be a *very* welcome addition.

furthermore, there are in fact 12 total classes atm, and of those only 4 (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk) don't gain SP. pale master SLAs cost HP, not SP as well, so could be used.

furthermore, this presumes that the racial PrEs must work exactly identical to the class PrEs.

regardless, as i've pointed out, were i making the choices, i'd probably go with ninja spy. ignoring the fact for a second that it is a monk PrE, it just feels like an excellent fit for drow to me (and works very well if you call it "scorpion wraith" when drow take it). allowing the character to have a ki bar shouldn't break anything (in game balance terms; i wouldn't dream of saying it wouldn't break anything in programming terms), it would be useful for a wide variety of builds (what with the shadow fade and all). it fits drow because it emphasises short swords, it would allow for better melee builds as well by granting sneak attack, and presumably tier 1 monk strikes and the dark finishers (but not touch of death, which should stay monk only and is not actually a ninja spy ability in the first place). maybe even offer the tier 1 stance special abilities (not the stances themselves, but the stuff like eagle claw strike, 10k stars, etc).

for halfling, i'd pick acrobat. ignoring for a second the nonsensical argument that it only improves quarterstaff use (as if that somehow forces you to use quarterstaves), it offers a move speed increase and immunity to knockdown/trip effects. i can't think of a single build that wouldn't benefit from those two things tremendously. add in the potential for it to grant (instead of merely improving) uncanny dodge clickies and/or showtime clickies, and you get something which has lots of general utility and survival skills.

not sure if there's really anything to be done for half-orcs. i fully expect theirs to be useful only for melees. i'm just not sure there's a better option that isn't likely to be in use elsewhere. that being said, possibilities include warchanter (but without songs, it would have to be revised to grant some of the abilities as clickies or something) and purple dragon knight (i seem to vaguely recall hearing that the PnP version offered party-buffing abilities, and presumably unlike warchanter it won't use bardic music charges).

for WF, i'd choose occult slayer, provided the new PrE (which we haven't seen yet) provides plenty of useful protections from "occult stuff" (save bonuses, stacking elemental resists, or absorption like from fire shield or the ring of the djinni, 3.x stalwart (it's like evasion, but for fort/will save spells), possibly even the option for immunity to certain spells like magic missile & co, would be examples of what i'd be looking for).

dwarf is probably fine with stalwart defender. a bit bland, but i fully expect we'll be seeing an abundance of earth stance stalwart defender monk tanks already, and we may even see some arcane tanks as well (if WF isn't changed away from stalwart, i expect the vast majority of arcane tanks to be WF instead).

elf, i basically already outlined above. tweak archmage to grant SP to those without SP (and caster level = character level) and i think it would provide some interesting options (of course, you'd have to remove the feat requirements, while still allowing the SLAs). arcane archer can stay as well, but frankly ever since half-elf came along, the elven arcane archer has largely gone into hiding. probably because they're afraid of getting sneak attacked by manyshotting half-elf arcane archers with rogue dilettante or something like that.

human and half-elf, well... from what we've seen, they're not gonna be hurting. except maybe from the overload of options.

so there you go. that's how i'd do it, at least.

Back in 2nd Ed. Drow had a few spell like abilities {Off the top of my head - Darkness, Faerie Fire, Levitate etc.}.

Considering the above I feel that Archmage would be a superb racial pre for Drow - Elves on the other hand had zero spell like abilities racially.

I would personally like to see Arcane Fluidity boosted so as to give Elven Casters full Armour use up to Mithral Full Plate {Mithral being the operative word for Metal Armours of all types}.
As for Elven Racial Prestiges - We're probably stuck with Arcane Archer but Tempest would fit for an Elven Melee build.

In my opinion giving Warforged Stalwart destroys the benefit Dwarves get from that same Pre - Kensai would fit Warforged much better anyway.

I like the idea of giving Halfling Acrobat or Rogue Mech as opposed to Assassin.

I'm happy with H-Orcs getting Ravager.

I'm OK with Humans getting a choice of PreS - I still want to play a Radiant Paladin.

H-Elves are too powerful as is - This race should not get a racial pre as their benefits stem from being good at many things rather than great at one.

Dwarves = Stalwart = Perfection.

[Xyfiel]

Jaid314 have you thought about the fact that to balance the melee+ranged vs caster problem the devs are making all racials melee or ranged effectively giving them the ability to have 1 more Pre to balance the power?

[Failedlegend]

Back in 2nd Ed. Drow had a few spell like abilities {Off the top of my head - Darkness, Faerie Fire, Levitate etc.}.

Considering the above I feel that Archmage would be a superb racial pre for Drow - Elves on the other hand had zero spell like abilities racially.

I would personally like to see Arcane Fluidity boosted so as to give Elven Casters full Armour use up to Mithral Full Plate {Mithral being the operative word for Metal Armours of all types}.
As for Elven Racial Prestiges - We're probably stuck with Arcane Archer but Tempest would fit for an Elven Melee build.

In my opinion giving Warforged Stalwart destroys the benefit Dwarves get from that same Pre - Kensai would fit Warforged much better anyway.

I like the idea of giving Halfling Acrobat or Rogue Mech as opposed to Assassin.

I'm happy with H-Orcs getting Ravager.

I'm OK with Humans getting a choice of PreS - I still want to play a Radiant Paladin.

H-Elves are too powerful as is - This race should not get a racial pre as their benefits stem from being good at many things rather than great at one.

Dwarves = Stalwart = Perfection.

You know what fits all of the above even BETTER

Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender and Runesmith
Halfing: Talenta Outrider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly

[FranOhmsford]

You know what fits all of the above even BETTER

Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender and Runesmith
Halfing: Talenta Outrider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly

If they were to bring in mounts for Halflings my Paladin would be seriously miffed.

I'm assuming a number of these are Eberron specific {Never heard of most of them}.

Bladesinger would be a dream as would infiltrator {fighter/mage/thief}.

Dwarven Defender - Stalwart is already there - Just please don't ruin it by giving it to Warforged too.

I suppose they could build a new pre for H-Elves based on Dilletante but frankly they already step on Elves toes a bit too much for my liking so a large boost to purebreeds would be needed too in my view.
We have Elfcrafted Plate Armour from Gianthold - +3 Mithral Full Plate {Min Lvl 10} with Arcane Lore and Minor Spell Pen VII on it.
Elves should have far more options like this to cast while actually wearing Armour.
I'd love to see an option to upgrade said armour similar to Lordsmarch or Red Fens as a character levels from 10-13-16 if possible. {Let's face it you're lvl 15 before you get to make it - it's bound to character so basically a TR Armour - Why not make it upgradeable each life?}.

[Jaid314]

Jaid314 have you thought about the fact that to balance the melee+ranged vs caster problem the devs are making all racials melee or ranged effectively giving them the ability to have 1 more Pre to balance the power?

rumor is that they were considering a 3 PrE limit. if they were considering that limit, then no... i don't think they were planning on using racials to improve melee and ranged more than casters. because with a 3 PrE limit, your melees would get access to 3 PrEs already just from their single classed, and the caster classes would get 3 PrEs simply from caster classes.

note: i'm not saying that they *are* going to limit to 3 PrEs, just saying that if they were considering it (and they've said they were), that shows that more PrEs is not how they intend to balance melee/range vs casters. not to mention that i doubt most builds will be able to really max out a full 3 PrEs to begin with...

[Failedlegend]

If they were to bring in mounts for Halflings my Paladin would be seriously miffed.

I honestly don't think mounts would bring much to this game..I'd rather see the Talenta Outrider have a Dino as a companions (a la Arty Dog)...I'd also love to see Pally's get Celestial Tigers or something

I'm assuming a number of these are Eberron specific {Never heard of most of them}.

Well I know Talenta Outrider is.

Bladesinger would be a dream as would infiltrator {fighter/mage/thief}.

DnD Elves IMHO have always been the type to Mix Steel and Magic..I think Bladesinger would be perfect along with the already popular AA

Dwarven Defender - Stalwart is already there - Just please don't ruin it by giving it to Warforged too.

I actually really like Runesmith but it's Dwarven Defender you can't not give it to them lol...As for WF giving them the option to shed or embrace their construct nature would be awesome.

I suppose they could build a new pre for H-Elves based on Dilletante but frankly they already step on Elves toes a bit too much for my liking so a large boost to purebreeds would be needed too in my view.

New H-Elf PrE...Plastic Surgeon..he'd make billions lol

Seriously though I really do think it would be cool to give H-Elves access to any Class PrE based on the Chosen Dilly it just makes sense...I also think they should get a different ranged PrE than Elves but they seem few and far between. Speaking of ranged PrEs Ranger really shouldn't have AA it doesn't suit the class at all...I'd rather they get the Beastmaster PrE (Focuses on Animal Companion, Tracking Skills & Terrain mastery...similar to Monk "Ways") than give DWS a much needed boost so it becomes the definitive Ranged PrE for Rangers.

[Xyfiel]

rumor is that they were considering a 3 PrE limit. if they were considering that limit, then no... i don't think they were planning on using racials to improve melee and ranged more than casters. because with a 3 PrE limit, your melees would get access to 3 PrEs already just from their single classed, and the caster classes would get 3 PrEs simply from caster classes.

note: i'm not saying that they *are* going to limit to 3 PrEs, just saying that if they were considering it (and they've said they were), that shows that more PrEs is not how they intend to balance melee/range vs casters. not to mention that i doubt most builds will be able to really max out a full 3 PrEs to begin with...

Why is being limited to 3 matter to anyone other than 6/6/6(+2) builds? A melee will still be able to take a single pre to max, and have his melee racial to add to his power. Even a 12/6/2 build can take a tier II, a tier I, and his racial. A caster other then battlecasters or taking tanking enhancements won't gain that amount of power, hence closing the gap.

As for their intentions for melee, here is part of it, and add in the fact that all racials mentioned are melee/ranged it is simple to see their plan. Melee enhancements will become more varied and cheaper while casters are already seeing things like their +energy/crit/crit chance being separated and costing more. They can't balance the spells without removing them or making the cool downs horrible, so they are balancing via enhancements.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

Cut out some of the irrevalent parts. Bolded important parts.

[krogyy]

not necessarily true. for example, if they allowed archmage to actually grant SP to classes with none, imo it would make a pretty decent option for, say, elves (yes, you laugh at first, but consider: illusion archmage *sucks* for a wizard, but imagine it on a fighter. invis, blur, displace spam? sure, not awe-inspiring, but decent. abjuration: shield, resist energy, protection from energy, stoneskin. all very common buff requests... near-useless for a wizard, but pretty appealing for a melee. or heck, even evocation: magic missile, gust of wind, chain missile, fire shield). and for elven caster bards and sorcerers, perhaps artis, and potentially even favored souls and clerics if they're caster-focused, i suspect archmage would be a *very* welcome addition.

you underestimate the benefits that blue bars will gain from a racial archmage tab, benefits that far, _far_ surpasses what a melee would get. consider a archmage sorc or, even more insane, an archmage fvs: main school evo for super high implosion DC and cheap nukes, secondary school in conj for 3sp heightened webs (!!!) and last but not least, full kinect line for boosting BBs to the lower stratosphere. all that on a divine!!!!

that would be beyond broken.

furthermore, there are in fact 12 total classes atm, and of those only 4 (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk) don't gain SP. pale master SLAs cost HP, not SP as well, so could be used.

doesn't matter. game balance does. better leave casters pre alone.

furthermore, this presumes that the racial PrEs must work exactly identical to the class PrEs.

i repeat myself. we will probably get racial pre in addition to these. what else do you think you will get as automatic bonuses for the racial tab?

regardless, as i've pointed out, were i making the choices, i'd probably go with ninja spy. ignoring the fact for a second that it is a monk PrE, it just feels like an excellent fit for drow to me (and works very well if you call it "scorpion wraith" when drow take it). allowing the character to have a ki bar shouldn't break anything (in game balance terms; i wouldn't dream of saying it wouldn't break anything in programming terms), it would be useful for a wide variety of builds (what with the shadow fade and all). it fits drow because it emphasises short swords, it would allow for better melee builds as well by granting sneak attack, and presumably tier 1 monk strikes and the dark finishers (but not touch of death, which should stay monk only and is not actually a ninja spy ability in the first place). maybe even offer the tier 1 stance special abilities (not the stances themselves, but the stuff like eagle claw strike, 10k stars, etc).

but how would you gain Ki? it is a monk-only resource and it should be kept this way. when you move class features to racial enhanchments you are not just doing an enhanchment revamp, you are doing a game revamp...

tempest is a fine and far simpler choice to implement.

for halfling, i'd pick acrobat. ignoring for a second the nonsensical argument that it only improves quarterstaff use (as if that somehow forces you to use quarterstaves), it offers a move speed increase and immunity to knockdown/trip effects. i can't think of a single build that wouldn't benefit from those two things tremendously. add in the potential for it to grant (instead of merely improving) uncanny dodge clickies and/or showtime clickies, and you get something which has lots of general utility and survival skills.

the question is: why not assassin? halfling are a weak race anyway, it's nice they get a powerful racial pre.

acrobat, while situationally useful, whould be quite weak if you don't use staves.

not sure if there's really anything to be done for half-orcs. i fully expect theirs to be useful only for melees. i'm just not sure there's a better option that isn't likely to be in use elsewhere. that being said, possibilities include warchanter (but without songs, it would have to be revised to grant some of the abilities as clickies or something) and purple dragon knight (i seem to vaguely recall hearing that the PnP version offered party-buffing abilities, and presumably unlike warchanter it won't use bardic music charges).

we don't have info on ravager so i'll not comment on horcs.

for WF, i'd choose occult slayer, provided the new PrE (which we haven't seen yet) provides plenty of useful protections from "occult stuff" (save bonuses, stacking elemental resists, or absorption like from fire shield or the ring of the djinni, 3.x stalwart (it's like evasion, but for fort/will save spells), possibly even the option for immunity to certain spells like magic missile & co, would be examples of what i'd be looking for).

i do agree with you that WF need something else than stalwart defender. not sure if occult slayer is the right choice...

elf, i basically already outlined above. tweak archmage to grant SP to those without SP (and caster level = character level) and i think it would provide some interesting options (of course, you'd have to remove the feat requirements, while still allowing the SLAs). arcane archer can stay as well, but frankly ever since half-elf came along, the elven arcane archer has largely gone into hiding. probably because they're afraid of getting sneak attacked by manyshotting half-elf arcane archers with rogue dilettante or something like that.

human and half-elf, well... from what we've seen, they're not gonna be hurting. except maybe from the overload of options.

so there you go. that's how i'd do it, at least.

absolutely not, reasons have already been given.

[karl_k0ch]

Expansion and New Enhancement System are going to be decoupled. The latter is postponed: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...07#post4407707