Rant about Bravery Bonus

[Bogenbroom]

I fully feel your pain, but, as a multi-boxer, I *love* the Bravery Bonus. Not just because it makes leveling easier, but because it has greatly changed the way I level my guys. It nips the repetition of quests right in the bud. I am not even positive I am leveling any faster, but I am certainly having more fun doing it.

And of, it isn't the ramped up difficulty of running everything on elite, it is purely the effect of never running anything more than once. I can get all of the way to the mid-late teens that way, by which point I am expecting to be repeating things anyway (and will be getting useful/sellable loot and will be pugging more.

[danotmano1998]

The real problem isn't with the Bravery Bonus.
The problem is what people choose to do with it. If it wasn't this particular mechanic, it would be another one and there would be issues with that too.

You can't change people's perceptions by force, nor can you expect them to think the same way. People will do what people will do.

IMO, Bravery bonus is a fantastic addition to the game. I'm not a huge fan of grinding, so once this and the tomes went in, I was all over multiple TR's. To me, it's fun to run the quest the most challenging way and to fail every so often in the attempt. But not everyone thinks the same way, nor should they.

[Varashad]

You have my sympathy TC. It's a nightmare trying to do PUGs sometimes, especially on a divine caster. I now have great respect for anyone who does 5+ lives of divine caster, and has alts for it. The result is an extremely patient, skilled player.

Newbies are going to need healing. They can't afford the 500 CSW pots, 200 heal scrolls and 5 CSW wands that veterans carry. They don't know any better than to charge. It's what their character does best is charge into battle, and swing that axe. In many cases some simple education will fix the problem. In other cases, you just have to get rid of the dead weight and let them die.

Eventually that "super dps, 1337 barbarian is going to realize he needs to slow it down, and let the party support him, and fight next to him. That rogue he only wants to do traps for example. That guy is inflicting more dps than the almighty barbarian because he's sneak attacking. The wizard's webs and discoballs makes the slaughter effortless. It's just a newbie issue. Once they learn how to play better, they stop having these issues.

[Thrudh]

The groups that are asking for clerics specifically for running elite quests are the groups I avoid. Look for the groups running elite that just want you to take care of yourself and it should work out quite a bit better.

I get a lot of clerics and FvS joining my groups when my LFM says "Be self-sufficient - not waiting for a healer"

Ah, the irony.

[Chai]

What the OP is witnessing has nothing to do with bravery bonus. It has to do with people not playing well together.

In the toughest quest difficulties that will wipe groups.

I dont want to see the game returned to a state of no one running anything harder than normal.

[Niv-mizzet]

I wish they'd make bravery a completely flat bonus and just remove streaks.

It is hard enough to get groups together, we don't need more things discouraging them.

Allow me to elaborate:

-Did elite brave GH tor, no dragons. waited a bit to get 4 people and just ran with a hire.
Afterwards, changed the lfm to norm for dragons. THREE TIMES divines joined us, then said "oh its not on elite, sorry on streak" and left. Although one of them asked us to recall out and do it elite first and then he'd come help on dragons.
And yes I specifically changed the difficulty selection AND the memo to norm. Nothing on the lfm suggested elite. I always make sure my lfm post is accurate.

Not only do we run into the situation where people won't group because of their precious streak...I also run into people DAILY that totally misunderstand what breaks your streak in the first place. Generally I'm able to correct them if they're already in the group, but if they're not, and they didn't join because they thought their streak was in jeopardy, then no one is there to correct them. Another possible party member turned away.

Every day its a different one, but I've seen people start to drop group "because the streak would be broken" because:
-someone BELOW the quest level joined the group.
-someone brought out a hireling
-the person in question has already done the quest before and believes he can't repeat without breaking streak.
-the quest is being run on norm/hard with someone ABOVE the bravery level.
-the quest is being farmed on norm after one elite run, and the person (who was in the elite run) thinks his streak will be broken.
-All the optionals aren't being done. (yes I've seen a guy swear up and down that not doing all optionals in a quest breaks your streak. And MEW is totally under that truck and Aeris can totally be revived. Gullibility is funny. )

I'm sure I've seen more but I can't think of them at the moment.

But anyway, if the elite bravery flat bonus were increased a modest amount, and streaking was simply removed, I would be happy.

[Glenalth]

I get a lot of clerics and FvS joining my groups when my LFM says "Be self-sufficient - not waiting for a healer"

Ah, the irony.

And they're definitely the best groups to join on a cleric or FvS as they're not the ones that are going to be upset if you actually spend your spell points on killing/disabling enemies instead of having to heal the entire time.

[simo0208]

I LOVE the bravery bonus. I'm on my 4th life at this point and I can TR now about once every 3-6 weeks depending on how much I play. With the tome of learning providing another 20% for this toon, it's smooth as can be. When I post LFMs, I post only BYOH (Bring Your Own Heals), even if a divine joins. I'd rather have them Blade Barrier or use other spells then worry about healing. The random life-saving heal and in case of emergency raise or something like that is much better.

[Flavilandile]

Im on a third life and with the BB elite streak that has meant very little repetition in leveling so far. Which in my opinion is a good thing.

[snip]

My toon is currently level 13, banking 14, with a streak of 126 or so quests. So at 13, I am starting to run level 11 quests. Maybe that might be a solution for people having difficulty running elite? Select a group in which the majority of people are one or two levels above the normal base level of the adventure. Then maybe the toons in the group would be a little better able to deal with the mobs you are facing.

Once upon a time, with the old old system you wounldn't have needed to repeat quests even with a third life TR.

Why ?

Because you wouldn't have needed to bank levels either...

Why ?

Because once you left the lower harbour ( now Korthos ) you would have done quests 3/4 level above your level for a +50% ( or more ) bonus to the total XP of the quest.

The real problem isn't with the Bravery Bonus.
The problem is what people choose to do with it. If it wasn't this particular mechanic, it would be another one and there would be issues with that too.

The old mechanism had it's own problems ( VON3 at LVL 5/7 on Normal, Gianthold at LVL 8/9 [ Think Madstone at LVL 8/9 meant 50 to 70KXP on NORMAL ], Tempest Spine at LVL 5/7 Normal... ).

That's why there's areas level restricted... when they discovered that GH was farmed ( just after it was put in game ) by characters that were way under the level of the quests, they initiated the level lock.

So once upon a time it was difficult to find groups doing quests on normal at level because everybody was doing quests 2, 3, 4, 5+ levels above their level... Now with the bravery things are reversed... people are doing quests 2 level below their level ( on elite... which by the way supposedly means normal at level )

[quickgrif]

Bravery bonus broke a lot of things.
LFMs are down partially due to that, and while I never pugged much with my clerics before I do not pug at all now because of the above. ( along with a lot of other clerics that saw the writings on the walls )

I still wonder why they couldn't bring back the old system ( XP Debt for death/XP Bonus for doing quests way above the party level ) that I find better than that half baked bonus.

XP debt for death would not work well now, try selling a game to new players that punishes you by taking (sometimes more than you made in that quest) xp for getting killed while learning. In fact this would further force solo running of elite material or grinding normal multiple times till your eyes bleed like it was before BB. There was a reason they got rid of it.

[sirgog]

I see sirgog's point about formerly running things on normal only. (Part of that, though, was the lack of real incentives for hard and elite. Increasing the first time bonuses to 40%/80% all by itself is a help. Also, things like increasing Shroud part V chests on hard/elite help (they should do more of that).

However, I now sometimes see the opposite dynamic. People wanting to run things on elite, nothing else. I've set up lfm's for hard as a healer, and had people join and pester me to do elite. "But it's better xp!" "I'll lose my streak" "Aw, don't be afraid, we can do it"

I get tired of the back and forth. I get tired of having to defend wanting a quick completion sometimes (and sometimes that's all I have time for). I get tired of explaining xp per minute. I have no desire to explain to the party of 150 hp puggers brought up on "elite is better" that no, doing von3 on elite with no deathblock items (let alone neg level absorption items) is a bad idea. For the majority of the pugging public (not the majority of this forum), first time hard gives better xp per minute than first time elite, and is still a challenge.

Of course, my real answer is "I just want to have a smooth run. I don't have the time to turn a 25 minute quest into a painful 60 minute affair that involves raising the 125 hp rogue half a dozen times. I am happy to go through a stack of scrolls, and maybe even a potion or two, on the truly hard stuff and raids. I have no interest in doing so just because a random pug that believes elite is the only option doesn't know when it is in over its head."

My simple response:

If you don't understand how the bravery streak bonus works, Elite is not for you.
If you do understand it, you have no issues with breaking streak at any time if it means getting a completion of a quest with non-joke XP that you otherwise would not have done.
Anyone that is PUGging an elite streak beyond level 14 or so is either doing abnormally easy elite quests (Gianthold, IQ, DD, in a good PUG add Vale walkups, Orchard and one or two scattered other quests like Prey) or is sacrificing XP for the explicit purpose of showing off. Or otherwise they just do not have the foggiest idea what they are doing.

[Nysrock]

I must of had some extremely good luck. My main is on his 3rd life and at level 18 with a streak going that is at 197 atm. While I am getting at the point were I will have to stop trying for the streak I must say it hasn't been that painful to maintain.

I know that while running Rainbow for streak we had no healers and yet had no trouble with self heals. Then on Coal Chamber and Devils we used a hireling and still had smooth runs.

When I streak I look at who else is in the party, their levels, the quest level and the party makeup. You can usually spot a wipe coming just by looking at what classes/level is in a party trying for Elite on certain quests.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

and if anyone tries to hijack it and make it elite

This is possible ???

So, someone with a very high level would hijack a "casual" PUG (just take this as an example, although it is unrealistic), switch over to "Elite", watch as everything gets wiped except the own character, and then takes the loot from the end reward chest ???

bravery bonus is not a problem
but..........there are no more lfm on normal.
i know..........start your

And I guess that everyone who doesn't want to join PUGs that are on "normal" difficulty just says this but doesn't do it ?