Haste Pots and Clickies -- Kindly Use Them

[Missing_Minds]

you are saying melee alacrity... slows you down???

You sure you didn't screw up your numbers?

[TPICKRELL]

you are saying melee alacrity... slows you down???

You sure you didn't screw up your numbers?

I could have screwed up the numbers, but these are net damage, not total damage numbers, I was trying to isolate how much damage the haste contributed. Melee alacrity item (10% enhancement that doesnt stack with haste) doesn't gain as much from haste as someone without alacrity. I threw this in, because most of my toons have an alacrity effect of some sort... fabricators set, or monk wind stance or...

[Pomdude]

Casters haste / Clerics heal / Rogues do traps and Bards well they come along.
Not sure what the issue is ?

If it is about rudeness then fair enough.

Pugs are harder to work with but when we used to do Guild runs the caster would keep us hasted and we knew to gather a few secs before it was running out and the cleric would mass heal when we needed it. We watched each others backs. Never needed pots - this included mneumonics for spell users as everyone played to their strengths - wisely. A good leader and people who can listen will get this done in a pug.

Why give an awesome spell to a caster and not use it? Constantly amazes me that I have to ask for haste - should be the last spell a caster does and then we all go at the same speed / attack faster thereby reducing need for healing and keeping us grouped better.
I take the point that multiclass casters may struggle with spell choice but really you are in a group - haste !

Clerics should heal. This does not stop them doing anything else they want to do but keep us alive (if we are not playing stupidly) surely this makes perfect sense. More people alive - more chance of completing a quest.

To me if you join a group then have spells or do what you can on your toon to help the group. I keep heal scrolls / raise scrolls / wands on any toon I can regardless of class but these are for emergencies. I have solo healed a reaver on elite on a pally and it was not fun. Yes doable but when you have a cleric in the group ....

I have used infinite haste pots when I solo - no issue with cash but it is cumbersome and pointless if you have a caster in the group or am I missing something here?

I will always thank for buffs and offer to pay for scrolls / give mana pots at will.

Anyway play whatever way you want. Play with me and if on a caster you will always get haste and whatever buffs are needed / on a healer you will be healed and buffed. I cannot see sense in not.

[varusso]

Oh for the love of god, this AGAIN? I didnt realize it was that time of the week already. Seriously, just cast the rage/haste and get over it.

Pots are expensive and crappy, and their low duration requires too much upkeep. Pots are for soloing, or for when you dont get off your lazy ass and gather up when the arcane is casting it.

Any decent arcane can do their CC (or DPS) and still keep rage/haste up just fine. Past lvl 12 or so -- before that, SP can be a bit iffy. Cast them at choke-points such as doorways or at chests, or when the group is gathered up fighting mobs. Let everyone know at the start of the quest what you will be doing, and if they cant make the minimal effort to gather up for it when you cast it, THEN they can do without or suck a pot.

Personally, I carry a few clickies of each on my non-arcanes, as well as some pots as backup when the clickies run out. Mainly because I solo alot, and I dont feel like arguing with the "new breed" of arcanes that act like a spoiled brat whenever someone has the audacity to actually ask for rage or haste.

And yes, I play arcanes extensively. Every one of them carries extended rage and haste. I keep the party in red and green, but I wont chase someone down for the privilege of buffing them. Just like my healers, stay in range if you want it, or suck a pot.

[DrawingGuy]

I have to agree Haste pots are a general waste. The time I spent chugging them I'm not hitting, so they already lose a chunk of advantage they would supposedly have. And by the time I haste clicky > madstone > rage > frenzy > frenzy, it only has 15 seconds on it.

Now days I only chug haste pots as I run to a boss or big group of enemies. It runs out, whatever. Even level 20 extended haste only lasts 4 minutes, so I never consider it something to attempt to have 'perma-buffed' and thus have never once asked for it. The only buffs I ever ask for:

GH - That's +4 to hit and +4 skills.
Blur - Not getting hit 20% of the time is an obvious advantage
Deadly/DR Breaker - More DPS or allows me to use a better weapon in a situation.

Phaw at using your own clickies (unless arti) and pots for haste. Phaw at asking for haste. Got a nice group of melees beating on a boss, toss that bone. Already grouped for other buffs? Sure. We're fighting trash and you're standing alone asking for haste? Eff you. Why aren't you using this time hitting mobs already? And if you're already hitting mobs calling for it, depends if I'm busy or not and have plenty of SP.

[EllisDee37]

A level 20 TWF melee with no alacrity item nets around 1250 damage over the course of a 30 second hsate pot.

The same melee with an alacrity item still nets around 700 damage over the course of a 30 second haste pot.

The same meleee with the haste coming from someone else results in 1500 over the 30 seconds without alacrity and 1000 with alacrity.

If unbuffed damage is x, alacrity = 1.1x and hasted = 1.15x.

If haste adds 1250 that means 1250 is 0.15x. That puts the base damage at 8333. Alacrity adds .1x, so 8333*.1 = 833, not 700. (Just by eyeballing it, haste should add half again what alacrity adds, since 15% is half again 10%.)

8333 Base
9167 Alacrity
9583 Haste

I dunno, that bonus over alacrity strikes me as meh. As for the argument that alacrity takes up a valuable gear slot, I already plan to have that item (set) for the 25% exceptional fort anyway. (And I level with a crafted melee alacrity trinket, ML1.)

[azrael4h]

*snip*

Shouldn't you be munching metal somewhere?

Seriously, look at Haste as a damage spell. With your average melee group, you will do more damage over time than pretty much any other level 3 spell, for far less sp. The better the melee in your group, the better the sp/damage efficiency is.

There are certain spells which if you don't carry, you're foolish. Resist Energy is the best level 2 healing spell in the game. Over time, you will "heal" more damage with proper resistances than you will with Cure Critical Wounds, forget Moderate. Haste is the best level 3 damage spell. And so on.

That said, if you miss it, deal with it. I throw Haste and Rage when the group is together, and don't chase anyone. Whine about it, you get Grease instead. There's a line between "Contributing Caster" and "Worthless Buffbot". Throwing Haste and Rage doesn't make you a buff bot. Not throwing Haste and Rage doesn't make you a Contributing Caster.

[oogly54]

If unbuffed damage is x, alacrity = 1.1x and hasted = 1.15x.

If haste adds 1250 that means 1250 is 0.15x. That puts the base damage at 8333. Alacrity adds .1x, so 8333*.1 = 833, not 700. (Just by eyeballing it, haste should add half again what alacrity adds, since 15% is half again 10%.)

8333 Base
9167 Alacrity
9583 Haste

I dunno, that bonus over alacrity strikes me as meh. As for the argument that alacrity takes up a valuable gear slot, I already plan to have that item (set) for the 25% exceptional fort anyway. (And I level with a crafted melee alacrity trinket, ML1.)

If you are planning on having that on at end game as a melee you need to re-access your gear. Ravager set, beserker set, etc. are all better for DPS BECAUSE CASTERS CAST HASTE!!!!

[EllisDee37]

If you are planning on having that on at end game as a melee you need to re-access your gear. Ravager set, beserker set, etc. are all better for DPS BECAUSE CASTERS CAST HASTE!!!!

How's your exceptional fort?

EDIT: Also, it's hard to take you seriously when you say I should rethink my bracers/gloves because of a conflict with belts/rings. But your frothing rage is funny, at least.

[NaturalHazard]

amen op.

The people I can't stand the most are the ones that miss my gather for hage comments then demand I cast the spells again just for *them* then scream when I say drink a pot till the next gather for hage. I will not chase you down to buff you esp when your running away from the party. I will not keep track of 11 different buff bar timmers, I only do this for *tanks* tanking a particular boss. If you expect this kind of treatment get a in game hireling or another player who doesnt mind being your in game B****. Im here to have fun and help *us* the party get the objective done not serve you on bended knee. Does my lord require another hage?

[Raithe]

If unbuffed damage is x, alacrity = 1.1x and hasted = 1.15x.

If haste adds 1250 that means 1250 is 0.15x. That puts the base damage at 8333. Alacrity adds .1x, so 8333*.1 = 833, not 700. (Just by eyeballing it, haste should add half again what alacrity adds, since 15% is half again 10%.)

8333 Base
9167 Alacrity
9583 Haste

I dunno, that bonus over alacrity strikes me as meh. As for the argument that alacrity takes up a valuable gear slot, I already plan to have that item (set) for the 25% exceptional fort anyway. (And I level with a crafted melee alacrity trinket, ML1.)

He is including the time it requires to drink the pot in his calculations. Otherwise there would be no difference between the haste coming from the pot and the haste coming from someone else.

My thoughts on the matter: if you don't like giving haste out to your teammates, then don't group with other people. The only content that really requires using a team in this game is Epic and raids, and if someone isn't hasting, raging, AND displacing when useful in those - well, you aren't worried much about efficiency, completion, or costs anyway.

I generally haste anyone who seems to be moving slower than 40% striding anytime they are within range. Even if they are by themselves. Sometimes I'll bother to move next to them if I'm not in a hurry (which is not very often), but the damage mitigation and maneuverability aspects of haste make things run so much smoother that I actually get mildly annoyed when people run off without it.

No one is capable of controlling your spell usage other than you. You DON'T have to supply haste or any buffs if you don't want to, but let's not pretend it's everyone else who is being rude by not maintaining a constant stock of 50+ haste potions for each and every quest. I carry haste pots on my melee, but most of that is intended for situations and quests that require soloing.

All of my characters are designed to run in a group that is comprised of teamwork-oriented players running those exact same classes. In other words, I consider the haste coming from my bard an indirect cast on my kensei.

[Enoach]

In the end it really comes down to this...

Haste from someone that can cast it is a great benefit.

Being perma-hasted is nice, but never needed. Perma-haste usually occurs at higher levels where the spells last longer and Casters have more SP to use.

If you don't have haste and you want haste figure out how to get it - either by convincing someone that can cast it to cast it, or providing alternate sources (Potion or clickie).

On my melee I carry these buffs - Potion/Clickies

• Haste
• Heroism (at level appropriate)
• Barkskin (I never throw a potion away)
• any resist/protection that is higher than I can personally cast/gear for
• Shield of Faith
• Jump
• Invisibility

Why? because while getting these buff from people that want to play as a team is beyond assume, but it doesn't always happen.

The thing that gets me is how much so many complain about the cost of potions, and yet walk right by them on the ground after a broken barrel or crate.


As a caster I carry Haste, rage, blur and displacement as soon as I can, why?

• Haste/Rage directly increase DPS of a melee party.
• Blur directly reduces incoming melee damage, thus saving Divine SP and resources
• Proper use of Displacement on a Heavy Tank or they one that likes to get the whole dungeon mad at them, reduces damage that would otherwise be taken, which means they can deal with the mess they caused longer allowing others to handle the mob 1 at a time. See sometimes buffing the idiot can benefit the whole party.

Honestly with the new meta system setup I have two Haste and Rage spells on my hotbars - 1 set extended and 1 set not extended... Why? because sometimes situations only call for so much, learning when and how long to buff is one of the hardest, yet most rewarding lessons towards proper SP management. The other hardest lesson is learning when and how hard to cast a spell. It great when you can get those big numbers with Maximize and Empower on full tilt. But learning when to use 45 SP for 150 Points of Damage instead of 105 SP for 10,000 points of damage where only 100 was needed is where a true resource concise caster should be focusing.

[icekinslayer]

You haste addicts seriously need to get a melee alacrity item and 30% striders. Once you do, you'll realize that the "most useful buff in the game" isn't all that and a bag of chips.

10% melee alacrity < Haste.
30% strider < Haste.
Single target permanent buffs < AoE.
Any Questions?

[Angelus_dead]

Last life I was a CC-spec'ed wizard, and when I ran with a group there was little that annoyed me more than hearing endless refrains of "haste please" (sometimes even without the "please"). I would voluntarily toss hastes occasionally, and always before important fights if I knew they were coming, but there were certain melee types who expected me to have haste running on them all the time.

It is the responsibility of Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards to keep Haste up on teammates at all times.

That's just how the game design works: other characters don't have reasonable alternatives to a Haste spell. Those players shouldn't have to be asking you for it. In addition, the Wizard should have Haste on himself even if he was solo, so when in a group you'd just have to adjust your behavior to step near other players before refreshing it.

If 1-2 people are off running away when the Haste refresh comes, that's their own problem, and they can be reprimanded for it... but you should still give them Haste when they ask.

[ainmosni]

You haste addicts seriously need to get a melee alacrity item and 30% striders. Once you do, you'll realize that the "most useful buff in the game" isn't all that and a bag of chips.

My main is a melee, and I have never once asked for a haste. I figured out how to make myself run and attack faster without using consumables or relying on a buffbot. You can too.

it's more attack speed, higher run speed, and gives additional armor class, to hit, and saves that stacks with everything.

it's a great buff. but i always supply my own when dealing with a casterless quest or belligerent caster.

[KillEveryone]

It is the responsibility of Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards to keep Haste up on teammates at all times.

That's just how the game design works: other characters don't have reasonable alternatives to a Haste spell. Those players shouldn't have to be asking you for it. In addition, the Wizard should have Haste on himself even if he was solo, so when in a group you'd just have to adjust your behavior to step near other players before refreshing it.

If 1-2 people are off running away when the Haste refresh comes, that's their own problem, and they can be reprimanded for it... but you should still give them Haste when they ask.

Not getting hasted till the next refresh is the reprimand for not grouping when the caster says refreshing. They can drink a pot. If someone wants to play hero for a little bit on their own, it is their problem.

If someone doesn't want to group when tossing mass buffs, that is their problem. I don't have to recast something just because someone wants their own personal attention.

[Cendaer]

Haste:

Use it, don't abuse it.

Don't let yourself become an addict or an enabler.

If you ask me for one, and I can eliminate the threat with another spell for the same amount of SP's, I'm just going to eliminate the threat, and skip the haste.

If I need one, and can't cast it myself, I'm sticking super close to whomever is casting it, and paying attention to my timer so I'm there just before it wears off again.

If not having one kills me, that just means I'm broken and need to re-roll.

[DDOisFree]

I mentioned in another thread that I absolutely will not rage or haste my party until the boss fights in epic big top, snitch and partycrashers. I have no need to, just about all the regular yellow name mobs will be killed by me before the melees get a chance (only assassins manage to get higher than 10 kills in these quests with my caster in the group, everyone else that is melee will only have around 7 kills, while I have over 50).

I got a barb a few runs ago that constantly kept on demanding haste in epic big top. I didn't even have time to read party chat in between anhiliating most of the enemies. He got ****ed off to the point where he said 'Youre a wizard, you're job is to buff and CC, not kill things, you're not a sorc'.

That comment pretty much put him on my ignore list, but that's not all - WE HAD A BARD IN THE GROUP THAT WASNT USING HASTE OR RAGE EITHER!

I told the barb 'if you want rage and haste, ask the bard. His reply was 'A bard has other bard stuff to do like songs, you're a wizard, its your job to rage and haste in epics'.

TBH he must have been an absolute noob cake, and very quickly an ignored noob cake too. He rage quit right after big top, and I replaced him easily and carried on with snitch and partycrashers.

Serioulsy, anyone that demands rage / haste in any of those 3 quests are simply clueless. If you need / want it that bad constantly and all the time, buy some clickies and pots, epic time sender goggles are nice to have.

Oh right, I've stopped passing out GH now as well in simple and easy quests. Go find a planar gird or UMD some scrolls. My rogue UMDs his own GH, Teleport, heal and ressurect scrolls for dead people, plus an epic timesensers for haste, though I dont even need haste on top of my 30% striders for a mech rogue.

As the post above me explained it, I use my SP on what is NEEDED. If my death spells are working, you don't get haste. If my spells aren't sufficient on the mobs, you get haste. Simple to understand.

[ainmosni]

I told the barb 'if you want rage and haste, ask the barb. His reply was 'A barb has other barb stuff to do like songs, you're a wizard, its your job to rage and haste in epics'.

i realize it's a typo, but lol anyway.

[DDOisFree]

Yea sorry, bards and barbs are confusing when typing on a smartphone. I fixed it now.