please critique my human wizard feat selection

[rtayek]

hi, going to roll up a new 32 point human wizard (8-8-18-18-8-8).

i'm a newbie, and will be leveling a new (or level 4 veteran) character (no past lives).

my style of play is conservative (wizards are weak - avoid melee). i will play with a (hopefully) well-balanced group (no soloing).

i do not want to be warforged or concentrate on the necromancy school.

i don't pay anything to play. i do buy stuff from the store sometimes.

my current guess at feat selection (from reading these forums) is:

enlarge
maximize
spell penetration
spell focus (magic missle?)
greater spell focus
extend
spell focus
insightfull reflexes
greater spell focus
greater gpell penetration
spell focus
greater spell focus
?

replace something with heighten at level ?
replace something with quicken at level 20

thanks

[MRMechMan]

My playstyle is a bit different then yours but will try to help give some good general wizardly advice.

Starting stats look OK. Str a bit low so enfeeblement at low levels might be a concern.

For feats, focus on necromancy and go palemaster if you are set on going human. Dump enlarge, get empower.


SF:necro
GSF: necro
spell pen
max
empower
extend
quicken
insightful
toughness
heighten

I personally would get wiz PL feat as well but not an option for you. Also would try for shield mastery and shield proficiency but as you group a lot and seem to have a different playstyle probably not for you either.

So consider

SF:ench.

to get your ench DCs up, which is useful on a first life arcane that groups a lot. That's 11 feats right there.

Then for last feat go either
greater spell pen
or
GSF:ench

depending on the content you run. I would personally go for the greater spell pen but GSF:ench is good as well.

[rtayek]

MRMechMan wrote:

> My playstyle is a bit different then yours but will try to help give some good general wizardly advice.
> Starting stats look OK. Str a bit low so enfeeblement at low levels might be a concern.

yes, but i should have bulls strength or something.

> For feats, focus on necromancy and go palemaster if you are set on going human. Dump enlarge, get empower.

i don't care for the necro school. i plan to use enlarge a lot in my style of play.


> SF:necro, GSF: necro, spell pen, max, empower, extend, quicken, insightful, toughness, heighten


> So consider SF:ench. to get your ench DCs up, which is useful on a first life arcane that groups a lot.
> That's 11 feats right there.
> Then for last feat go either greater spell pen or GSF:ench

ok.

thanks

[Infant]

Hello rtayek,

It would be much easier to give advice if we knew which PrE you are aiming for. PM? AM? Other than that few comments on feats:

I would recommend taking Toughness. Without gear to twink, on a 1st-lifer, you will have problems surviving in high levels.

I would drop Enlarge. I think this meta is very situational.

Take Empower for nuking, with Empower and Maximize, you will have nice DoTs for the endgame raids where you have to kill a boss fast and have to bypass elemental resistances.

Quicken will make your life easier in many cases.

If you want to go AM, you will need MT (otherwise, if you go PM, you will need Toughness for Lich form).

Heighten is a must. No reason to take Spell Focus and not to take Heighten.

You have a lot of SF and GSF feats. I would think that SF+GSF in 2 schools are enough. If you are going for PM, the most common ones are Necro (Prerequisite) and Enchantment for CC. If you go AM, decide which SLAs you want to have and take the SF+GSF in corresponding schools (imo, good choices are Conjuration and Enchantment. Necro is also nice, though the SLAs are meh, if I'm not mistaken. Evocation is sometimes taken for nice cheap Magic Missiles. Not familiar with other schools).

Infant

[rtayek]

Infant wrote:

>It would be much easier to give advice if we knew which PrE you are aiming for. PM? AM?

not pm. not sure about the am.

> Other than that few comments on feats:
> I would recommend taking Toughness. ...

ok

> I would drop Enlarge. I think this meta is very situational.

i expect to use it a lot in my style of play.

> Take Empower for nuking, with Empower and Maximize, ...

seems like that's not so good, it's only a 25% increase if you have maximize. perhaps useful at endgame as you said.

> Quicken will make your life easier in many cases.

i heard it wasn't that important until later levels so i left it to be added at the end.

> If you want to go AM, you will need MT (otherwise, if you go PM, you will need Toughness for Lich form).

i won't go pm. may go am.

> Heighten is a must. No reason to take Spell Focus and not to take Heighten.

i heard that heighten was not that useful until later levels, i was thinking of swapping that one in at the end.

> You have a lot of SF and GSF feats. I would think that SF+GSF in 2 schools are enough.

why not have 3? - there are 8 schools. one could almost have 4.

> If you go AM, decide which SLAs you want to have and take the SF+GSF in corresponding schools (imo, good choices are Conjuration and Enchantment. ... Evocation is sometimes taken for nice cheap Magic Missiles. Not familiar with other schools).

ok

thanks

[MRMechMan]

For AM Necro is still king even if the SLAs are a bit meh. 10sp enervation is the only defendable one.

3sp web with conj is the best choice for 2nd school. Ench is still important but with debuffs 40 DC is plenty. Even 38 is enough for any content if you are geared. Even if you aren't, I would go necro/conj.

Evocation is OK when leveling but at endgame is terrible; DCs are what matter. AOEs are what matter when leveling as well, and the nerfed evoc SLAs are just not as good as they used to be.

But honestly, fleshie AMs is just silly when you can either go WF for same DC (1 less then drow but reconstruct and like 70-80 odd hp) OR palemaster for same necro DC and a TON more survivability. If the OP is set on being human, palemaster just outclasses AM utterly and completely.

Non PM fleshie casters are more viable as sorcs as they can umd with high charisma; fleshie AM wizards generally cannot.

Even if running with groups and not solo, survivability is hugely important, and self healing is the biggest part of that.

Also, since human, you actually get 13 feats, so you can get both GSF:ench AND G spell pen.

[MRMechMan]

For someone seeking advice on the forums, you seem to have a very clear opinion about how you want to build your caster.

Perhaps you were reading a thread titled "How not to build a caster" and there was a small smudge on your computer screen that covered the word "not".

Sadly, a fleshie AM with a 4 school focus that takes enlarge over empower, no heighten or toughness is not very viable. At all.

Again, seriously consider palemaster. As a human it just outclasses archmage.

[rtayek]

For someone seeking advice on the forums, you seem to have a very clear opinion about how you want to build your caster.

Perhaps you were reading a thread titled "How not to build a caster" and there was a small smudge on your computer screen that covered the word "not".

Sadly, a fleshie AM with a 4 school focus that takes enlarge over empower, no heighten or toughness is not very viable. At all.

Again, seriously consider palemaster. As a human it just outclasses archmage.

well, i don't want to be a warforged pale master. my character just isn't like that.

i've been reading the forums for months. it seems very complicated. lots of tradeoffs.

you are probably correct that i have some ideas that are confused.

i have room for toughness and planned to swap in heighten and quicken.

the tradeoffs of having another sf and gsf versus 2 other feats are not clear (to the dummy here).

the sla's are confusing also, since i haven't played a character high enough to know how well they work.

thanks

[MRMechMan]

well, i don't want to be a warforged pale master. my character just isn't like that.

i've been reading the forums for months. it seems very complicated. lots of tradeoffs.

you are probably correct that i have some ideas that are confused.

i have room for toughness and planned to swap in heighten and quicken.

the tradeoffs of having another sf and gsf versus 2 other feats are not clear (to the dummy here).

the sla's are confusing also, since i haven't played a character high enough to know how well they work.

thanks

Maybe you have been reading the forums for a while but whatever posts that told you take enlarge were outdated, told you to take 6 feats worth of spell focus were in jest and told you to go fleshie AM were malicious.

I'm not saying you need to be a warforged pale master.

I'm saying that if you go human, you should go PM. And if you want to go AM, go warforged.

I have never seen a good AM fleshie (a couple OK ones) and giving up self healing as an arcane is, in my view (and probably most people who play casters) unacceptable. It's a large part of the reason to play a caster...if you want to throw that away because of some roleplaying issue, that's on you. But most people, including me, give advice that leads to the strongest and most powerful character.

Now, maybe you don't want to go warforged. That's fine.

Maybe you don't want to go palemaster. That's fine.

But for the love of god pick the sweet sweet poison that is self healing.

You keep saying enlarge is for your "playstyle"...how do you have any idea what that is if you have never played a caster?

I almost think you are trolling. 3 or 4 schools, insisting on human AM (or nothing?!), insisting on enlarge in a wizard advice thread?

If you want advice, come to the forums. However, they don't work very well when you INSIST on gimping yourself with weak feats and prestige choices. Throwing good advice back in people face because you want a flavor build just confuses me.

This is the equivalent of someone looking for a barb build and insisting on warforged without healers friend, taking the improved fortification feat, not taking power attack and wanting to slot improved trip, quickdraw and brutal throw.

I'm happy to help, but you gotta help yourself too man.

[rtayek]

Maybe you have been reading the forums for a while but whatever posts that told you take enlarge were outdated, told you to take 6 feats worth of spell focus were in jest and told you to go fleshie AM were malicious.

I'm not saying you need to be a warforged pale master.

I'm saying that if you go human, you should go PM. And if you want to go AM, go warforged.

I have never seen a good AM fleshie (a couple OK ones) and giving up self healing as an arcane is, in my view (and probably most people who play casters) unacceptable. It's a large part of the reason to play a caster...if you want to throw that away because of some roleplaying issue, that's on you. But most people, including me, give advice that leads to the strongest and most powerful character.

Now, maybe you don't want to go warforged. That's fine.

Maybe you don't want to go palemaster. That's fine.

But for the love of god pick the sweet sweet poison that is self healing.

You keep saying enlarge is for your "playstyle"...how do you have any idea what that is if you have never played a caster?

I almost think you are trolling. 3 or 4 schools, insisting on human AM (or nothing?!), insisting on enlarge in a wizard advice thread?

If you want advice, come to the forums. However, they don't work very well when you INSIST on gimping yourself with weak feats and prestige choices. Throwing good advice back in people face because you want a flavor build just confuses me.

This is the equivalent of someone looking for a barb build and insisting on warforged without healers friend, taking the improved fortification feat, not taking power attack and wanting to slot improved trip, quickdraw and brutal throw.

I'm happy to help, but you gotta help yourself too man.

only a few posts recommended enlarge. i like it because it fits with my style of play. no one told me to take 6 feats of sf, that;s just my silly idea. no one told me to go fleshie, i just prefer human. in fact, most of the recomendations were *for* warforged and pm.

as far as my experience goes, i have very little. i have only gotten one wizard character on table top ad&d to level 5. and might highest character here is a level 6 wizard.

this is not a troll. i don't understand all of the tradeoffs between am and not am.

apologies for any confusion.

thanks

[MRMechMan]

only a few posts recommended enlarge. i like it because it fits with my style of play. no one told me to take 6 feats of sf, that;s just my silly idea. no one told me to go fleshie, i just prefer human. in fact, most of the recomendations were *for* warforged and pm.

as far as my experience goes, i have very little. i have only gotten one wizard character on table top ad&d to level 5. and might highest character here is a level 6 wizard.

this is not a troll. i don't understand all of the tradeoffs between am and not am.

apologies for any confusion.

thanks

It's cool. Sorry if I came across as too harsh as well. I assumed from your join date that you had more experience then you actually do I guess, which is OK. We all start somewhere .

This game is very very different from tabletop and any "playstyles", character builds or other experiences you have there should be forgotten when it comes to ddo. Not many translate well.

Most recommendations were probably for PM or WF as they are best. My advice is pick one or the other. No self healing on a caster is incredibly...unfun.

[Viisari]

I have never seen a good AM fleshie (a couple OK ones) and giving up self healing as an arcane is, in my view (and probably most people who play casters) unacceptable.

Man, what a sad life you must lead, you should switch to a server where people know how to play their arcanes

Though with that said, AM fleshies, while extremely potent, are very difficult to play for new players.

[MRMechMan]

Man, what a sad life you must lead, you should switch to a server where people know how to play their arcanes

Though with that said, AM fleshies, while extremely potent, are very difficult to play for new players.

Awwww did I upset the forumite that has a fleshie AM?

It is just my observation that most AM go WF. Why NOT? Reconstruct and 40-80hp is easily worth the -1 DC that not going human/drow potentially gives. AM fleshies CAN be extremely potent...but WF just outclass them. Completely. It opens up a lot of doors.

SP based healing combined with torc/concops and some DR is just so stupidly powerful that fleshie AM just isn't as good IMO. How does a drow/human AM get back HP? Heal via SF pots=-5 to DCs and slowed. Heal via UMD=rogue splash to lower DCs/spell pen or just needing a stupidly large amount of gear. GOOD LUCK getting to 39 UMD with 1/2 ranks and wizard charisma.

Sorry, but choosing worse healing then any class in the game (even fighters/barbs as they can eat the -10 SF stats penalty easily) when you could have some of the BEST self healing is just a poor poor choice.

Sure, if you have a cleric strapped to your back fleshie AM is ok. But I like building self sufficient characters.

Am I living a sad life because I play with players that, like me, also try and optimize their builds?

Again, I have seen a few good AM fleshies, but they are incredibly rare. Usually they are squishbags that are also unskilled. Skilled players generally go WF, or PM as they know how good self healing is.

There is a reason wf archmages (recon), fleshie/wf palemasters (aura/burst), fleshie sorcs (amp/umd) and wf sorcs (recon) are all popular. They can all self heal. Fleshie AM are not popular for their severe lacking in this category.

[Tid12]

As the others have said, you should totally drop Enlarge, 1 SF and 1 GSF.

You said you dont want to focus on necro school, why the Enlarge then? Most ray spells are enlarged, disintegrate has its range doubled (i see you mentioned magic missile so i assume you like the force line). I really see no point in taking this feat.

Also, you have the focus in 3 schools, mind telling us what schools are those for? I can see GSF: Enchant for the holds and CC and the GSF: Conj for Webs but the other one? Trade one for Empower, that 25% is a more than you think.

Toughness, Heighten are almost a must, you wont hit anything if your spells arent heightened, specially at higher levels.

Toughness is also a must. You said you are a newbie so you havent twink gear, those 42/52 (22 from the feat + the toughness enhanc) will help you really a lot.

[rtayek]

As the others have said, you should totally drop Enlarge, 1 SF and 1 GSF.

You said you dont want to focus on necro school, why the Enlarge then? Most ray spells are enlarged, disintegrate has its range doubled (i see you mentioned magic missile so i assume you like the force line). I really see no point in taking this feat.

Also, you have the focus in 3 schools, mind telling us what schools are those for? I can see GSF: Enchant for the holds and CC and the GSF: Conj for Webs but the other one? Trade one for Empower, that 25% is a more than you think.

Toughness, Heighten are almost a must, you wont hit anything if your spells arent heightened, specially at higher levels.

Toughness is also a must. You said you are a newbie so you havent twink gear, those 42/52 (22 from the feat + the toughness enhanc) will help you really a lot.

the reason for enlarge is to be able to attack the monsters from a safer distance. i like magic missile because it's the spell i am most familiar with from my table top d&d experience.

as far as the 3 or 4 schools, i thought the more the merrier, but i can't judge the tradeoffs due to lack of experience.

i agree that 25% is something, but i don't know how to balance that with another school.

i may take toughness and i had planned on swapping in heighten. i have no gear or tombs.

thanks

[Infant]

No need to start flaming here .

Generally, I agree with MrMech: Selfhealing is a big deal in endgame and while leveling. This is why he recommends either WF AM or PM. Both very survivable. An alternative is to go Wizrogue and pump UMD for Heal Scrolls. But then you lose 2 Spell Pen from caster levels and 1 DC from Capstone and will need gear and/or past lifes to compensate.

However, this is your character, you decide what you want. If you want to play fleshie AM, go for it. You can always respec to PM at higher levels with a GR, if you are willing to pay TP.

As to the PrE: Not very wise to take no PrE at all. Both PM and AM are strong. Here, you can read up on AM enhancements and decide which schools you want to go for:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Archmage_enhancements

Keep in mind: The spell-based SLAs (not Arcane Bolt/Blast) can be metaed FOR FREE. So if you want to go force-based, you can be an Evocation AM and spam Maxed/Empowered/Quickened Magic Missile for 1 SP (warning, this would be considered a flavor choice however).

Concerning Enlarge: tbh, the only use for this spell which I can imagine is to one-shot beholders in quests like (e)VoN3 and invaders. I am sure there are more applications, but it is still very situational. If you don't take it, you can still attack mobs before they aggro on you. With fast movement and jump, you will be able to dodge most attacks.

Empower: Yes, you have it right, it's 25% over Maximize and costs quite a bit. However, you can apply it to SLAs for free (if you decide to go Evocation AM). And, most important, there will be many occasions where you want something killed fast and don't need to conserve SP. It is a very useful meta.

Several Spell schools: Nothing wrong with taking more than two spell schools. If you know why you are taking it and have all the other important feats covered.

Infant

[rtayek]

No need to start flaming here .
...

As to the PrE: Not very wise to take no PrE at all. Both PM and AM are strong. Here, you can read up on AM enhancements and decide which schools you want to go for:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Archmage_enhancements

Keep in mind: The spell-based SLAs (not Arcane Bolt/Blast) can be metaed FOR FREE. So if you want to go force-based, you can be an Evocation AM and spam Maxed/Empowered/Quickened Magic Missile for 1 SP (warning, this would be considered a flavor choice however).

Concerning Enlarge: tbh, the only use for this spell which I can imagine is to one-shot beholders in quests like (e)VoN3 and invaders. I am sure there are more applications, but it is still very situational. If you don't take it, you can still attack mobs before they aggro on you. With fast movement and jump, you will be able to dodge most attacks.

Empower: Yes, you have it right, it's 25% over Maximize and costs quite a bit. However, you can apply it to SLAs for free ...
Several Spell schools: Nothing wrong with taking more than two spell schools. If you know why you are taking it and have all the other important feats covered.

Infant

oh wow, these can be multipy meta'ed for free! i've seen that link before, but had not realized they had no additional spell cost. no wonder everyone has been saying to at least go am. i also see why people take maximize and empower.

if i am reading this right, wizard archmage 1 costs 4 actions points (progression 16). i get 100 more spell points (once). then i pick say evocation which costs me 1 more action point (progression 19) and 25 spell points (once). and then i get a mm for 2 sp forever and can fire a multiply meta'ed mm for 2 sp forever.

and i only get to pick one school of magic to go with the archmage 1.

and archmage 1 requires an sf, and all of wizard intelligence 1, improved concentration 2, wizard energy of the scholar 2, mental toughness. most (all) of these are feats and some (the 2's) look like the have prerequisite feats). so that explains a lot of the feats that i see in recommended builds.

the only thing that is confusing is the progresssion 19 - seems like it should be 17.

if one had enough feats, could you take archmage 1 again and pick a different school?

i am getting a better understanding about this build that insanity made for me: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...d_post_4123014

this raises more questions. i could go all the way to archmage 5 with one school or do a couple or archmage 1 (or ?) in 2 schoold.

thanks

[AylinIsAwesome]

One thing not yet mentioned is you can be a PM and never cast a single Necromancy spell. You may ask if it is worth spending 2 otherwise useless (for you) feats to get self healing: absolutely, unquestionably, 100 times out of 100. In addition to the incredible self-healing ability, you get +60 HP, +2 Intel (universal +1 to DC), and inherent Heavy Fort with Lich form.

Here are the feats I would recommend for you:

1: Toughness, Maximize (Wizard), and Extend (Human)
3: Insightful Reflexes
5: Spell Focus: Necromancy (Wizard)
6: Spell Focus: Enchantment
9: Spell Pen
10: Heighten (Wizard)
12: Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
15: GSF: Enchant and Quicken (Wizard)
18: Greater Spell Pen
20: Empower (Wizard)

If you do really want Enlarge, Extend is the lowest utility feat.

I would take Mental Toughness instead of Extend at level 1. That way Wraith form can be used instead of Vampire form. Then swap it out just before leveling to 18 for Empower, and then taking Extend at 20 if it's really desired.

interesting: being a pm and not casting necro spells. i was not aware of the self-healing. looks like if you cast some aura spells, you get hit points if you are in your dead form or ? - i can see why this is so popular given the byoh mentality of some groups.

i may try one.

thanks

Yes, when in an undead form (Zombie from 6-11, Wraith from 12-17, Lich from 18-20) you can HP back from your death auras.

[rtayek]

I would take Mental Toughness instead of Extend at level 1. That way Wraith form can be used instead of Vampire form. Then swap it out just before leveling to 18 for Empower, and then taking Extend at 20 if it's really desired. ...

Yes, when in an undead form (Zombie from 6-11, Wraith from 12-17, Lich from 18-20) you can HP back from your death auras.

ok, i understand mt.

regarding the undead forms: is there any bad reaction from clerics due to this?

thanks

[AylinIsAwesome]

ok, i understand mt.

regarding the undead forms: is there any bad reaction from clerics due to this?

thanks

If you can keep yourself alive, then probably not. The healing is more of an over-time effect instead of the burst healing from a Cleric/FvS, so it takes some getting used to. Also the death auras are short-duration, so it takes some paying attention to make sure they're up.