Khopesh fix

[Aaxeyu]

Because we have asked for that for 4 years now and it hasnt happened.

Well it has happened, but only in a bad way.

As far as "just silly" - hardly. When the one thing they change regarding generic weapon rules is what breaks the melee game to the point where the same weapon type is always the best, it shouldnt have been changed. When I say this, the well rehearsed "there would still be another best weapon anyway" arguments start flying around, which are completely false. There are situations where scimitar is better than rapier and some where rapier is better than scimitar. There are situations where both are defeated by bastard sword.

What weapon beats a khopesh on a critable mob with 50% fort or less? The only situation where that occurs is bastard sword, on a toon that is so gimp most casters have better strength scores. Not even realistic by any means or stretch of the imagination.

The issue right now is they cant buff anything to exceed khopesh even in some situations, without a huge pile on nerd rage thread happening about all the wasted crafting over the years. This is what happens when they refuse to make quick changes due to gross oversights.

What you said was silly. And it has got nothing to do with "there would still be another best weapon anyway" and everything to do with 'weapon stats are not the only difference between THF and TWF'.

[Aaxeyu]

The issue is no one has to give up any of those feats to take khopesh, which invalidates this stance.

There are not enough good or bettert feats in this game to justify not taking khopesh. I grin each time I see the "feat starved" argument.

The same goes for the other feats you listed aswell. Should they be nerfed? No, that's ridiculous.
As you said, we need more DPS feats to choose from.
Buffing BS and DA would do just that.

[Chai]

The same goes for the other feats you listed aswell. Should they be nerfed? No, that's ridiculous.
As you said, we need more DPS feats to choose from.
Buffing BS and DA would do just that.

They already buffed BS and DA as much as possible. If any one of them is buffed so it exceeds khopesh, let me know in advance so I can put more popcorn on order. Ill be sure to use dump trucks as the standard unit of measurement on the acquisition form.

We need DIFFERENT options, not toying with the same stale options which have been around for years.

Where are my double bladed exotics and pole arms at?

[Chai]

What you said was silly. And it has got nothing to do with "there would still be another best weapon anyway" and everything to do with 'weapon stats are not the only difference between THF and TWF'.

This is not silly, its well known. If you want balance, give us a generic THF weapon, and a generic ranged weapon that does the same level of DPS as khopesh and make each cost a feat.

You will find out how hilarious this issue really is if that ever happens. We are talking about eSOS level weapons being for sale on the AH and on generic vendors, and being able to craft the equivilent in the shroud as a THF weapon, and it costs one feat to use it. I dont even want to know what the stats would have to be on a bow to make it equivilent (well actually id like to see how hilarious that would be, heh).

[Aaxeyu]

They already buffed BS and DA as much as possible. If any one of them is buffed so it exceeds khopesh, let me know in advance so I can put more popcorn on order. Ill be sure to use dump trucks as the standard unit of measurement on the acquisition form.

I disagree.

This is not silly, its well known. If you want balance, give us a generic THF weapon, and a generic ranged weapon that does the same level of DPS as khopesh and make each cost a feat.

You will find out how hilarious this issue really is if that ever happens.

So you are saying that the only difference between THF and TWF is weapon stats?
That's just about the last thing I thought I would hear from you, right before "I was wrong".

[Chai]

I disagree.

So you dont think everyone who build lit2 khopesh over the years would groan if they made a generic weapon type better than khopesh? Id buy stock in popcorn and get rich quick.

So you are saying that the only difference between THF and TWF is weapon stats?
That's just about the last thing I thought I would hear from you, right before "I was wrong".

No, thats not what I am saying.

What I am saying is in order to have real balance between generic weapon types, there would need to be a generic THF weapon that does equivilent damage and costs a feat. We know that the weapon stats would have to be close to eSOS though because when you run those numbers, they are pretty close.

Imagine everyones min2 and lit2 greatswords they made over the years turning into 5d6 base damage weapons that are 18-20 x3 with a +10 enhancement bonus on it, but they cant use it without taking a feat for it.

Someone can take khopesh at level 1, but in order to do equivilent damage built as a THF, you have to farm for one named weapon in the game.

No need to interpret my words, just read whats typed and take it at face value.

[Aaxeyu]

So you dont think everyone who build lit2 khopesh over the years would groan if they made a generic weapon type better than khopesh? Id buy stock in popcorn and get rich quick.

That doesn't make it a bad idea to attempt to buff them more. They are working on GS deconstruct anyways..

No, thats not what I am saying.

What I am saying is in order to have real balance between generic weapon types, there would need to be a generic THF weapon that does equivilent damage and costs a feat. We know that the weapon stats would have to be close to eSOS though because when you run those numbers, they are pretty close.

Imagine everyones min2 and lit2 greatswords they made over the years turning into 5d6 base damage weapons that are 18-20 x3 with a +10 enhancement bonue on it.

Someone can take khopesh at level 1, but in order to do equivilent damage built as a THF, you have to farm for one named weapon in the game.

No need to interpret my words, just read whats typed and take it at face value.

But that is not true at all. Even if all THF weapons did d1 damage with 20x1 crits it could be better than TWF.

[Chai]

BTW, the reason weapons were more balanced in PnP isn't because their stats were different (though the khopesh was so horrible in PnP that no one would ever use it except for flavor)...it's because people did a LOT less damage, could guarantee hitting on a 2, and attacked much less often. In content as "Monty Hall" as DDO (which is almost inevitable in such an old campaign, especially an MMO where metagaming is a valuable skill)...a clear-cut best weapon will emerge simply because all weapons aren't exactly the same.

Not necessarily a clear cut best weapon for every_single_build like the khopesh is right now.

If we had charger builds in DDO, spears and pole arms would be best FOR THEM. They could be balanced so they do equivilent damage to double khopesh users.

A 2 hander with x4 crit like a scythe would turn the tables a bit in certain situations.

Reach weapons would be huge in DDO with the way collision works in this game. Position tanking could be introduced into DDO. Khopesh would not be the best weapon for these builds.

So different builds, different "best weapons" for that build. Not the way we have it right now, which is having one best weapon type that is the highest DPS. In order to do equivilent DPS in the other weapon style you have to farm one single named weapon in the game - and theres people who call this balanced.

[Chai]

That doesn't make it a bad idea to attempt to buff them more. They are working on GS deconstruct anyways...

Im all for it, but every time this has been suggested the people who optimized and crafted only khopesh over the years trembled.

they are working on druids too - since 2007. Once they put deconstruction into the game, all the khopesh moaners arguements will be invalid and they can start introducing other options into the game which equal or even surpass it.

But that is not true at all. Even if all THF weapons did d1 damage with 20x1 crits it could be better than TWF.

LolWut?

[nibel]

@everyone saying "dont nerf melees more" and "up the other 20-and-such weapons to khopesh level":

Don't you all think it's easier to bring khopesh down to the other weapon's power level (being a little better than martial, but comparable), and then rise ALL weapon users a step up with something that will help ALL weapons, instead of mutiplying the khopeshes' power even more?

It's the same problem with manyshot. They can't buff ranged because it will just aggravate the power diference between manyshot and no-manyshot. Manyshot is on the way, and need to be reworked before giving any boost to ranged. Khopesh and melees are on the same boat.

[Aaxeyu]

Don't you all think it's easier to bring khopesh down to the other weapon's power level (being a little better than martial, but comparable.

No, khopeshs power level compared to the good martial weapons is just fine. If it is nerfed it will become a pointless flavour feat. Why do you want that?

[nibel]

No, khopeshs power level compared to the good martial weapons is just fine. If it is nerfed it will become a pointless flavour feat. Why do you want that?

..so, we can get people using picks, hammers, quarterstaffs, longswords, battleaxes, and not be the joke of the party?

[Aaxeyu]

..so, we can get people using picks, hammers, quarterstaffs, longswords, battleaxes, and not be the joke of the party?

They'll still be a joke. Or do you want every weapon balanced around light hammers?

[HungarianRhapsody]

@everyone saying "dont nerf melees more" and "up the other 20-and-such weapons to khopesh level":

Don't you all think it's easier to bring khopesh down to the other weapon's power level (being a little better than martial, but comparable), and then rise ALL weapon users a step up with something that will help ALL weapons, instead of mutiplying the khopeshes' power even more?

It's the same problem with manyshot. They can't buff ranged because it will just aggravate the power diference between manyshot and no-manyshot. Manyshot is on the way, and need to be reworked before giving any boost to ranged. Khopesh and melees are on the same boat.

It would be easiest to just leave everything exactly the way that it is now. I'd be fine with that. I'd be fine with changing Khopesh to 19-20/x2 with -4 To Hit if you have no proficiency and 19-20/x3 if you do have proficiency. I think that Khopesh, Scimitar, Heavy Pick, Rapier, Kukri and all of the Simple weapons are fine. I think that Light Hammers are an abomination and a sin against God and Nature. I think that Longswords are fine as long as there are enough class/race specific buffs available to make them interesting (just like Greatswords are still better than Falchions in the hands of a WF FvS even if the Greatsword isn't a Sword of Shadow).

When you spend a feat on something, you should get something useful for it. Skill Focus: UMD isn't overpowered. Skill Focus: Swim is underpowered. EWP: Khopesh isn't overpowered, EWP: Bastard Sword (the only EWP aside from Khopesh that anyone should ever consider taking) is underpowered except in *very* specific circumstances.

It would be easier to nerf Khopesh than to boost other weapons, but easier isn't always better. I don't want Khopesh to be the bestest weapon all the time for ever and ever. What I want is the same thing that Aaxeu wants - keep Khopesh the way it is now and give situational boosts to other weapons so that there are valid reasons for using *most* weapons (Light Hammers will always be an abomination).

We had that for Heavy Picks before U9. We have that for Quarterstaffs, Greatswords, Greataxes, Mauls and Falchions today. We have that for Scimitars, Khopeshes, Rapiers, Heavy Picks, Kukri, Longswords, Warhammers and Maces/Morningstars and even rare circumstances that make Bastard Sword use reasonable today. We just need some more situational boosts to specific weapons that make us want to have that kind of variety.

Making one weapon the best all the time isn't the right thing to do. Nerfing Khopesh won't make a greater variety of weapons "optimal", though. Nerfing Khopesh will just make a *different* weapon the best weapon all the time (Scimitar is currently #2 for everyone except Rogues with Rapier at #2 for Rogues). What we need is specific things that each weapon can do to make it interesting in different situations so that Khopesh is great for DPS while other weapons are great for other interesting reasons.

[HungarianRhapsody]

They'll still be a joke. Or do you want every weapon balanced around light hammers?

Light Hammers are an abomination and an offense against God and Nature.

[Ayseifn]

The issue is no one has to give up any of those feats to take khopesh, which invalidates this stance.

And if you want to talk about the imbalance of 3.5e fine, but even if khopesh was 3x crit multiplier in P&P, id still build a charger character that roflpwns it. 3.5e balance issues arent melee related. They are caster related - and yet here we are talking about 3.5 being imbalanced - yet 3.5 has alot of good things that can be used and adapted to this game, like the concept of having a high number of options so that one cookie cutter build doesnt reign supreme.

There are not enough good or bettert feats in this game to justify not taking khopesh. I grin each time I see the "feat starved" argument.

Toughness
TWH
ITWF
GTWF
iCrit slash
Power attack

No one has to give any of these up for khopesh. In fact no optimizer in their right mind builds without these. Even the MOST feat starved builds get 7 feats - non human non fighters. I just listed 6 - Golly Gee, guess what the 7th one is.

If you didnt say khopesh, you are not an optimizer.

Now, there USED TO BE some more useful niche weapons, but not only is Turbine NOT interested in putting more useful melee feats into the game, they even NERFED the ones that had a niche.

Warhammer - there used to be a reason for optimizers to build for warhammers - they were equal DPS to khopesh when mobs were in autocrit and you could get +10 stun on generic loot gen warhammers. This was proxy nerfed.

Heavy pick - in the autocrit days, heavy pick reigned supreme for killing trash as a melee. Now outclasses by khopesh, even on held or stunned mobs.

Its far too easy to have one superior weapon, and be able to balance the melee game against this one weapon, than it is to put more options into the game.

Improved sunder most likely adds more dps than khopesh against raid bosses, and stunning fist(maybe blow too) adds more dps vs trash. Rangers and paladins would be better served with max/quicken IMO but then you're talking about optimizers, and no DPS min/maxer would roll one of those.

[NaturalHazard]

..so, we can get people using picks, hammers, quarterstaffs, longswords, battleaxes, and not be the joke of the party?

I often use longswords no one is laughing when the mobs are being knocked down and paralyzed.

Seen the odd whirling steelstrike build out there.

Hammers seen people using mauls on undead,

Picks havent seen those since autocrit was changed.

And seen some rogue acrobates.

I use different weapons to suit the occasion, unless your a kensai I don't see why you have to be married to one weapon.

I would like to see more options, more different epic, and named versions of other types of weapons beside khopesh, and improvement in racial weapon enhancements maybe a cost reduction? Some changes to prestige to stuff like rogue acrobates to make them more viable and attractive?.More feats to compete with the khopesh? maybe make some of the useless feats actually useful so people planning builds actually have a tough choice, take khopesh or not? instead of just taking multiple toughness feats.

No more nerfs please, better options and alternatives please.

[sephiroth1084]

You said it was a solution. Not only is it "A" Solution, is it the only solution that works across the spectrum of builds, and with you and others continually bringing up how the weapons balance out at higher forts, that is just as bad as saying that is "The" solution.

A =/= The

Maybe I should explain more simply for you. Fortification is a piece of the puzzle, not the puzzle. I don't think we need to see a lot more fortification in the game to balance khopeshes, but we should see more to increase variety and to provide us with more places to use the tools the devs have given us to then reduce fort. The "imbalance" of the khopesh is lessened a bit by fort, but not erased until you have a lot of it.

The issue is no one has to give up any of those feats to take khopesh, which invalidates this stance.

And if you want to talk about the imbalance of 3.5e fine, but even if khopesh was 3x crit multiplier in P&P, id still build a charger character that roflpwns it. 3.5e balance issues arent melee related. They are caster related - and yet here we are talking about 3.5 being imbalanced - yet 3.5 has alot of good things that can be used and adapted to this game, like the concept of having a high number of options so that one cookie cutter build doesnt reign supreme.

Yes, we need more options. I said that, and more than a few times. Honestly, the Pathfinder stuff is all Open Content, and DDO should look at borrowing from that if they can find a way. PF does the feats as options thing much better than 3.5 did, first by giving everyone more feats (every odd level instead of every 3), and then did a lot more with feat chains; made it worthwhile to delve deeper into individual chains, and made several feat chains that sort of exist in parallel to each other--that is, characters could work with any of those parallel chains without being forced into a small group of relevant choices.

DDO has major problems with this, in part due to the lack of options we have, in part due to the limited number of option-slots we have, and in large part due to the focus the game has on DPS (and inflated states) vs. tactics and options. Some of the stuff is interesting, and some of it looks good, but in PnP where spending 1 or 2 feats to be able to cause the Shaken condition on enemies in an area with Intimidate, many characters can hardly justify spending 2 AP on that ability...partly because it requires so much specialization to be useful, and partly because it isn't a DPS boost.

We will spend a feat on Sunder or Stun, because they both improve DPS, but we won't on Trip, because it doesn't. This is partly the DPS topic, and partly an issue of our healing options and power in this game, where avoiding a few swings of an enemy is usually less relevant than simply killing it faster.

There are not enough good or bettert feats in this game to justify not taking khopesh. I grin each time I see the "feat starved" argument.

Toughness
TWH
ITWF
GTWF
iCrit slash
Power attack

If you're a paladin, you may want to fit in Maximize and Quicken (and maybe Empower Healing), somehow, whether by being human or by splashing fighter. That's not optimized for DPS, but it is certainly optimized for other focuses of the game. If you want to be able to tank, you probably want Shield Mastery, and some assortment of Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Fighter Past Life, and Improved Shield Bash.

If you're a rogue, you may want the Rogue Past Life for the to-hit bonus and skill bonus along with a damage bonus. Less damage than using a khopesh...unless you are having trouble hitting.

By the same token, Over-Sized Two-Weapon Fighting is a consideration, since we do have hard to hit enemies in the game, even if people want to pretend we don't. Usually we can simply turn off Power Attack to cover those situations, but that's a choice. Khopesh is a little ahead here, but not unchallengeably so.

Improved Sunder and Stunning Blow are very valuable feats that also can make gameplay more enjoyable for those who prefer to be more active when engaged in combat. These are biggies.