Khopesh fix

[sephiroth1084]

Agreed.

Enhancements, Feats, and Racial Boons, would be the best way to resolve the balance issue at this point. As you pointed out, and I said before, there are too many different kinds of and variants of the weapons to actually look at the weapons and modify them.

Mostly agree, though I still think that bastard swords should go to 18-20/x2, as that would make it worth dual-wielding them. They would have +1 average damage from the khopesh and only be behind by a small margin, while also having the possibility of being given glancing blows.

Dwarven axes need...something. That can probably be covered with racial stuff.

Have it so that Half Orc Two Handed fighting boons worked on Bastard Swords, perhaps also give Half Orcs Bastard Sword as a Martial Feat.

No. Half-orcs are already heavily geared toward two-handed weapons. Giving them free proficiency with a 1-handed weapon doesn't make much sense. Plus, they aren't a very good choice of race for strapping a shield to.

Put in more mobs that are resistant to slashing in general (like skeletons are), and thus requiring puncturing and bludgeons weapons to take them down.

The problem is that unless we have a LOT of these creatures, it won't change wepaon preferences. We'll either swap to an off-spec weapon for those monsters if their DR is super-high, or we'll just punch through it with our primary weapon. Then, the problem with making the DR very high is that archers and monks get screwed, since they can't bypass off-weapon damage type DR.

Also could increase fort of trash mobs in current epics and the new Epic Level Content coming up, to make the "Oh its better vs higher fort mobs" something other then a joke.

Again, not a solution. This hurts melees across the board, and does nothing to impede casters at all. Also, unless you give them a lot of Fort, khopesh is still better, albeit by not as much.

There are many things that could be done at this point to balance the game to make a wider variety of weapons viable.

But they would need to be done in the quest content itself, and on the character sheet, it's really late to go revising the weapons now.

No it isn't. They gave bastard swords and dwarven axes glancing blows a year ago. They can definitely implement other improvements to weapons.

Its always funny when number crunchers who have no real PNP experiance try to defend the most broken weapon in DDO( next to the SoS ofcourse) Spending a feat on exotics was never about having a better weapon in PnP, it was about having a unusual weapon to add flavor to the character. Thats it a favor feat. No one sane took exotic weapons because youd never get an upgrade for it during adventures. Unless in a part of the campaign world where they are not seen as exotic and the locals get use of the weapon feat free.

No. For some groups, in some campaigns, maybe having an exotic weapon means you are SOL when it comes to upgrades. In other games, where the DM isn't a ****, loot just gets swapped from one weapon type to another; that +1 longsword the BBEG was wielding becomes a +1 bastard sword instead. NPCs will happen across an item of the type to sell, or someone will be around willing to enchant yours for you, for a price.

And as far as not being an improvement, I have two words for you: SPIKED CHAIN
For a long time that was the best reason to take EWP, and was a rather huge boost to your character! It gives you reach with a 2d4 damage die, let's your threaten adjacent squares at the same time, which no other reach weapon could do, lets you make trip attacks and gives you a bonus to disarming, and is finessable. ANYONE at all building for attacks of opportunity/reach took that weapon if they had the feat, and most people who were interested in those things made sure they could fit in the feat. That is an exotic weapon worth spending a feat on, and maybe a bit too strong in a PnP environment.

The khopesh adds some more raw damage, but does none of the gamebreaking things the spiked chain was capable of. And in DDO, the game is far more based on mechanics than on flavor, so there isn't room, really, for purely fluff feats. Some people would take them, sure, but that's not what the game is designed to focus on, and shouldn't be.

Its funny how people think scimitar is so much better. Its not capable of anything greater then longsword or battle axe. Why people insist the slightly higher threat range equals such greater dmg is funny as hell. within the first year of 3E WoTC forums lit up over this very debate, and even though situationally that slightly higher threat range might seem end all be all. the fact is the vast majority of creatures are immune to crit in most campaigns. Undead, golems, and illusionary foes are alot more common does to be thrown at mid to high level parties then things with flesh and bones. The guys at WOTC explained that the higher threat range only belonged on weapons with lower base dmg dice.

This is DDO, not PnP, and here we don't have most of our play-time centered on slashing-resistant creatures, and we are capable of adding much more damage to crits than in PnP. In D&D you would be lucky if you could add +25 damage to your 1-handed attacks, and while the scimitar is better than the longsword there, it isn't much better, whereas in DDO it's entirely possible for people to be adding two or even three times that number, at which point the scimitar pulls pretty far ahead of the longsword. That we also can add two or three burst effects as well just further widens that gap.

Yes, DDO is based on, and informed by, D&D 3.5, but don't make the mistake of thinking that they are the same game. They aren't, and the rules of one do not necessarily apply to the rules of the other.

Why is it game breaking? well threads like this popping up in itself are the proof and win the argument. You saying Khopesh is ok, have already lost if you even have to post on the thread in defense. Its literally a no win sitch for khopesh defenders.

Sorry, but saying that simply having an argument about something is proof of the stance is absolute garbage. And "sitch"? Really? I want to take the same tact as yourself and say that anyone using "sitch" in place of "situation" has lost whatever argument they were making right there.

Until the day comes when longsword and battle axe are seen as the main weapons, the game is broken in a way that needs desperate fixxing. Using a exotic should be purely based on personal flavor preferences, anything else is not WAI in the D&D game.

No.

dont you think all these theoretical new feats etc would take ALOT more work for the Devs then just making Khopesh match its PnP stats, which would appease all those who matter, and any who couldnt deal with it can leave and improve the games population.

That's a positively STUPID way to look at the situation.

Understand this, its simple. If your pro khopesh, you only hurt the game. if you love the game, quit using the khopesh and demand it gets put in line with other weapons. While your at it demand the nerfing of the ESoS as well.

The ESoS is a problem because only a small number of people can get their hands on it, and because it is WAY ahead of every other weapon. It has more to-hit than anything else, a higher base damage than anything else (except the EAG), and better crits than anything else with both the best crit range, and a high crit multiplier--it crits as often as the most-criting two-handers, and crits as hard as the hardest-critting two-handers, all in one package. And it can be made to break DR.

Khopeshes are usable by anyone that wants to take the feat, or that can deal with the -4 to-hit penalty, and are only slightly ahead of scimitars and rapiers. A khopesh does not have the best base damage, and has the same (or worse) to-hit as any other weapon, and doesn't crit as often as the other solid 1-handers.

One weapon is exclusive to people who run an epic-level raid and get lucky, while the other is available to everyone. One is a named item that clearly outshines every other possible weapon choice, while the other is simply another weapon you can choose from among many.

20+ years of PnP experience here leads me to believe one thing about pnp. Not everyone plays pnp the same as everyone else. For example, some DMs are fine with a player having a local wizard make an enchanted exotic weapon for them for a price.

It's hardly rocket science to realize that assuming that your specific pnp experience is everyone's is a pretty horrible assumption to make.

Yup. I've got about 10 years, to your 20, but yeah.

[dkyle]

The ridiculous and fallacious argument of "it costs a feat" is totally wasted against the fact that "so does Bastard Sword" and thus, only the most dense or oblivious would try to use that as justification for a superior weapon to exist. IE: If they both cost a feat they should be equally viable weapons. Currently they are not even close.

I 100% agree that they should be equally viable weapons, since they both cost a feat.

But there is no fallacy in "it costs a feat", at least not in the way you're claiming. B-Sword costing a feat and not being worth a feat in no way invalidates the argument that Khopesh costs a feat, and so should be worth a feat. B-Sword should be worth a feat. It's exactly why B-Sword is a bad design, and Khopesh is a good design. If anything, Khopesh is actually weak compared to many other feats, but it's still often worth taking. B-Sword is completely terrible compared to most feats, unless you're S&B-focused, but even then only competitive with Khopesh, at best.

When I say that Khopesh is balanced, considering the feat cost, that is exactly what I mean. The benefit from Khopesh is well in line with what can reasonably be expected from a feat. The feat is balanced with other feats. I'm not claiming that it is well balanced against B-Swords. Unless B-Swords are improved, it shouldn't be. B-Swords aren't even well balanced against Martial weapons.

Making B-Sword a racial weapon is OK, I guess. It certainly does improve it. But it does little to improve the overall variety of builds. I'd rather improve B-Sword, in a not racial-specific way, so that many builds can consider using it.

[krogyy]

Glad you asked.

The ridiculous and fallacious argument of "it costs a feat" is totally wasted against the fact that "so does Bastard Sword" and thus, only the most dense or oblivious would try to use that as justification for a superior weapon to exist. IE: If they both cost a feat they should be equally viable weapons. Currently they are not even close.

By Giving another race (In case, Half-Orc, well. Half-Elf would work too, both would be fine to honest) the Bastard Sword, the fact that Khopesh becomes the only exotic weapon that absolutely requires a feat to use would thus justifying it's elevated place on the DPS pedestal.

Otherwise, it should be fitted in to balance against Bastard Swords, because there is no justification for it being as good as it is.

Giving the other weapon out as a martial to a race, would, in my mind, be enough to balance the whole mess out.

But that is just me.

there exit tons of useless feats in DDO. the fact that BS: prof may be one of those (and it isn't, imho) does not suggest in any way that it should be handed for free to one of the two top melee races.

also, DAs have an equivalent crit profile to BSs and can be used for "free" so giving out BS prof to anybody would just undermine one of the few good points of dwarves.

besides, all this discussion is moot. khopeshes are marginally the best weapon for TWF, BS and DA are the best weapons by far for S&B or S&RA. every exotic has its place and use.

[Aesop]

Set the Glancing Blows from BS and DWA to a moderate level that may or may not match up to Two Handed Weapons in general, let Kensai Enhancements function on them like THW and completely drop the idea of the THF Feats affecting those two (why should four feat be necessary). Also change the mechanic from functioning only when not dual wielding to only functioning for the main hand.

Suddenly DWA and BS won't be very far behind at all.


Oh the reason for the Kensai change... Kensai functions for specific weapon types seems to me that that would affect the actual function of the weapon more so than other THF specific feats and enhancements.

Aesop

[HungarianRhapsody]

Set the Glancing Blows from BS and DWA to a moderate level that may or may not match up to Two Handed Weapons in general, let Kensai Enhancements function on them like THW and completely drop the idea of the THF Feats affecting those two (why should four feat be necessary). Also change the mechanic from functioning only when not dual wielding to only functioning for the main hand.

Suddenly DWA and BS won't be very far behind at all.


Oh the reason for the Kensai change... Kensai functions for specific weapon types seems to me that that would affect the actual function of the weapon more so than other THF specific feats and enhancements.

Aesop

Those changes would actually put the Bastard Sword and DAxe far, far ahead of the Khopesh.

Bastard Sword is already far ahead of Khopesh if you're running Sword and Board.

[Aesop]

Those changes would actually put the Bastard Sword and DAxe far, far ahead of the Khopesh.

Bastard Sword is already far ahead of Khopesh if you're running Sword and Board.

I believe people have already done the math on this and shown this to not be true.

I don't know where the quote is now but I believe that unless you are fighting three or four mobs at the same time and getting full glancing blows Khopesh still wins out in straight DPS until you get over the 50% Fort mark. Then you can start losing the extra targets.

The problem there is that most of the DPS situations that actually matter involve a single target.

Aesop

[HungarianRhapsody]

I believe people have already done the math on this and shown this to not be true.

I don't know where the quote is now but I believe that unless you are fighting three or four mobs at the same time and getting full glancing blows Khopesh still wins out in straight DPS until you get over the 50% Fort mark. Then you can start losing the extra targets.

The problem there is that most of the DPS situations that actually matter involve a single target.

Aesop

I'm going to be keeping my daughter home from school tomorrow, so I'll have plenty of time to work out the numbers. I'm pretty sure that Bastard Sword will be significantly ahead of Khopesh with the changes that you suggested.

It will be interesting to see how it works out, though.

[Aesop]

I'm going to be keeping my daughter home from school tomorrow, so I'll have plenty of time to work out the numbers. I'm pretty sure that Bastard Sword will be significantly ahead of Khopesh with the changes that you suggested.

It will be interesting to see how it works out, though.

Sounds good. Please note I did not define what "moderate' glancing blows equated to. However, I figure somewhere between what the THF Feat and the ITHF Feat grant

Numbers can be munched to make things work better. if one aspect makes it too much trimming it back will work.

Aesop

[Ungood]

Also could increase fort of trash mobs in current epics and the new Epic Level Content coming up, to make the "Oh its better vs higher fort mobs" something other then a joke.

Again, not a solution. This hurts melees across the board, and does nothing to impede casters at all. Also, unless you give them a lot of Fort, khopesh is still better, albeit by not as much.

I agree, but that is precisely what you are suggesting as solution to game balance when you say things like this:

The khopesh is the best 1-handed weapon ... IF you aren't fighting something with 100% fortification.

Think about that long and hard, you just said that that the way to balance the Khopesh to other weapons is to give all mobs 100% fort.

And yet you realize how horrible that would be for the game as a whole.

That should be a massive sign that something is wrong with this weapon, and thinking otherwise is a fallacy.

[Talias006]

i keep reading about giving half-orcs bastard swords proficiency for free.

where did this idea come from? and how should it help in any way the balance of the game?

Well... there is the unspoken sentiment about Half-Orcs.
Being half-breeds, giving them EWP: Bastard Sword thematically fits to their racial upbringing, if not in a kind way.

[sephiroth1084]

Think about that long and hard, you just said that that the way to balance the Khopesh to other weapons is to give all mobs 100% fort.

And yet you realize how horrible that would be for the game as a whole.

That should be a massive sign that something is wrong with this weapon, and thinking otherwise is a fallacy.

No, that isn't what I said. You should work on your reading comprehension a bit.

What I did was provide a short list of things/situations where the khopesh was not the best 1-handed weapon. The fact that we have important bosses with 80% Fort definitely cuts down on its strength significantly. There are so many other things to consider, though.

There's nothing wrong with the khopesh. There is something wrong with the bastard sword, and and the dwarven axe, though the DA is in better stead than the BS. They need improving, even after the glancing blows stuff.

Are you claiming that Power Attack is too powerful, because EVERYONE that swings a weapon as a primary task picks it up? Improved Critical? Toughness?

I was planning a new character for a Pathfinder game recently and realized that, despite playing a fighter with TONS of feats, I wasn't going to pick up Improved Critical or any of the Critical Focus enhancements at all, because he's an archer, the feat doesn't do all that much for him, and there are much better options out there. We don't have that depth in DDO, but we should.

[Ungood]

No, that isn't what I said. You should work on your reading comprehension a bit.

I saw what you said perfectly, and pointed it out to you.

Oh, you are correct however, a Mistake was made, that much is true, it was just not on my end.

What I did was provide a short list of things/situations where the khopesh was not the best 1-handed weapon. The fact that we have important bosses with 80% Fort definitely cuts down on its strength significantly. There are so many other things to consider, though.

See, You just said it again. the balance point is at 80 - 100% fort.

So the problem as well as the solution as you present it, is that there are not enough mobs with 80 - 100% and if there were more mobs with higher fort, that would fix the whole balance issue.

Wow, and that is WAI to you?

There's nothing wrong with the khopesh

It's akin watching a child cling to their favorite little toy like a security blanket screaming that there is nothing wrong with it, in the face of the obvious, when someone tries to take it away.

Now, not to be rude, but if I had to choose between giving all the mobs in the game 80 - 100% fort or taking the Khopesh out back and beating it with a nerf bat till it was worthless, I'll give you a guess which I would support.

Are you claiming that Power Attack is too powerful, because EVERYONE that swings a weapon as a primary task picks it up? Improved Critical? Toughness?

Now, while I am not going to say something as rude as you said to me about reading comprehension, and all that, but, you should not attempt to pick on people for something you lack.

I said no such thing.

[Dandonk]

I think Ungood and I are reading different posts.

For the topic of this thread: Khopesh is fine as it is - the problem is that other exotic weapons do not bring as much of an advantage as khopesh does.

Melee is already struggling versus arcane DPS. It would be silly to lower melee DPS further. Strengthening other exotic weapons would level the playing field without resorting to nerfs.

[Ungood]

For the topic of this thread: Khopesh is fine as it is

If Khopesh was fine, this topic would not exist.

[HungarianRhapsody]

If everyone understood why Khopesh was fine, this topic would not exist.

Fixed.

This topic doesn't exist because Khopesh is broken. This topic exists because some people think that Khopesh is broken. The existance of a forum thread suggesting a fix for the problem of people falling off the edge of the Earth is not proof that the Earth is flat.

[Ungood]

This topic exists because Khopesh is broken.

ftfy

PS. No one likes that game.

[HungarianRhapsody]

ftfy

PS. No one likes that game.

If your original statement were accurate, then no one would have posted a "fixed" comment that corrected your error.

[Ungood]

If your original statement were accurate, then no one would have posted a "fixed" comment that corrected your error.

Oh that explains why I needed to fix your post.

Added: Can we move past the childish antics now?

[WruntJunior]

This thread absolutely blows my mind. Why on earth do people want to nerf melees? Raise the other exotic weapons to similar levels to Khopesh - the feats should be worth taking.

For the record, you know what adds much more damage as a feat than khopesh ever will (and don't pretend people hit fine without the khopesh feat....maybe the people with 3 fighter past lives as a pure str-based eSoS-wielding kensai never miss when buffed, but the game DEFINITELY should not be balanced around them)...maximize. I never see a call for that feat being nerfed. There's a reason khopesh is the first feat to go on builds without enough feats - it may be a staple simply because it's the current "king" weapon (which will always happen, as long as all weapons are not exactly identical), but it doesn't give as much dps as any other melee feat for 99.95% of all players (this may be untrue at nearly-unreachable extremes of dps, but since that high of dps lasts for a very short amount of time...)

In all honesty, the weapons in this game are fairly well balanced - even a longsword build contributes decent dps, though 19-20/x2 is one of the worst possible crit-ranges. After all, if other weapons were that bad in comparison, monks would be nowhere near considered dps...rather than the near-gods they currently are.

[Ungood]

I suppose at some point, One needs to reassess what is the motive behind posting and what they are trying to accomplish as sometimes it is too easy to get wrapped up in the "discussion" and loosing sight of the goal, especially when people come in and toss out their little worthless jabs which in all earnest do nothing to contribute to the discussion at all in any way, and just lead to sidetracking and disputes.

My Single Point was that: Khopesh is not WAI.

Given the extremes that people have put for that would take to balance it,

• Increasing Mob fort to 80-100%,
• Making all other weapons deviate from the Core Rules.
• Heavy Nerfs to the Khopesh itself

I would say it's palpable that something is not right. Especially when you consider that:

• Bastard Sword and Dwarf Axe scale well to each other
• Bastard Sword and Dwarf Axe scale equally well to other Martial Weapons.

It would seem straightforward and transparent that the problem is squarely with the Khopesh.

To me, that is the very epitome of what Not WAI is.

But, I am open to accept that I do not know the motive behind the developers, so making an unbalanced weapon that does not fit into the synergy of the game very well may have been their intent.

• If it was their goal to have an unbalanced weapon in the game, then yes, it is WAI.
• If their goal was to make a balanced game then the Khopesh is not Wai.

What I find laughable is that people would entertain that this weapon is balanced, when anyone with half a sense or clue of any means to optimized their DPS for cost would take this weapon because it is worth any feats you would expend to get it, which also explains why people are so adamant to defend it at it's current power level.

Why to express otherwise is either trying to be deceptive or ignorant.