Khopesh fix

[nibel]

First, I know I may get a ton of negative reputation. But I need to give this suggestion anyway.

Second, a bit of background: With the exception of two weapons (Shuriken and Khopesh), every single exotic weapon need proficiency to get something cool done. B-swords and D-axes give glancing blows if single-wielding or using a shield. Repeating Light/heavy crossbow send 3-shot volleys. Great crossbow have the knockback on a natural 20.

Khopesh on PnP is a longsword with exceptional vertigo+2. This is too weak to waste a feat on this game. I'm not advocating for the khopesh to become what the B-sword was some years ago. But I think the khopesh can fit the DPS role as the same time it gets back into the power range of the other weapons.

The first thing that need to be done: We need to give khopesh something that can only be used if the character have the feat. So, without any feats, KHopesh is basically a longsword. No change. 1d8, 19-20/x2. No exceptional vertigo, no x3 multiplier, no nothing. This should solve the problem of people using non-proficient khopeshes because it's too good to the point that the -4 to-hit isn't a big deal.

If you get the proficiency feat, khopesh get the Bow of Sinew's Elasticity enchantment. So, on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (the weapon normal crit range), the crit multiplier get up to x3. So, while you do not possess Improved Critical, the new khopesh works exactly like it is now.

But why elasticity? Because even if you get Improved Critical, only 19-20 get the x3 multiplier. 17-18 get the base x2, which brings the weapon more on line with the B-sword and D-axe. It gets a crit power simmilar to scimitars, but with a higher base damage (and with the epic weapon damage change Eladrin advertised, would be even better later with 2d8 greenteels), it is more DPS than a scimitar. And still the best one-hander for TWF.

That would leave shuriken as the only exotic weapon that have nothing special on the feat. Maybe they can add shuriken expertise as an effect of the proficiency feat...

[HatsuharuZ]

As someone who is tired of seeing every s&b/twf melee and his mother running around with a khopesh, I approve of this.

Edit: In retrospect, that was a little too glib. I feel that khopeshes are simply too good, and that the benefits of the weapon cause players to overlook all the other weapons that they might have cause to use up a feat for. This game is built on the innumerable choices that players are given in order to build the kind of toon that suits them. Why, in such a game, should one weapon weapon type reign supreme?

[Jaid314]

That would leave shuriken as the only exotic weapon that have nothing special on the feat. Maybe they can add shuriken expertise as an effect of the proficiency feat...

if they used PnP rules where you can flurry with shurikens (equivalent to TWF but with shurikens, equivalent to ITWF at level 11 for monks) i'm sure they would experience at least a little bit more popularity.

as it stands, they appear to be attempting to somewhat emulate that by allowing you to throw more shurikens than you could throw of any other weapon, provided you make the investment to be able to do so.

it might also help if they were to actually introduce some more useful shurikens. if there was, say, an epic shuriken with a 19-20/x2 base crit rate and an actual decent damage die, and, say, +9 like the noxious fang... i bet a lot more people would be interested in that shuriken. if the shuriken also had some interesting effects on it, even better.

[wax_on_wax_off]

/signed

[licho]

WoW you nailed this.
Good that smbd is able to spot some weapon inbalance, and yout proposal is very fair and mathematically elegant.

Im also tired of seeing khopesh everywhere and has the feeling, that not going not khopesh im gimping my toon for no reason.

[Bacab]

I agree with everything here...except one thing.

Melees in general do not need to be nerfed.

[Aaxeyu]

/Not signed.
Scimitar/rapier and khopesh are well balanced. If you nerf khopesh it would rarely be worth the feat cost.
Bringing khopesh closer to the B-sword and D-axe is a mistake. They should be buffed to match khopeshes.


B-sword and D-axe also need to lose the glancing blows, that mechanic hurts diversity.

[sephiroth1084]

How do the crit numbers actually compare between 15-20/x2 and 17-18/x2, 19-20/x3?

If they are close to identical, you just made the khopesh completely worthless, since it really isn't worth spending a feat to move from scimitars to khopeshes.

[sephiroth1084]

/
B-sword and D-axe also need to lose the glancing blows, that mechanic hurts diversity.

How so?

[Aaxeyu]

How so?

It reduces the weapon choices for those who can take advantage of it.
Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

[sephiroth1084]

It reduces the weapon choices for those who can take advantage of it.
Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

Eh.

If you can't afford the THF feats, khopesh and scimitar are generally better.
If you want to swap between TWF and S&B khopesh and scimitar are generally better.

You have options. The biggest problem I see is that other 1-handed weapons are just so far behind the big 5 (khopesh, scimitar, rapier, bastard sword, dwarven axe) that they aren't ever worth using, but we have abilities in the game that want you to use things like longswords, and we have a bunch of named and epic 1-handers outside the big 5 that are unattractive just for that reason.

[MrAakmr]

How do the crit numbers actually compare between 15-20/x2 and 17-18/x2, 19-20/x3?

If they are close to identical, you just made the khopesh completely worthless, since it really isn't worth spending a feat to move from scimitars to khopeshes.

They are the same
27 'hits' for the current Kopesh (1 miss, 15 normal, 4 crits at x3)
25 for the new one (1 miss, 15 normal, 2 crits at x2, 2 at x3)
25 for the scimitar (1 miss, 13 normal, 6 crits at x2)
Assuming improved critical of course. But why would you even consider taking kopesh if you didn't already have imp crit?

So yeah, not a fan of that part of this suggestion. I do like the idea of tying the feat into the better multiplier though. Not sure if thats particularly worth spending time on though.

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks.

And no, I don't think it's worth screwing with the thing in order to tie the multiplier to having the feat. How many people are using khopeshes without proficiency? Not very many people in the game that can ignore to-hit penalties entirely.

[Aaxeyu]

Eh.

If you can't afford the THF feats, khopesh and scimitar are generally better.
If you want to swap between TWF and S&B khopesh and scimitar are generally better.

You have options. The biggest problem I see is that other 1-handed weapons are just so far behind the big 5 (khopesh, scimitar, rapier, bastard sword, dwarven axe) that they aren't ever worth using, but we have abilities in the game that want you to use things like longswords, and we have a bunch of named and epic 1-handers outside the big 5 that are unattractive just for that reason.

I would rather have it like:
If you can't afford the THF feats, all are about equal (exotics being better).
If you want to swap between TWF and S&B all are about equal (exotics being better).

That way there will be far more diversity between characters with similar builds, so that not all with build X use khopeshes, and all with build Y uses B-swords.

[Mad_ScientistsNH]

I understand where you're coming from with this, but I think you're moving in the wrong direction. Melees need a tiny bit of help, and the real trick may be finding ways to make other weapons more attractive so the Khopesh has some more viable competition beyond just price concerned players such as myself.

[licho]

Thanks.

And no, I don't think it's worth screwing with the thing in order to tie the multiplier to having the feat. How many people are using khopeshes without proficiency? Not very many people in the game that can ignore to-hit penalties entirely.

The right questions are:
How many characters using 2WF is using Khopesh?
How many not using, are doing it from reason others than lack of knowledge or flavor?
Assuming you are not totally gimped warrior how much on avarage the khopesh feat you net?

Once you discover the number from 3rd what you can say about Weapon Specializacion?

[Seventh]

I don't really understand these "nerf khopesh" threads. Folks seem to be under the impression that if khopesh DPS was brought down, people would suddenly start using all of those non-khopesh weapons that no one uses right now, that we'd see a wide variety of weapons being used by players. That simply isn't true. Folks gravitate to the khopesh right now because it's the best available option. It's not forced on them. That means that if you implement a khopesh nerf, one of two things will happen:

1) The nerf doesn't reduce the bump to DPS khopeshes provide enough to matter, and everyone continues using khopeshes. Nothing changes.

2) The nerf makes the khopesh feat no longer worthwhile, by either making the increase to DPS so small you're better off taking a different DPS-increasing feat or making it not increase DPS at all, and everyone stops using khopeshes altogether. Everyone will instead use the next best weapons on the DPS tier list- rapiers and scimitars. No one other than flavor builds will use anything else, because they'll be the best available DPS option. Instead of being gimp for not using khopeshes, you'll being gimp for not using rapiers/scimitars. I think this is what people don't really get. Folks seem to think there's only two different groups of weapons when it comes to DPS- "khopeshes" and "everything else" when in reality khopeshes just make up one of about five or six distinct DPS tiers of weapons. Nerf one, and everyone moves on to the next highest tier. So this nerf wouldn't accomplish anything, other than causing a lot of folks to angrily re-grind a bunch of weapons and applying a hilarious nerf to melee DPS. Ha ha.

[Talias006]

B-sword and D-axe also need to lose the glancing blows, that mechanic hurts diversity.

I agree with not changing Khopesh, but this doesn't sit well with me.

Under the current rules, I enjoy having my glancing blows from my D-axe on my S&B Paladin.
And the same with B-swords on my Artificer.

Glancing blows have actually made those two types more feasible for melee users.
Why would you take it away?

[Aaxeyu]

i agree with not changing khopesh, but this doesn't sit well with me.

Under the current rules, i enjoy having my glancing blows from my d-axe on my s&b paladin.
And the same with b-swords on my artificer.

Glancing blows have actually made those two types more feasible for melee users.
Why would you take it away?

.

it reduces the weapon choices for those who can take advantage of it.
Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

i would rather have it like:
If you can't afford the thf feats, all are about equal (exotics being better).
If you want to swap between twf and s&b all are about equal (exotics being better).

That way there will be far more diversity between characters with similar builds, so that not all with build x use khopeshes, and all with build y uses b-swords.

.

[azrael4h]

I don't really understand these "nerf khopesh" threads. Folks seem to be under the impression that if khopesh DPS was brought down, people would suddenly start using all of those non-khopesh weapons that no one uses right now, that we'd see a wide variety of weapons being used by players. That simply isn't true. Folks gravitate to the khopesh right now because it's the best available option. It's not forced on them. That means that if you implement a khopesh nerf, one of two things will happen:

1) The nerf doesn't reduce the bump to DPS khopeshes provide enough to matter, and everyone continues using khopeshes. Nothing changes.

2) The nerf makes the khopesh feat no longer worthwhile, by either making the increase to DPS so small you're better off taking a different DPS-increasing feat or making it not increase DPS at all, and everyone stops using khopeshes altogether. Everyone will instead use the next best weapons on the DPS tier list- rapiers and scimitars. No one other than flavor builds will use anything else, because they'll be the best available DPS option. Instead of being gimp for not using khopeshes, you'll being gimp for not using rapiers/scimitars. I think this is what people don't really get. Folks seem to think there's only two different groups of weapons when it comes to DPS- "khopeshes" and "everything else" when in reality khopeshes just make up one of about five or six distinct DPS tiers of weapons. Nerf one, and everyone moves on to the next highest tier. So this nerf wouldn't accomplish anything, other than causing a lot of folks to angrily re-grind a bunch of weapons and applying a hilarious nerf to melee DPS. Ha ha.

Hit the nail on the head. Nerfing is the absolute worst way to bring balance into the game. It's Bad Game Design 101. Looking at weak options and see where and why they are weak, and figuring out ways to make them equally attractive to the strong ones is Good Game Design 101. It's harder, but leads to a quality game. Nerfing leads to things like WoW, which has lost how many players in the last few months? Wasn't it bleeding players in 6 digit numbers?

Feats are a limited resource in character creation. Yes they can be changed, but so can skills and stats, if you want to front the cost to do so. Therefore, each feat needs to be able to justify it's being taken in one of 7-8 slots on all but 4 classes.

Rather than being over-powered, Khopesh is the only exotic weapon that is actually worth the cost of the feat expenditure. If it's worth taking, it must be over-powered! If it's worth using, it must be over-powered! No, it's it's worth taking, then it's designed right. Feats should be attractive enough to make a player say "Do I want this, or do I want this? Both are good, which one do I take?" Is Power Attack over-powered? It's almost universally taken by melees. Toughness is also very over-powered, since it's a must-have feat for everybody except Barbarians, much more than Khopesh is viewed as must have for melees.

The correct, intelligent game design answer would be to make the other exotic weapons more attractive, and more worth the feat cost. Glancing Blows while in S&B mode do not do this. Therefore the other exotics need to be made more attractive still. Exotics should be better than martial weapons, which should be better than simple weapons, barring named items.