Khopesh fix

[nibel]

First, I know I may get a ton of negative reputation. But I need to give this suggestion anyway.

Second, a bit of background: With the exception of two weapons (Shuriken and Khopesh), every single exotic weapon need proficiency to get something cool done. B-swords and D-axes give glancing blows if single-wielding or using a shield. Repeating Light/heavy crossbow send 3-shot volleys. Great crossbow have the knockback on a natural 20.

Khopesh on PnP is a longsword with exceptional vertigo+2. This is too weak to waste a feat on this game. I'm not advocating for the khopesh to become what the B-sword was some years ago. But I think the khopesh can fit the DPS role as the same time it gets back into the power range of the other weapons.

The first thing that need to be done: We need to give khopesh something that can only be used if the character have the feat. So, without any feats, KHopesh is basically a longsword. No change. 1d8, 19-20/x2. No exceptional vertigo, no x3 multiplier, no nothing. This should solve the problem of people using non-proficient khopeshes because it's too good to the point that the -4 to-hit isn't a big deal.

If you get the proficiency feat, khopesh get the Bow of Sinew's Elasticity enchantment. So, on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (the weapon normal crit range), the crit multiplier get up to x3. So, while you do not possess Improved Critical, the new khopesh works exactly like it is now.

But why elasticity? Because even if you get Improved Critical, only 19-20 get the x3 multiplier. 17-18 get the base x2, which brings the weapon more on line with the B-sword and D-axe. It gets a crit power simmilar to scimitars, but with a higher base damage (and with the epic weapon damage change Eladrin advertised, would be even better later with 2d8 greenteels), it is more DPS than a scimitar. And still the best one-hander for TWF.

That would leave shuriken as the only exotic weapon that have nothing special on the feat. Maybe they can add shuriken expertise as an effect of the proficiency feat...

[HatsuharuZ]

As someone who is tired of seeing every s&b/twf melee and his mother running around with a khopesh, I approve of this.

Edit: In retrospect, that was a little too glib. I feel that khopeshes are simply too good, and that the benefits of the weapon cause players to overlook all the other weapons that they might have cause to use up a feat for. This game is built on the innumerable choices that players are given in order to build the kind of toon that suits them. Why, in such a game, should one weapon weapon type reign supreme?

[Jaid314]

That would leave shuriken as the only exotic weapon that have nothing special on the feat. Maybe they can add shuriken expertise as an effect of the proficiency feat...

if they used PnP rules where you can flurry with shurikens (equivalent to TWF but with shurikens, equivalent to ITWF at level 11 for monks) i'm sure they would experience at least a little bit more popularity.

as it stands, they appear to be attempting to somewhat emulate that by allowing you to throw more shurikens than you could throw of any other weapon, provided you make the investment to be able to do so.

it might also help if they were to actually introduce some more useful shurikens. if there was, say, an epic shuriken with a 19-20/x2 base crit rate and an actual decent damage die, and, say, +9 like the noxious fang... i bet a lot more people would be interested in that shuriken. if the shuriken also had some interesting effects on it, even better.

[wax_on_wax_off]

/signed

[licho]

WoW you nailed this.
Good that smbd is able to spot some weapon inbalance, and yout proposal is very fair and mathematically elegant.

Im also tired of seeing khopesh everywhere and has the feeling, that not going not khopesh im gimping my toon for no reason.

[Bacab]

I agree with everything here...except one thing.

Melees in general do not need to be nerfed.

[waterboytkd]

I'm not averse to changing Khopesh in some way to "bring it more in line with other weapons". But, I think that this must be observed:

Melees in general do not need to be nerfed.

That said, bringing 'pesh DPS more in line can't strictly be a nerf. There needs to be some other changes to make the item's functionality high, if not better than what it currently is. Also, Bswords and Daxes could use a functionality boost beyond what they currently have.

When you look at Daxes and Bswords, they follow a weapon progression:

Swords: short 1d6 19-20/x2, long 1d8 19-20/x2, bsword 1d10 19-20/x2
Axes: hand 1d6 x3, battle 1d8 x3, daxe 1d10 x3

'Pesh could fit in the other blade line, the exotic (from a western european perspective) curved one:

kukri 1d4 18-20/x2, scimitar 1d6 18-20/x2, khopesh 1d8 18-20/x2

But this isn't enough. In fact, this would strictly be a nerf. So here's something else that must be done:

Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, and Khopeshes could all gain a new weapon property: Superior Melee Weapon (yeah, I know this doesn't at all fit the real world history of the 'pesh, but then, the 'peshes we have in this game aren't much like their real world counterparts).

Superior Melee Weapon: If you do not have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for this weapon, you do not suffer the -4 penalty to attack rolls. If you do have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for this weapon, when you wield this weapon in one hand, and no other weapon in your offhand (either empty or shield), this weapon deals glancing blows as a two-handed weapon. Also, if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for this weapon, when you use a Tactical feat with this weapon (Stunning Blow, Imp/Trip, Imp/Sunder), you gain a +4 Weapon Bonus to the DC.
Note: This would replace the current rules for Bswords and Daxes in regards to glancing blows.

EDIT: So, didn't realize this at first, but the above basically gives ALL classes basic Khopesh, Daxe, and Sword proficiency, even rogues, monks, or wizards. So what could be done instead is this: 3 new feats would come into being, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh, MWP: Daxe, and MWP: Bswords. These would only alleviate the -4 non-proficient penalty to attack rolls, but would not grant the glancing blows or DC bonuses. Any class that grants all Martial Weapon Proficiencies, like Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, or Barbarian, would grant these. Exotic Weapon Proficiency would still be needed to unlock the glancing blows and DC bonuses, and of course, it would alleviate the -4 penalty to attack rolls if a character did not have the corresponding Martial Proficiency.

So this does two things: first, if you were uninterested in glancing blows or tactics, you could still use Bswords, Daxes, and 'Peshes without having to spend a feat on the weapon. That means those pure dps toons who never tank and never use tactics wouldn't have to worry that the feat they spend on 'Peshes is a waste: they could simply trade it out for something else, and still uses 'Peshes without penalty. Second, it makes the feat spent on Proficiency for these weapons still worthwhile: if you're a tank, you like getting the glancing blows (probably); if you're a tactics melee, you like the +4 to DCs.

Maybe it's not enough, but this would bring 'Pesh dps in line with other weapons, while not screwing over 'Pesh pure-dps builds (it actually frees up a feat for them without forcing them to re-do their weapons), gives a boost to tactics-based melees, gives another weapon option for tanks, and still doesn't obviate scimitars any more than they are (would be mostly an elf weapon, as now) or longswords (mostly fvs or monk splash weapon). The draw to use Daxes is still there: dwarf (they get Prof for free, making Dwarves one of the best tactics melee races, and they get racial enhancements to boost damage). The minuscule draw to use Bswords is still there: eFang (there's really no other reason to go this weapon--maybe humans could get an enhancement line for Longsword and Bastard sword attack and damage?). And 'Peshes would still be the highest dps one-handed weapon in the game, so the draw there is obvious.

[Aaxeyu]

/Not signed.
Scimitar/rapier and khopesh are well balanced. If you nerf khopesh it would rarely be worth the feat cost.
Bringing khopesh closer to the B-sword and D-axe is a mistake. They should be buffed to match khopeshes.


B-sword and D-axe also need to lose the glancing blows, that mechanic hurts diversity.

[sephiroth1084]

/
B-sword and D-axe also need to lose the glancing blows, that mechanic hurts diversity.

How so?

[Aaxeyu]

How so?

It reduces the weapon choices for those who can take advantage of it.
Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

[sephiroth1084]

It reduces the weapon choices for those who can take advantage of it.
Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

Eh.

If you can't afford the THF feats, khopesh and scimitar are generally better.
If you want to swap between TWF and S&B khopesh and scimitar are generally better.

You have options. The biggest problem I see is that other 1-handed weapons are just so far behind the big 5 (khopesh, scimitar, rapier, bastard sword, dwarven axe) that they aren't ever worth using, but we have abilities in the game that want you to use things like longswords, and we have a bunch of named and epic 1-handers outside the big 5 that are unattractive just for that reason.

[Aaxeyu]

Eh.

If you can't afford the THF feats, khopesh and scimitar are generally better.
If you want to swap between TWF and S&B khopesh and scimitar are generally better.

You have options. The biggest problem I see is that other 1-handed weapons are just so far behind the big 5 (khopesh, scimitar, rapier, bastard sword, dwarven axe) that they aren't ever worth using, but we have abilities in the game that want you to use things like longswords, and we have a bunch of named and epic 1-handers outside the big 5 that are unattractive just for that reason.

I would rather have it like:
If you can't afford the THF feats, all are about equal (exotics being better).
If you want to swap between TWF and S&B all are about equal (exotics being better).

That way there will be far more diversity between characters with similar builds, so that not all with build X use khopeshes, and all with build Y uses B-swords.

[nibel]

How do the crit numbers actually compare between 15-20/x2 and 17-18/x2, 19-20/x3?

If they are close to identical, you just made the khopesh completely worthless, since it really isn't worth spending a feat to move from scimitars to khopeshes.

It's worth if people only want max dps. It's the only change I could think of to sustain the khopesh as a DPS weapon without it being a no-brainer to any melee like it is today.

I agree that weapon users (melee AND ranged) need a buff to close the gap to casters today. But every melee buff will be highly amplified with some over the edge weapons. eSoS is one of them, but it is only one rare weapon. Khopeshes is another, and this one is a full weapon type that should be fixed as a whole. Epic khopeshes, like Chaosblade, could be as über as eSoS as they want (and epic D-axes, longswords, rapiers, scimitars, and such).

It's the same thing with manyshot. Manyshot is the best 20-seconds DPS in the entire game, hands down. So, everything they may do to fix the average ranged DPS, will be amplified on those 20-seconds of manyshot. Except if they "fix" manyshot to bearable levels.

Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

Agree. Some one-handed martial weapons can use glancing blows too, like warhammers, battleaxes and longswords. That alone would open a can of new builds around, and raise versatility between the defenders of today (my SD dwarf cries every time he need to switch to a skelly beater).

[HungarianRhapsody]

It's worth if people only want max dps. It's the only change I could think of to sustain the khopesh as a DPS weapon without it being a no-brainer to any melee like it is today.

Why is it worthwhile if people want max DPS? The Khopesh change listed in the OP gives the Khopesh the exact same DPS as a Scimitar while still offering less value for on-crit effects like Radiance. Why would anyone want to pay a feat to end up with the same DPS as a Scimitar and less utility?

[Talias006]

.



.

If you raise the bar for other non Exotic weapons to give glancing blows, how would you then give the extra oomph that b-swords and d-axes deserve because they are exotic?

And thank you for pointing to your previous posts which don't help me at all since I had already seen them.
Much appreciated.

[licho]

So how much shoudl the dps feat be worth?

Weapon Specializacion brings +2 dmg.
Also people fit the whole weapon sets just for this extra 2dmg so its good mark whats is worth the effor.

The 2WF/2HF lines, and PA, and Crit itself brings more than 2dmg, but... this lines do not narrow the weapon selection. (you may use greatclub or Greataxe and this PA will be worth more or less the same) Also from PA, or 2hf can benefit mostly any race/class combo.

How much gives khopesh? Lets assume we r somehow middle warrior and our base to crit (with seeker) is just a 60.
The Current Khopesh have better profile over scimitars of 0,1 per dmg/hit. So on this ovarage blow we get extra 7dmg (1 from better dice). If you builded up and have better base the profit rises.

Do you understand now what no brainer means?

But who cares, more power to melee, why you nerf melees again?
Suprisngly not every melee benefit from the khopesh in the same way.
For example Horc benefit in much degree, since the extra PA and Str boost the crit profile.
Human, or HE also benefit from Khopeshy (dmg boost) or it dosnt matter (dilletante SA).
On the other side elves and dvarves do not benefit from khopesh supremacy at all.

So as long as we care about balance the khopesh should be roduced to something more like weapon specializacion. (+2dmg)
And the nibil's idea is very good base.
Maybe it should be more like Elasticity +1d6 on crits. So the avarage will be more like 2, but it will be finitive (current is potencially infinitive).

The other solution is introduce a new feat:

Khopeshize:
Req: BAB +1, any single handed martial, or simple weapon. Cant be khopesh.
Effect: This feat increase dmg dealed by your weapon of choice by 5% since why not. It cost a feat and it should pay off.
Additional notes: Fighters, Monks, and Rogues can pick it as class feat. Can be taken multiply times (each times for different weapon). Cant be taken for Khopesh.

Of course there will be improved khopeshize, and greater khopeshize up to 15% dmg increase, for 3 feats. As we know feats are very valuable for everyone so its of course fair.

Problem solved, everybody happy.

[sephiroth1084]

Except that if you had a choice between a longsword and a bastard sword, almost everyone would choose the longsword, because spending a feat for +1 average damage isn't all that impressive. It ends up being a bit more once you figure in bigger damage dice from greensteel, epics and alchemicals, but still ends up being pretty mediocre.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Beefing up fortification of mobs across the board would equalize alot of weaponry automatically, khopeshes included.

Then again, this would only favor casters even more, so to avoid that, all mobs should also receive increased elemental resistances across the board.

[justagame]

Khopesh is the only exotic weapon proficiency that's actually worth spending a feat, IMO. You don't need it for dwarven axe, b. sword isn't worth it, (add to that the fact that the best b. sword in the game doesn't even need the feat!)

If it was ACTUALLY overpowered, then sure, one could argue for a nerf. But the fact that so many use them is not by itself evidence of OP-ness. The nerf described means the feat would no longer be worth taking, as it would no longer be better than other one-handed weapons that do NOT require feats.

If you want to ask why so many people use khopeshes, ask why the other exotic weapons are so poor in incremental value.

[sephiroth1084]

Beefing up fortification of mobs across the board would equalize alot of weaponry automatically, khopeshes included.

Then again, this would only favor casters even more, so to avoid that, all mobs should also receive increased elemental resistances across the board.

That would be awful! And honestly, if you can't recognize why, you probably shouldn't be making comments in discussions seeking to improve or balance the game at all.