Khopesh fix

[Ungood]

This again?

I know right!

You would almost be led to think there might be something up with this weapon, especially with how much it deviates from it's pnp statics.

[Ungood]

No. The devs have stated that the khopesh is not working as intended. They made it, and it's doing what it was made to do. If they are a little unhappy with it, it is in balancing effects that add to damage that heavily favor the khopesh, but that still doesn't mean it isn't WAI.

Ummm.. wouldn't this be like the very definition of what "not working as intended" is?

It's not at all unreasonable for us to have best weapons.

Maybe not, but is poor game design to have a "best" weapon type in the game as it forces players into Cookie Cutter Builds and limits their choices.

And while most MMO's are all about shoehorning and cookie cutters, one of the best things about DDO is it's diversity factor, which by making a best weapon they pretty much shoot that in the foot.

However, how about make Bastard-Sword Martial Weapons for Half-Orcs (and Pun very much intended), and call it a wash.

That would balance it out a bit, as all other exotic weapons can be gained via Race or Class combos without expending a feat to get them.

Which would leave Khopesh as the only exotic weapon in the game that requires a feat, which would justify it's placement upon the Melee pedestal.

And while we may call it a Khopesh, lets be real...

[MRMechMan]

The fact that it isn't working the same as in Pnp is not evidence that it isn't working as intended...

or is every enhancement ever not working as intended?

Due to the fairly small number of combinations of crit range, crit multiplier and base damage, one weapon WILL be the highest dps.

This isn't like the khopesh is doing double damage of other 1 handers, or even +20%. It's not even 10%, and it costs a feat.

[licho]

This isn't like the khopesh is doing double damage of other 1 handers, or even +20%. It's not even 10%, and it costs a feat.

There are at least 3 wrong things in this sentences:
1. For each 1 point of base dmg scimitars generate .3 critical dmg. Khopesh .4. So actually its close to 10%. +1 point from better dice. There is no longer level cap of 14, and with all new stuff we get more and more base dmg.
2. Not every race benefits from khopeshmadness. Horcs, humans - yes. Dwarves, elves - no. Is it fair?
3. If you are let say axe or scimitar user and u take all the feats to boost your dmg you will encounter the poit after 5 feats where the next step to improve your dmg is to take khopesh proficiency.

The result is the exiting state of the game when going with anything but khopesh on 2wf is intentional gimping your toon. Is it good design?

Problem could be preatty much solved with such a feat.

[sephiroth1084]

Ummm.. wouldn't this be like the very definition of what "not working as intended" is?

The definition of "not WAI" is" the game is not functioning in a way that the developers intended for it to work. They made khopesh 19-20/x3. They have never said this is not what they intended to do. It isn't a bug. That means it's WAI.

Maybe not, but is poor game design to have a "best" weapon type in the game as it forces players into Cookie Cutter Builds and limits their choices.

And I already pointed out how khopesh isn't the best weapon type in the game, though, really, the level of "cookie-cutter-ness" derived from khopeshes being the best 1-handed weapons in the game is pretty minimal... You aren't locking people into all using the same specific weapon, and it's only 1 of 7 feats we're talking about here for most characters. That is hardly cookie cutter.

Stop being dense, or intentionally obtuse. The khopesh is not that far ahead of the better 1-handers, and doesn't restrict build choices, or game diversity in any significant fashion. Again, the way to expand those things is to make other options more attractive than they are, or to give us more options--in this case, feats--that compete for selection with EWP:Khopesh.

[sephiroth1084]

There are at least 3 wrong things in this sentences:
1. For each 1 point of base dmg scimitars generate .3 critical dmg. Khopesh .4. So actually its close to 10%. +1 point from better dice. There is no longer level cap of 14, and with all new stuff we get more and more base dmg.
2. Not every race benefits from khopeshmadness. Horcs, humans - yes. Dwarves, elves - no. Is it fair?
3. If you are let say axe or scimitar user and u take all the feats to boost your dmg you will encounter the poit after 5 feats where the next step to improve your dmg is to take khopesh proficiency.

The result is the exiting state of the game when going with anything but khopesh on 2wf is intentional gimping your toon. Is it good design?

Problem could be preatty much solved with such a feat.

The reason people use scimitars now is that they don't want, or can't afford, to take EWP: Khopesh. Adding a feat that make scimitars slightly better once you add in burst effects that don't scale well, or at all, with multiplier (alignment burst, Radiance, and some others) basically serves to allow players who want an upgrade from the khopeshes they already have to swap to scimitars or rapiers if they can leverage those effects. If they already have a bunch of khopeshes, they probably don't bother. If they can't get those extra bursts, they probably don't bother. If they weren't using khopeshes already because they couldn't fit in the extra feat, they don't bother.

You end up with some elves switching back to scimitars, and some players flipping a coin or going with the weapon-type they think looks cooler, which they probably would have done without the inclusion of the feat anyway. Bastard sword users don't end up gaining any benefit, in most cases, since they're already strapped for feats.

Maybe that's balance, but I don't think it's doing it in quite the right way. I'd rather see weapons improved in some different ways, rather than trying to all just make them the same thing for the same cost.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I'd like to see more situationally best weapons.

Once upon a time, a Heavy Pick specced Kensai Fighter made sense. It was almost as good as a Khopesh against bosses and it was absolutely outstanding against trash in an auto-crit situation.

But now, it's almost as good against bosses and almost as good against held/stunned trash. There is no reason to to take a specialization in Heavy Picks unless you have some sort of Rakshasa fetish.

I'd like to get back to a situation where one weapon was clearly the best in some situations and another weapon was clearly the best in another situation. That doesn't require a nerf to Khopeshes. That requires some fundamental design changes that would make DDO more interesting.

[licho]

The definition of "not WAI" is" the game is not functioning in a way that the developers intended for it to work. They made khopesh 19-20/x3. They have never said this is not what they intended to do. It isn't a bug. That means it's WAI.

And I already pointed out how khopesh isn't the best weapon type in the game, though, really, the level of "cookie-cutter-ness" derived from khopeshes being the best 1-handed weapons in the game is pretty minimal... You aren't locking people into all using the same specific weapon, and it's only 1 of 7 feats we're talking about here for most characters. That is hardly cookie cutter.

Stop being dense, or intentionally obtuse. The khopesh is not that far ahead of the better 1-handers, and doesn't restrict build choices, or game diversity in any significant fashion. Again, the way to expand those things is to make other options more attractive than they are, or to give us more options--in this case, feats--that compete for selection with EWP:Khopesh.

About WAI: Anybody remembers if in times of auto crits on hold or WoPs devs declared that its not a WAI?
Like "its not what we wanted, but it will stay here for a year or two, and then we will change it, we have no idea in what direction. I doubt so. So whats the WAI, and whats not we will learn just before update changing it.

The difference between PA, IC, 2wf is that for every build it works preatty much the same. You can take it for rapiers, daggers, handwraps... it dosnt limit your weapon choice. Also every race benefit from it. Khopeshes favorize certain races, and are limiting weapon choice to one.

The impact of khopesh is more significant. For each 10 dmg per hit (+ seeker) Khopesh creates 1 dmg advantage over scimitars. So as soon you reach something like 40 base its already +5 to avarage. Now 40 its just a beggining, and you can push much futher.

You probably dont know what you are asking for saying "just give more feats". Imagine there are 3 more feats each giving from 3 to 10 dmg depending on how good build you has. Not only we will still have mass khopeshes. But also everyone will be running something like Monk 2/fighter 6 just to get it all.

[MRMechMan]

There are at least 3 wrong things in this sentences:
1. For each 1 point of base dmg scimitars generate .3 critical dmg. Khopesh .4. So actually its close to 10%. +1 point from better dice. There is no longer level cap of 14, and with all new stuff we get more and more base dmg.
2. Not every race benefits from khopeshmadness. Horcs, humans - yes. Dwarves, elves - no. Is it fair?
3. If you are let say axe or scimitar user and u take all the feats to boost your dmg you will encounter the poit after 5 feats where the next step to improve your dmg is to take khopesh proficiency.

The result is the exiting state of the game when going with anything but khopesh on 2wf is intentional gimping your toon. Is it good design?

Problem could be preatty much solved with such a feat.

After enhancements they are what...5% dps behind...maybe even equal or AHEAD if the +attack enhancements mean they are hitting on a 2 and a 3 that they wouldn't do so with khopesh. AND, they saved a feat!

I don't see anyone being turned away from groups because they aren't using khopesh...

[Enoach]

Back in '06 when I first started playing I pick Khopesh because it was different. Admittedly I was disappointed to find that Khopesh did not have the exceptional vertigo attached, but I got over it.

Personally I think if they implemented the Feat for Bastard Sword and Dwarven Ax making them usable as single handed weapons with the Feat and Two Handed without the feat, that would be a greater impact on builds.

[Talias006]

There are at least 3 wrong things in this sentences:
1. For each 1 point of base dmg scimitars generate .3 critical dmg. Khopesh .4. So actually its close to 10%. +1 point from better dice. There is no longer level cap of 14, and with all new stuff we get more and more base dmg.

No arguments here, since I care nothing about the math side of this.

2. Not every race benefits from khopeshmadness. Horcs, humans - yes. Dwarves, elves - no. Is it fair?

How do Elves and Dwarves not benefit from khopesh the same as Human and Half-Orc?
Easy answer is they do benefit the EXACT same amount.

It's just that they can use enhancements to improve racially granted weapons.
That is NOT the same as not being able to benefit from Khopesh weapon, other than having to take Khopesh Feat to ignore the -4 attack.

3. If you are let say axe or scimitar user and u take all the feats to boost your dmg you will encounter the poit after 5 feats where the next step to improve your dmg is to take khopesh proficiency.

I think you are confusing Enhancements earned via AP as Feats.
Either way, the next step isn't always take a new weapon, which would negate the purpose of taking those Enhancements, since you cannot use them with the new weapon.

The result is the exiting state of the game when going with anything but khopesh on 2wf is intentional gimping your toon. Is it good design?

You're only gimping yourself if you believe it's a mistake maneuver and choose it anyways.
Myself, I choose to believe the only mistakes I make are the ones I learn from.

Gimping implies that you made a mistake on purpose.
Or that others views are more valuable than your own and peer pressure is making you conform to a given subset of standards.

Problem could be preatty much solved with such a feat.

Bonus: 1k posts.

[licho]

After enhancements they are what...5% dps behind...maybe even equal or AHEAD if the +attack enhancements mean they are hitting on a 2 and a 3 that they wouldn't do so with khopesh. AND, they saved a feat!

Why Dwarves and Elves benefit less from Khopeshes?
Its quite simple. Elves/Dwarves can choose khopesh, or racial weapon. So instead spending feat they spend AP. To get more or less the sime. Racial Weapon is stronger early on, khopesh gets forward in late. Heavy Fort hurts racials less. So far so good.

But.
The other races can get a khopesh, and add to this own enhacements. And each has its own set.
For example Horcas can add +3PA and +2 from str, which stack very nicly with Khopesh crits.
Humans/HE can use the AB which also stack in a very nice way.
HE/Halfing SA adds to any weapon.

So simply some races can spend more into own DPS, and get better result.

I don't see anyone being turned away from groups because they aren't using khopesh...

This is kind of statment when we know we are not right, and trying to trivalize whole problem.
It dosnt matter if somebody is turn away for weapon choice, it dont influence the state of balance and that one option is better. Not everyobody likes the situacion when there is one best option. Some people likes variety.

No arguments here, since I care nothing about the math side of this.

This is the problem with Math, even if you dont care about it, it still works.

[sephiroth1084]

If the racial weapon bonuses were slightly better, dwarven axes would be pretty close to khopeshes until you figure in burst abilities, and scimitars would be equal or ahead. If you assume someone has +60 to their damage multiplied on crits, a khopesh has the equivalent of 67, and a scimitar in the hands of an elf has 62. If the racial bonus got up to +4 damage per hit instead of +2, that would be 64 vs. 67, and the elf didn't have to burn a feat, and the elf can have +2 to-hit over the khopesh, which is relevant in a lot of content. Or the elf could pick up OTWF instead of EWP: Khopesh and end up essentially +4 to-hit better.

There are plenty of other ways to balance weapon selection.

Put more undead into the game and more percentage-based procs, or vorpal procs, and maybe bludgeoning weapons will become relevant as a focus for weapon styles. Paladins with Exalted Smite tend to benefit more from scimitars when smiting than khopeshes, but they don't get enough smites for that to be a major consideration. Change that and you'll lend more weight to not bothering to spend a feat on EWP, though there already is weight there, since many classes are tight on feats.

[Ungood]

khopesh isn't the best weapon type in the game

There are only 2 boss mobs in the entire game that have 100% fort, and if you are using a Khopesh on the Abbot, there are more things wrong with that situation then just wondering if the crit profile is better then a scimitar.

[licho]

If the racial weapon bonuses were slightly better, dwarven axes would be pretty close to khopeshes until you figure in burst abilities, and scimitars would be equal or ahead. If you assume someone has +60 to their damage multiplied on crits, a khopesh has the equivalent of 67, and a scimitar in the hands of an elf has 62. If the racial bonus got up to +4 damage per hit instead of +2, that would be 64 vs. 67, and the elf didn't have to burn a feat, and the elf can have +2 to-hit over the khopesh, which is relevant in a lot of content. Or the elf could pick up OTWF instead of EWP: Khopesh and end up essentially +4 to-hit better.

There is no rule which forbids Khopesh users pick Otwf as well. Its just a build. If we go with something like Kensai III/Monk 2 we still have place for that and the dps will be good enought.

We dont compare khopesh elf vs scimitar elf, but scimitar elf vs Horc Khopesher. And as elves get their +2/+2 the Horcs get +2/+2 from str, and -3/+3 from racial PA. So the numbers are more like 63 vs 75. (str and PA are crited as well) Sure always there will be best melee race, but the difference could be less than 10 points.

There are plenty of other ways to balance weapon selection.

I can however agree that, boosting racial weapon to +4/+4 and +4 racial seeker, and/or different bonuses (chance for doublestrike, debuffing, sundering, tendor slice...) will be good solution. However first we must admit that the inbalance exist, and actually its not like everything works fine as is.

Put more undead into the game and more percentage-based procs, or vorpal procs, and maybe bludgeoning weapons will become relevant as a focus for weapon styles. Paladins with Exalted Smite tend to benefit more from scimitars when smiting than khopeshes, but they don't get enough smites for that to be a major consideration. Change that and you'll lend more weight to not bothering to spend a feat on EWP, though there already is weight there, since many classes are tight on feats.

I would hold on with undeads in game, there is already more than enought of this dead meat, adding more late game elementals, or some early constructs sounds much better. And i suppose that all rogues, kensai, berserkers would like to see their crits sometimes. Different builds may use better some weapons, Paladins have better smites with scimitars, cool. But Kensai III have better mastery with Khopeshes. And whats more important?

[Ungood]

The definition of "not WAI" is" the game is not functioning in a way that the developers intended for it to work. They made khopesh 19-20/x3. They have never said this is not what they intended to do. It isn't a bug. That means it's WAI.

That is what you have opted to arbitrarily believe it to mean.

No. The devs have stated that the khopesh is not working as intended. They made it, and it's doing what it was made to do. If they are a little unhappy with it, it is in balancing effects that add to damage that heavily favor the khopesh, but that still doesn't mean it isn't WAI.

The green is all it takes for something to no longer be WAI in reality.

I could give you a list of things that were WAI as your definition that were changed because they were NOT working as intend from the Dev's point of view.

All I am going to say, is don't kid yourself that Khopesh are in fact WAI, they are not. If they have lasted as long as they have, it is probably because the Devs have other more pressing things to do or don't quite know what to do about the situation yet.

[Metaljaw]

Lets just make everything have the same damage as a dagger. That should balance the game, right? No wait. Some classes have different starting stats. OK, easy to handle. Lets make everything start at 8. No wait. Some people start at different point allocations. So lets just make everyone a 28 point build. No wait. Some classes have different strengths. Lets just make a generic class that can use daggers, cast a fireball, and sing to people. No wait, some people are natually better skilled players and have faster reflexes. OK. Lets make sure the game only responds with a 1/2 second delay after any stimulus is triggered. No wait, some people might actually take a different path. Maybe we should just make the game a non-interactive video presentation.

I think that covers most of everything. Now that is a game I want to play.

/sarcasm off

Seriously, why the heck does everyone want to nerf stuff. Go play WoW if you like that sort of thing and want cookie cutter builds. Leave DDO alone.

[Ungood]

Seriously, why the heck does everyone want to nerf stuff.

Honestly I don't want to nerf anything. By and large whatever happens to Khopesh is pretty much a non-issue to me as I'll adapt and move on, like I have with all the other nerfs and changes they have done in the past that I have found to be quite annoying. Would I rather they did not do anything to the Khopesh and maybe just gave B-Sword to Half Orcs and called it a day in the balancing department, sure, I'd love that. Do I think it will happen? Nahh, Too easy.

The only point I made was that is it not WAI.

What people want to make of that tidbit of info is up to them.

[Aaxeyu]

Umm to be fair, this is not true, they are not WAI.

What? That's ridiculous. There is no reason to believe that they don't work as intended.
They are well balanced.

[sephiroth1084]

That is what you have opted to arbitrarily believe it to mean.



The green is all it takes for something to no longer be WAI in reality.

I could give you a list of things that were WAI as your definition that were changed because they were NOT working as intend from the Dev's point of view.

All I am going to say, is don't kid yourself that Khopesh are in fact WAI, they are not. If they have lasted as long as they have, it is probably because the Devs have other more pressing things to do or don't quite know what to do about the situation yet.

There is a difference between WAI or not, and the devs deciding that they would like something to work differently. One implies that something is functioning in an unintended fashion, while the other shows that, despite something working correctly, the devs decided they wanted it to work differently. Ultimately, this is all semantics, but parading around false logic irritates me.

There is no rule which forbids Khopesh users pick Otwf as well. Its just a build. If we go with something like Kensai III/Monk 2 we still have place for that and the dps will be good enought.

For a fighter, yes. For anyone else? Less likely. You can't simply compare the weapon to every other weapon on the characters best suited to making use of them (fighters with feats to spend an a lot of bonuses to add to them) and ignore the fact that, for many characters, they simply aren't the best weapon to be using, whether due to the feat cost, or their wanting the to-hit bonus from their racial weapon line, or because they prefer more crits to bigger ones.

We dont compare khopesh elf vs scimitar elf, but scimitar elf vs Horc Khopesher. And as elves get their +2/+2 the Horcs get +2/+2 from str, and -3/+3 from racial PA. So the numbers are more like 63 vs 75. (str and PA are crited as well) Sure always there will be best melee race, but the difference could be less than 10 points.

Actually, you do compare elf with a scimitar to elf with a khopesh, because once you bring half-orcs in you are discussing a lot more than just the khopesh and whether it is "fair" or not. The fact is, the horc is going to be quite a bit better than the elf when using scimitars as well, since they get the same attack bonus with them, and a lot more damage. Other things need to change for that sort of comparison to be at all relevant to this topic of discussion.

I can however agree that, boosting racial weapon to +4/+4 and +4 racial seeker, and/or different bonuses (chance for doublestrike, debuffing, sundering, tendor slice...) will be good solution. However first we must admit that the inbalance exist, and actually its not like everything works fine as is.

We did admit that, and have established that it isn't such a big deal, and that ultimately, it is pretty balanced due to its limitations and requirements. You add all that stuff to racial weapon enhancements, and scimitars will end up being much better than khopeshes in the hands of an elf, and likely close to being on par with horcs wielding khopeshes.

I would hold on with undeads in game, there is already more than enought of this dead meat, adding more late game elementals, or some early constructs sounds much better. And i suppose that all rogues, kensai, berserkers would like to see their crits sometimes. Different builds may use better some weapons, Paladins have better smites with scimitars, cool. But Kensai III have better mastery with Khopeshes. And whats more important?

My point was that there are a lot of ways to bring about some semblance of balance, which you ignored.