Khopesh fix

[nibel]

How do the crit numbers actually compare between 15-20/x2 and 17-18/x2, 19-20/x3?

If they are close to identical, you just made the khopesh completely worthless, since it really isn't worth spending a feat to move from scimitars to khopeshes.

It's worth if people only want max dps. It's the only change I could think of to sustain the khopesh as a DPS weapon without it being a no-brainer to any melee like it is today.

I agree that weapon users (melee AND ranged) need a buff to close the gap to casters today. But every melee buff will be highly amplified with some over the edge weapons. eSoS is one of them, but it is only one rare weapon. Khopeshes is another, and this one is a full weapon type that should be fixed as a whole. Epic khopeshes, like Chaosblade, could be as über as eSoS as they want (and epic D-axes, longswords, rapiers, scimitars, and such).

It's the same thing with manyshot. Manyshot is the best 20-seconds DPS in the entire game, hands down. So, everything they may do to fix the average ranged DPS, will be amplified on those 20-seconds of manyshot. Except if they "fix" manyshot to bearable levels.

Glancing blows on 1-handed weapons can remain in some form, but it should not be only for 2 specific weapons.

Agree. Some one-handed martial weapons can use glancing blows too, like warhammers, battleaxes and longswords. That alone would open a can of new builds around, and raise versatility between the defenders of today (my SD dwarf cries every time he need to switch to a skelly beater).

[Aaxeyu]

Hit the nail on the head. Nerfing is the absolute worst way to bring balance into the game. It's Bad Game Design 101

Ironically enough it's "Nerfing is the absolute worst way to bring balance into the game" that is bad game design 101. You can't have that as a rule or the power creep would be ridiculous. It would also be alot more unbalance, as it takes alot more time to increase everything to be balanced around the one overpowered thing than to nerf the one overpowered thing to be balanced around the rest of the game.

Nerfing leads to things like WoW

You automatically lost the argument....

[HungarianRhapsody]

It's worth if people only want max dps. It's the only change I could think of to sustain the khopesh as a DPS weapon without it being a no-brainer to any melee like it is today.

Why is it worthwhile if people want max DPS? The Khopesh change listed in the OP gives the Khopesh the exact same DPS as a Scimitar while still offering less value for on-crit effects like Radiance. Why would anyone want to pay a feat to end up with the same DPS as a Scimitar and less utility?

[nibel]

Rather than being over-powered, Khopesh is the only exotic weapon that is actually worth the cost of the feat expenditure.

Nope, it's a no-brainer. This is a different monster. Toughness is a no-brainer too on the actual game stage (some time ago, when not every race had toughness enhancements, they weren't even looked that hard).

No-brainers are bad to the game because they reduce choices. Barbarians and rogues are 2 classes that, going pure, have very few choices on feats. Full TWF/THF lines, and Improved Critical leave them with 3 choices for non-humans. Barbarians need Power Attack and Cleave for the only prestige they have, so they only have one choice to made in their entire feat list.

The correct, intelligent game design answer would be to make the other exotic weapons more attractive, and more worth the feat cost. Glancing Blows while in S&B mode do not do this.

Actually, it does, if you want to be a tank. And since U9, we have getting a lot of buffs to melee tanks. If your shield-mode is only a emergency mode to tank when things go south, then not so much.

Quick example? Look at how many builds born around Chimera's Fang, and how many of them includes B-sword proficiency to "use other weapons when you dont need the fang". If they were building only for fang sinergy, they could ignore the glancing blows and get a scimitar or rapier as a secondary weapon.

Therefore the other exotics need to be made more attractive still. Exotics should be better than martial weapons, which should be better than simple weapons, barring named items.

Agree. I'm just not sure if we agree on how much more powerful they should be. On PnP, the difference was around +1 damage (raising the dice damage), or some special bonus (like sai have +4 to disarm, khopesh have +2 to trip, and spiked chain have a bigger threathening area). DDO's khopesh is almost as much of a game-changer as is PnP's Spiked Chain. And if you know anything about character optimization on 3e, you know that any "serious" fighter needed a spiked chain to be more than a pack mule after mid-levels.

----------------------
OFF-Topic
----------------------

Nerfing is the absolute worst way to bring balance into the game. It's Bad Game Design 101. Looking at weak options and see where and why they are weak, and figuring out ways to make them equally attractive to the strong ones is Good Game Design 101. It's harder, but leads to a quality game. Nerfing leads to things like WoW, which has lost how many players in the last few months? Wasn't it bleeding players in 6 digit numbers?

Actually, most wow bloggers think that what killed many wow subs were the cattering to the top players. Unfriendly heroics and such. I don't know the detail, I dont play too much wow. But it wasn't the nerfs.

[nibel]

Why is it worthwhile if people want max DPS? The Khopesh change listed in the OP gives the Khopesh the exact same DPS as a Scimitar while still offering less value for on-crit effects like Radiance. Why would anyone want to pay a feat to end up with the same DPS as a Scimitar and less utility?

Better base damage.

It's the same argument they gave for B-swords and D-axes being on par with Khopesh before the U5 changes.

[Talias006]

.



.

If you raise the bar for other non Exotic weapons to give glancing blows, how would you then give the extra oomph that b-swords and d-axes deserve because they are exotic?

And thank you for pointing to your previous posts which don't help me at all since I had already seen them.
Much appreciated.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Better base damage.

It's the same argument they gave for B-swords and D-axes being on par with Khopesh before the U5 changes.

So... I'm spending a feat for +1 damage per hit? That doesn't sound like a good deal. I think most people would go for a 7th Toughness feat on their Fighter.

B-Swords and D-Axes are actually decent when you get glancing blows with them.

I'd be fine with giving the Khopesh a reduced crit profile for anyone who doesn't have proficiency with them. I'd be fine with giving people a -4 To Hit penalty for not having proficiency with them. They really aren't the massively overpowered monstrosity that so many people think they are, though. They offer a couple of percentage points of damage over the second-best TWF weapons in the game and they cost a feat. They provide less of a DPS boost than Power Attack. They provide less of a DPS boost than Improved Crit. They provide less of a DPS boost than any of the TWF feat chain. If you are missing on a 2 (and most players are against at least some enemies even if they don't realize it), then even Weapon Focus offers a bigger DPS boost than the Khopesh feat.

Khopesh is not overpowered.

[Aaxeyu]

If you raise the bar for other non Exotic weapons to give glancing blows, how would you then give the extra oomph that b-swords and d-axes deserve because they are exotic?

And thank you for pointing to your previous posts which don't help me at all since I had already seen them.
Much appreciated.

They should be buffed

..

[Talias006]

..

I get that.
They should be buffed if more weapons get the ability to deal glancing blows.
Acknowledging this and perhaps offering your own idea for a buff would make more sense than just tossing out your own quotes.
That, IMO, is bordering on the tawdry and tedious.

[azrael4h]

Ironically enough it's "Nerfing is the absolute worst way to bring balance into the game" that is bad game design 101. You can't have that as a rule or the power creep would be ridiculous. It would also be alot more unbalance, as it takes alot more time to increase everything to be balanced around the one overpowered thing than to nerf the one overpowered thing to be balanced around the rest of the game.

Since you live in a fantasy world, I'll explain something. Power creep is part of MMO design. In fact, it's part of cRPG design. Why? Because only a tiny fraction of the gaming population cares about actual role-playing, even accounting for the PnP community. Thus you have hack and slash games, which utimately end up being you killing and looting more powerful items to go after yet even more powerful items. When you no longer have power-creep due to new and more powerful items and abilities being added, you no longer have a actively developed game. There's been a lot of whining about the lack of anything to surpass the eSoS yet, and thus not giving THF melees anything to aim for.

If you think Khopesh is so vastly over-powered then what is Power Attack? It brings more dps gain to the table. Improved Critical brings more dps gain to the table. Those are no-brainers. Khopesh isn't that far ahead of Scimitar and Rapier to be a no-brainer, unless you are a hard-core min-maxer.

On my first Exploiter, I used Scimitars until 12, at which point I slowly switched to Khopeshes. Quite frankly, if I could have redone it without spending any money, the Khopesh feat was wasted. I'd have been better off with Quicken, for more reliable self-healing in the thick of things. It simply was not that much better vs the Scimitars I was using, base damage to base damage. The Icy Bursted Paralyzers were sweet though.

You automatically lost the argument....

So if I disagree with you, I lose the argument then. Care to invoke Godwin as well? It will make your argument more appealing.

[QUOTE=nibel;4347073]Nope, it's a no-brainer. This is a different monster. Toughness is a no-brainer too on the actual game stage (some time ago, when not every race had toughness enhancements, they weren't even looked that hard). [quote]

Here we disagree. Khopesh is only a no-brainer if you're super-hardcore min-max dpser. There are other dps feats which give much higher dps increases. I see many Barbarian builds dumping Toughness as well, in favor of Stunning Blow, which is a no-brainer on any melee that can fit it and get viable DCs. I would rate Improved Trip higher than Khopesh, actually, since it helps prevent damage.

Actually, it does, if you want to be a tank. And since U9, we have getting a lot of buffs to melee tanks. If your shield-mode is only a emergency mode to tank when things go south, then not so much.

Quick example? Look at how many builds born around Chimera's Fang, and how many of them includes B-sword proficiency to "use other weapons when you dont need the fang". If they were building only for fang sinergy, they could ignore the glancing blows and get a scimitar or rapier as a secondary weapon.

How many encounters require a dedicated S&B tank to complete? To my knowledge, only Lord of Blades really needs one. Maybe Spinner would work better with one, but since I only ran that once, solo, on my Sorc, I can't comment there. ToD Elite was "tanked" by Barbarians and Kensai Fighters for years. VoD is even easier. Hound doesn't require a tank, it requires a chew toy. Until the upping of difficulty Reavers was more a challenge to stay awake in.

Most of the time, I see Defenders using Two-handed weapons in a DPS mode, not S&B. Because most of the time, even with the glancing blows and Improved Shield Bash, it's better to go full out DPS than opt for a defensive mode.

This is an issue with game design as well; and is why the glancing blows on S&B didn't balance things: 98% of the game you do not really need a real tank, and S&B is either a wash, or worse a hindrance. Does it help, certainly it does. I much prefer healing VoD or ToD with a real tank vs a Barbarian or a Warforged. Hound is vastly easier with someone who isn't so squishy to be in constant danger of instant death. Is it required? Not hardly, I've healed them all except MA and LoB without one. Too hard to find a capable tank when pugging to rely on always having on.

Now things might change if we get more content which actually would require a tank.

Agree. I'm just not sure if we agree on how much more powerful they should be. On PnP, the difference was around +1 damage (raising the dice damage), or some special bonus (like sai have +4 to disarm, khopesh have +2 to trip, and spiked chain have a bigger threathening area). DDO's khopesh is almost as much of a game-changer as is PnP's Spiked Chain. And if you know anything about character optimization on 3e, you know that any "serious" fighter needed a spiked chain to be more than a pack mule after mid-levels.

Here we agree. The real issue is with other aspects of DDO's game design, which has pretty much pidgeon-holed classes quite a bit, melee-wise. Things are changing though, which is good. We need more quests and raids which don't reward sheer dps only, which reward tactical feats and play.

I think the main difference is you think that you will be completely useless if you don't take Khopesh as a DPS melee. Having experienced both Scimitar and Khopesh TWF melee, I think it's not necessary at all to be effective, no where near on par with Improved Critical, Toughness, Shield Mastery, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, etc... My old Paladin would have been better served with Weapon Focus:Slashing (or maybe OTWF, I can't recall her feat list anymore) and using Scimitars instead of Khopeshes.

Actually, most wow bloggers think that what killed many wow subs were the cattering to the top players. Unfriendly heroics and such. I don't know the detail, I dont play too much wow. But it wasn't the nerfs.

Most of the complaining I've seen has been from people saying they "ruined <insert favored class here>". I also knew some people who left DDO, and have not come back, from before U5, due to the Tempest and TWF rape. Among other nerfs. However, I'll raise you Star Wars Galaxies. NGE. I'd say go play the game and see how well that's doing, but you know, it's dead, Jim. It had a mass exodus after that, and never really recovered.

I'd be fine with giving the Khopesh a reduced crit profile for anyone who doesn't have proficiency with them. I'd be fine with giving people a -4 To Hit penalty for not having proficiency with them.

Now this I can get behind. It doesn't make sense that all the benefits of an item can be gained without proficiency. Yeah, you can use it, but as long as you have a high enough STR or enough to-hit bonuses, it won't matter. It's the same as if you had proficiency.

[licho]

So how much shoudl the dps feat be worth?

Weapon Specializacion brings +2 dmg.
Also people fit the whole weapon sets just for this extra 2dmg so its good mark whats is worth the effor.

The 2WF/2HF lines, and PA, and Crit itself brings more than 2dmg, but... this lines do not narrow the weapon selection. (you may use greatclub or Greataxe and this PA will be worth more or less the same) Also from PA, or 2hf can benefit mostly any race/class combo.

How much gives khopesh? Lets assume we r somehow middle warrior and our base to crit (with seeker) is just a 60.
The Current Khopesh have better profile over scimitars of 0,1 per dmg/hit. So on this ovarage blow we get extra 7dmg (1 from better dice). If you builded up and have better base the profit rises.

Do you understand now what no brainer means?

But who cares, more power to melee, why you nerf melees again?
Suprisngly not every melee benefit from the khopesh in the same way.
For example Horc benefit in much degree, since the extra PA and Str boost the crit profile.
Human, or HE also benefit from Khopeshy (dmg boost) or it dosnt matter (dilletante SA).
On the other side elves and dvarves do not benefit from khopesh supremacy at all.

So as long as we care about balance the khopesh should be roduced to something more like weapon specializacion. (+2dmg)
And the nibil's idea is very good base.
Maybe it should be more like Elasticity +1d6 on crits. So the avarage will be more like 2, but it will be finitive (current is potencially infinitive).

The other solution is introduce a new feat:

Khopeshize:
Req: BAB +1, any single handed martial, or simple weapon. Cant be khopesh.
Effect: This feat increase dmg dealed by your weapon of choice by 5% since why not. It cost a feat and it should pay off.
Additional notes: Fighters, Monks, and Rogues can pick it as class feat. Can be taken multiply times (each times for different weapon). Cant be taken for Khopesh.

Of course there will be improved khopeshize, and greater khopeshize up to 15% dmg increase, for 3 feats. As we know feats are very valuable for everyone so its of course fair.

Problem solved, everybody happy.

[Zinruko]

I don't really understand these "nerf khopesh" threads. Folks seem to be under the impression that if khopesh DPS was brought down, people would suddenly start using all of those non-khopesh weapons that no one uses right now, that we'd see a wide variety of weapons being used by players. That simply isn't true. Folks gravitate to the khopesh right now because it's the best available option. It's not forced on them. That means that if you implement a khopesh nerf, one of two things will happen:

1) The nerf doesn't reduce the bump to DPS khopeshes provide enough to matter, and everyone continues using khopeshes. Nothing changes.

2) The nerf makes the khopesh feat no longer worthwhile, by either making the increase to DPS so small you're better off taking a different DPS-increasing feat or making it not increase DPS at all, and everyone stops using khopeshes altogether. Everyone will instead use the next best weapons on the DPS tier list- rapiers and scimitars. No one other than flavor builds will use anything else, because they'll be the best available DPS option. Instead of being gimp for not using khopeshes, you'll being gimp for not using rapiers/scimitars. I think this is what people don't really get. Folks seem to think there's only two different groups of weapons when it comes to DPS- "khopeshes" and "everything else" when in reality khopeshes just make up one of about five or six distinct DPS tiers of weapons. Nerf one, and everyone moves on to the next highest tier. So this nerf wouldn't accomplish anything, other than causing a lot of folks to angrily re-grind a bunch of weapons and applying a hilarious nerf to melee DPS. Ha ha.

Very well said.

[sephiroth1084]

Except that if you had a choice between a longsword and a bastard sword, almost everyone would choose the longsword, because spending a feat for +1 average damage isn't all that impressive. It ends up being a bit more once you figure in bigger damage dice from greensteel, epics and alchemicals, but still ends up being pretty mediocre.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Beefing up fortification of mobs across the board would equalize alot of weaponry automatically, khopeshes included.

Then again, this would only favor casters even more, so to avoid that, all mobs should also receive increased elemental resistances across the board.

[CodyGenX]

Beefing up fortification of mobs across the board would equalize alot of weaponry automatically, khopeshes included.

Then again, this would only favor casters even more, so to avoid that, all mobs should also receive increased elemental resistances across the board.

You do realize this would hurt melees more than casters right? Sure let's give all epic mobs 25% more fort oh and 20 Resists to all elemental damage... Oh wait, none of my elemental damage/bursts are hitting anymore losing all of the damage other than holy (Which doesn't hit all mobs).

That will surely mess with the Wizzy triple stacking Niac/Eladars and spamming his PM SLAs, and the Sorc Savant doing -15% elemental weakness (don't forget bypassing 15 off the top in their specified element) popping off 500+ damage on a BDB, or Triple stacked Niac/Eladars

[nibel]

Since you live in a fantasy world, I'll explain something. Power creep is part of MMO design.

Still not a good idea to feed it up as fast as they can. Power creep is inevitable, but is just good faith trying to postpone it as far as they can. Quick DDO example? The first epic weapons used Greensteel as a comparative base. Some are better, others are worse, but they are about the same power level.

There's been a lot of whining about the lack of anything to surpass the eSoS yet, and thus not giving THF melees anything to aim for.

If you get your hands into a eSoS, you dont need any other Two-handed weapon. Maybe something for uncritabble mobs, but that's it. Myself, I dont see this as "we need more eSoS", but "eSoS is too powerful".

Khopesh isn't that far ahead of Scimitar and Rapier to be a no-brainer, unless you are a hard-core min-maxer.

Here we disagree. Khopesh is only a no-brainer if you're super-hardcore min-max dpser.

I have one character that use khopesh: A level 10 kensai that is parked for almost a year. Never found them all that useful.

But is annoying when everyone asking for soem help on their build, and the first thing everyone says for almost every melee build is "get twf, improved crit and khopesh. Maybe OTWF". I see more people saying to not take power attack (on rogues and such) than saying to not take khopesh.

How many encounters require a dedicated S&B tank to complete?

Very few.

But Shield Mastery got very tasty recently, and if you like survability, you may thing about walking around with a shield most of the time, only switching for a two-hander when you are shure you don't need the shield (not tanking a boss, fighting casters and beholders, etc). For a class without self-healing like fighters, the 20% damage reduction is tempting. And then, glancing blows while S&B are one of the best options around.

Now this I can get behind. It doesn't make sense that all the benefits of an item can be gained without proficiency. Yeah, you can use it, but as long as you have a high enough STR or enough to-hit bonuses, it won't matter. It's the same as if you had proficiency.

That is basically my main point: Without proficiency, khopeshes should be fancy longswords, and nothing more. If you want all the tasty crits it have, get the feat.

[MRMechMan]

Melees don't need nerfing.

If anything buff the other weapons.

Nerfs **** people off. How many people have Echaosblades or teirIII GS khopeshes? A hell of a lot.

Khopesh users will be a lot less angry if other 1 handers get buffed, and honestly that's the way to do it.

[MRMechMan]

That is basically my main point: Without proficiency, khopeshes should be fancy longswords, and nothing more. If you want all the tasty crits it have, get the feat.

If a character is geared enough and has enough past lives to be able to eat that -4 attack penalty, they deserve to be able to save the feat and have the same weapon everyone else is using.

95%+ of characters using khopeshes cannot do that; the -4 to hit is enough to make getting the feat incentive enough.

[justagame]

Khopesh is the only exotic weapon proficiency that's actually worth spending a feat, IMO. You don't need it for dwarven axe, b. sword isn't worth it, (add to that the fact that the best b. sword in the game doesn't even need the feat!)

If it was ACTUALLY overpowered, then sure, one could argue for a nerf. But the fact that so many use them is not by itself evidence of OP-ness. The nerf described means the feat would no longer be worth taking, as it would no longer be better than other one-handed weapons that do NOT require feats.

If you want to ask why so many people use khopeshes, ask why the other exotic weapons are so poor in incremental value.

[sephiroth1084]

Beefing up fortification of mobs across the board would equalize alot of weaponry automatically, khopeshes included.

Then again, this would only favor casters even more, so to avoid that, all mobs should also receive increased elemental resistances across the board.

That would be awful! And honestly, if you can't recognize why, you probably shouldn't be making comments in discussions seeking to improve or balance the game at all.