Arcane Archer

[barecm]

It may be not the most popular build anymore for AA, but I like pure elf. I have 3+ past lives. At lvl 25, 659 HPs with ship buffs, 40 dex and 36 str. I twisted in primal scream (lvl 1 twist) which gives me over 40 str and 45 dex and over 700 hps for 5 mins. Then, add audience with the queeen for a potential boost there as well to hps. I have been over 1100 hps with all buffs.So don't think you HAVE to multiclass to have a reasonable amount of hps. Oh yeah, I have over 1000 sp too and hit myself with 90 or so healing per non-crit cure serious. That is if fast healing (lvl 1 twist) and healing spring have ticked and I need healing.Basically, with shiradi champion and twisting in fast healing, it is pretty ridiculous right now to be a ranger. Last choice will be a lvl 4 twist of either the deathblock armor one from the favored soul ED or the true sight one from the monk ED.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It may be not the most popular build anymore for AA, but I like pure elf. I have 3+ past lives. At lvl 25, 659 HPs with ship buffs, 40 dex and 36 str. I twisted in primal scream (lvl 1 twist) which gives me over 40 str and 45 dex and over 700 hps for 5 mins. Then, add audience with the queeen for a potential boost there as well to hps. I have been over 1100 hps with all buffs.So don't think you HAVE to multiclass to have a reasonable amount of hps. Oh yeah, I have over 1000 sp too and hit myself with 90 or so healing per non-crit cure serious. That is if fast healing (lvl 1 twist) and healing spring have ticked and I need healing.Basically, with shiradi champion and twisting in fast healing, it is pretty ridiculous right now to be a ranger. Last choice will be a lvl 4 twist of either the deathblock armor one from the favored soul ED or the true sight one from the monk ED.

Splashing isn't for HP but for DPS. For your last twist I'd go for Echoes of the Ancestor: Shiradi Champion (+1 dex, +10% attack speed) or Haste Boost III from Legendary Dreadnought.

I think the formula goes like this:
(.33+.66)*1.125=112.5% of base for pure elf AA
(.33*1.1*1.2+.396*2.25+.2)=152.7% of base for 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter AA

The pure elf build is at 74% of the DPS of the monk build. The pure elf has to make up for with higher base damage. Is that going to happen with +1 critical multiplier in earth stance III? Maybe close but nowhere near the 37% it has to add.

Mind you, at low levels of gear before EDs the pure elf is probably much closer but the more gear you add the bigger the difference becomes.

[barecm]

Splashing isn't for HP but for DPS. For your last twist I'd go for Echoes of the Ancestor: Shiradi Champion (+1 dex, +10% attack speed) or Haste Boost III from Legendary Dreadnought.

I think EotA requires song ability, right? Twisting that in would not work then. As for haste III, I prefer to twist in passive abilities as they are always on and not tied o charges / clickies / timers.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think EotA requires song ability, right? Twisting that in would not work then. As for haste III, I prefer to twist in passive abilities as they are always on and not tied o charges / clickies / timers.

If you twist a Fatesinger ability you're supposed to get 2 songs to use it with. EotA:SC is a passive stance I think so you just need to turn it on once and you're golden.

Normally I'd agree that boosts aren't good because of the activation time (1.6 seconds cuts into DPS) but you can hit it simultaneously with Manyshot to get a significant boost to your DPS (+7% as long as you have haste boosts left of which you can have quite a few as you can qualify for extra action boost).

Similarly, Versatility: Damage (which you could get as a half-elf) adds up to 8% to DPS depending on the split between main number/sneak attack damage and adds (so closest to 8% with a thornlord or the new bow for instance).

These figures are true as long as you can boost during Manyshot which as a ranger with access to extra action boost II you can do for 14 minutes. Not many encounters in the game that last longer than 14 minutes.

+2 att/dam from Elf is really insignificant compared to +8% from Half-elf before even adding in +3d6 SA (which is situational).

[Aerendil]

If you twist a Fatesinger ability you're supposed to get 2 songs to use it with. EotA:SC is a passive stance I think so you just need to turn it on once and you're golden.

Supposed to, yes, but can anyone confirm if it actually works?

If so, Reign and Tailwind could be quite nice to twist. Tailwind especially combined with Stand and Deliver = +16 dmg alone, not to mention any Ranger PL's or Elf's +2 dmg. Throw in clickies such as the +dmg you mentioned if half-elf, PL:SoS if available, +3d6 SA damage (if half-elf), etc., and suddenly that's pretty sick Manyshot burst damage

Still waiting to see a viable 20 Ranger build or similar that beats /6 Monk, sadly :/

[wax_on_wax_off]

Supposed to, yes, but can anyone confirm if it actually works?

If so, Reign and Tailwind could be quite nice to twist. Tailwind especially combined with Stand and Deliver = +16 dmg alone, not to mention any Ranger PL's or Elf's +2 dmg. Throw in clickies such as the +dmg you mentioned if half-elf, PL:SoS if available, +3d6 SA damage (if half-elf), etc., and suddenly that's pretty sick Manyshot burst damage

Still waiting to see a viable 20 Ranger build or similar that beats /6 Monk, sadly :/

I believe at one stage you weren't but I thought I saw in recent patch notes that whatever issue it was had been fixed, haven't seen any confirmation but no worries.

Tailwind is okay but it's attached to inspire courage so won't last very long. Perhaps if you twisted both and got 2 uses for each twist you could have enough but I'm not sure. Anthem would help of course but is expensive to slot end game (the cloak is about the only option I'd say).

[Glenalth]

I believe at one stage you weren't but I thought I saw in recent patch notes that whatever issue it was had been fixed, haven't seen any confirmation but no worries.

Tailwind is okay but it's attached to inspire courage so won't last very long. Perhaps if you twisted both and got 2 uses for each twist you could have enough but I'm not sure. Anthem would help of course but is expensive to slot end game (the cloak is about the only option I'd say).

Wasn't able to get any songs out of Anthem, but the description on the song regen specifically mentions that you have to have bard levels for it to work.

[Aerendil]

Wasn't able to get any songs out of Anthem, but the description on the song regen specifically mentions that you have to have bard levels for it to work.

Which won't combine with Monk levels, bummer :/

Very tempted to get that Tailwind, since I'm not seeing a lot of Bards picking it up, since there are many other goodies for them in Fatesinger to spend their AP on. But it seems problematic to pick it up without Bard levels, but if you get Bard levels you can't have Monk levels. I hate those catch 22 build scenerios :/

[wax_on_wax_off]

Which won't combine with Monk levels, bummer :/

Very tempted to get that Tailwind, since I'm not seeing a lot of Bards picking it up, since there are many other goodies for them in Fatesinger to spend their AP on. But it seems problematic to pick it up without Bard levels, but if you get Bard levels you can't have Monk levels. I hate those catch 22 build scenerios :/

Past Life: Bardic Dilettante is the answer to that question, 3 songs/day there for you. Just ah, need a bard PL.

[slarden]

Splashing isn't for HP but for DPS. For your last twist I'd go for Echoes of the Ancestor: Shiradi Champion (+1 dex, +10% attack speed) or Haste Boost III from Legendary Dreadnought.

I think the formula goes like this:
(.33+.66)*1.125=112.5% of base for pure elf AA
(.33*1.1*1.2+.396*2.25+.2)=152.7% of base for 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter AA

The pure elf build is at 74% of the DPS of the monk build. The pure elf has to make up for with higher base damage. Is that going to happen with +1 critical multiplier in earth stance III? Maybe close but nowhere near the 37% it has to add.

Mind you, at low levels of gear before EDs the pure elf is probably much closer but the more gear you add the bigger the difference becomes.

I have never used 10k stars enhancement but I believe it is 30 seconds with 30 second cool down. If so, the math would work like this using a ranger attack bonus of 100% over a 2 minute period (not trying to compare to swords here)

Pure ranger - AA
------------
20 second manyshot: 20 / 120 *4 * 1.125 (20 seconds/120 seconds * 400% for manyshot * 112.5% (for capstone)
100 second non-manyshot period: 100 /120 * 1.125

Attacks as a percentage of base ranger attacks: 168.75%

AA / 10k hybrid assuming 200% 10k attack speed
-------------
20 second manyshot: 20 /120 * 4 20 seconds/120 seconds * 400%
30 second 10k stars: 30/120 * 2 30 seconds/120 seconds * 200%
30 seconds non-10k/non-manyshot: 30/120
30 second 10k stars: 30/120 * 2
10 second non-10k/non-manyshot: 10/120

Attacks as a percentage of base ranger attacks: 200%

Damage percentage boost required by AA ranger 20 to make up for loss of attacks: 18.5%

Of course this all assumes an equal chance to hit targets and the 200% 10k stars attack speed.

The primary damage benefit an AA ranger would have over monk would be strength and additional favored enemies and favored enemy bonuses. That probably won't get you to 18.5%. So it does appear 10k archers would have a dps advantage over straight level 20 AA rangers.

[slarden]

It may be not the most popular build anymore for AA, but I like pure elf. I have 3+ past lives. At lvl 25, 659 HPs with ship buffs, 40 dex and 36 str. I twisted in primal scream (lvl 1 twist) which gives me over 40 str and 45 dex and over 700 hps for 5 mins. Then, add audience with the queeen for a potential boost there as well to hps. I have been over 1100 hps with all buffs.So don't think you HAVE to multiclass to have a reasonable amount of hps. Oh yeah, I have over 1000 sp too and hit myself with 90 or so healing per non-crit cure serious. That is if fast healing (lvl 1 twist) and healing spring have ticked and I need healing.Basically, with shiradi champion and twisting in fast healing, it is pretty ridiculous right now to be a ranger. Last choice will be a lvl 4 twist of either the deathblock armor one from the favored soul ED or the true sight one from the monk ED.

Like you I am on sarlona with 3 past ranger lives.

Primal scream looks like a good easy choice for twist. I didn't realize it provided a dex bonus also.

What sort of cha/diplomacy do you have to make audience with the queen work? I didn't even try to take it as a I have a base cha of 8 and no dip skill points. Based on the way it reads I thought bad things would happen to me if I tried to use it.

Thank you.

[barecm]

Like you I am on sarlona with 3 past ranger lives.

Primal scream looks like a good easy choice for twist. I didn't realize it provided a dex bonus also.

What sort of cha/diplomacy do you have to make audience with the queen work? I didn't even try to take it as a I have a base cha of 8 and no dip skill points. Based on the way it reads I thought bad things would happen to me if I tried to use it.

Thank you.

It doesn't provide a dex bonus, it is str and con. So +damage and +health. My diplo is not high as a base. I did build towards having umd on this guy to read heal scrolls, so my char is 20 with a +6 item. I add a diplo +15 item, I have 2 ranks into ranger skill boost (originally for boosting umd) and +6 cha skills on a greensteel item. So, I hit a GH clickie, put on my +15 diplo item, have my +6 cha skills item on, hit my clickie and I have like 46 diplo. I always crit success and get the top tier results. Not always +300 health, but all the results are positive.

[Shmuel]

Past Life: Bardic Dilettante is the answer to that question, 3 songs/day there for you. Just ah, need a bard PL.

I'm not so sure about this. My bard has that feat, mainly for the extra 3 songs. Those inspire courage songs however are on a different counter than the rest of my bard songs and only can be used for inspire courage. They do gain all the benefits of my other inspire courage though. I doubt you could use them for fatesinger abilities. I'll try to test it out later when I get on.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I have never used 10k stars enhancement but I believe it is 30 seconds with 30 second cool down. If so, the math would work like this using a ranger attack bonus of 100% over a 2 minute period (not trying to compare to swords here)

Pure ranger - AA
------------
20 second manyshot: 20 / 120 *4 * 1.125 (20 seconds/120 seconds * 400% for manyshot * 112.5% (for capstone)
100 second non-manyshot period: 100 /120 * 1.125

Attacks as a percentage of base ranger attacks: 168.75%

AA / 10k hybrid assuming 200% 10k attack speed
-------------
20 second manyshot: 20 /120 * 4 20 seconds/120 seconds * 400%
30 second 10k stars: 30/120 * 2 30 seconds/120 seconds * 200%
30 seconds non-10k/non-manyshot: 30/120
30 second 10k stars: 30/120 * 2
10 second non-10k/non-manyshot: 10/120

Attacks as a percentage of base ranger attacks: 200%

Damage percentage boost required by AA ranger 20 to make up for loss of attacks: 18.5%

Of course this all assumes an equal chance to hit targets and the 200% 10k stars attack speed.

The primary damage benefit an AA ranger would have over monk would be strength and additional favored enemies and favored enemy bonuses. That probably won't get you to 18.5%. So it does appear 10k archers would have a dps advantage over straight level 20 AA rangers.

Thanks for another way to approach it. I was working off a dev comment something along the lines of Manyshot being a third of an archers current (pre-10k stars) DPS. I'm also working of 225% arrows for 10k stars at 50 wisdom (which is reasonable at level 25, with U14 gear I'm expecting 52 in water).

Your approach also isn't account for haste boost, damage boost or delays from activating boosts/Manyshot (1.6 seconds/boost or 0.8 with quickdraw but multiple activations can be wrapped up in the same delay without extending it (Manyshot+damage boost+haste boost has the same opportunity cost as just Manyshot).

The real thing that gets me is that one of the best things about being an archer is being able to apply CC/debuff effects to multiple mobs simultaneously with IPS and 10k stars lets you do that so, so much better (up to 2.3x better, 50% of the time). So there's a massive utility advantage and the a considerable DPS advantage (10 to 30% depending on who's figures you look at). Why would any epic minded archer not have 10k stars?

[slarden]

It doesn't provide a dex bonus, it is str and con. So +damage and +health. My diplo is not high as a base. I did build towards having umd on this guy to read heal scrolls, so my char is 20 with a +6 item. I add a diplo +15 item, I have 2 ranks into ranger skill boost (originally for boosting umd) and +6 cha skills on a greensteel item. So, I hit a GH clickie, put on my +15 diplo item, have my +6 cha skills item on, hit my clickie and I have like 46 diplo. I always crit success and get the top tier results. Not always +300 health, but all the results are positive.

Excellent! Well I wear +6 cha skills gs item mainly for the sp and I can make epic shimmering pendant. With spider mask a +3 cha tome and gh that should get me high enough to not get bad effects. I think I took +1 dex for that tier just because I didn't want to roll the dice on my dip skill I was thinking I would need a 70 or something outrageous like that to avoid bad things.

[slarden]

Thanks for another way to approach it. I was working off a dev comment something along the lines of Manyshot being a third of an archers current (pre-10k stars) DPS. I'm also working of 225% arrows for 10k stars at 50 wisdom (which is reasonable at level 25, with U14 gear I'm expecting 52 in water).

Your approach also isn't account for haste boost, damage boost or delays from activating boosts/Manyshot (1.6 seconds/boost or 0.8 with quickdraw but multiple activations can be wrapped up in the same delay without extending it (Manyshot+damage boost+haste boost has the same opportunity cost as just Manyshot).

The real thing that gets me is that one of the best things about being an archer is being able to apply CC/debuff effects to multiple mobs simultaneously with IPS and 10k stars lets you do that so, so much better (up to 2.3x better, 50% of the time). So there's a massive utility advantage and the a considerable DPS advantage (10 to 30% depending on who's figures you look at). Why would any epic minded archer not have 10k stars?

Yeah my math is very rough for sure.

I definitely prefer straight 20 AA ranger vs Helves Angel. I felt that way prior to the update, but after the update helves angel became almost obsolete. I don't have any problem with someone playing 20AA ranger. But I am sufficiently convinced that your monkcher builds will result in better dps and am going to give it a try. I just need to spend a little time figuring out what to do and will post it on your thread so I am not hijacking this thread. Thank you for all the explanations.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Why would any epic minded archer not have 10k stars?

Whole heartedly agree. The only "issue/problem" is that even with Zen Archery you don't gain ki when using a bow. This causes a huge disconnect where either you need to factor in time to regain ki or be in a stance/use gear that allows ki generation while being hit.

[Aerendil]

Whole heartedly agree. The only "issue/problem" is that even with Zen Archery you don't gain ki when using a bow. This causes a huge disconnect where either you need to factor in time to regain ki or be in a stance/use gear that allows ki generation while being hit.

Whole-heartedly disagree
Not every archer wants to have to wear pyjamas, and use an ability that isn't even labelled as archery and in most of our minds is not WAI as a result (eg. it's 10k *STARS*. It should have never been allowed to affect archery), as a means of having viable archery dps (which indicates that archery with manyshot alone is clearly subpar - wish the devs would recognize this).

In the same sense that so many gamers refuse to be pigeonholed into using khopeshes only, because of their obvious dps advantage.

It goes against a lot of what many of us feel DDO is all about: choices.


PS - ki generation isn't a huge issue, really. If /12 Monk, water stance should be enough. If /6 Monk, then use a frozen tunic.
Post-20, you can get a spider-spun caparison to replace frozen if inclined. Also GMoF offers passive ki generation.

[kaobang]

Assuming you only use your bow with MS and/or 10ks, keep this in mind:

AA with 10ks can fire 67% of the time (20+30+30 / 120s)
AA without can fire 17% of the time (20/120s)

The above value are valid for boss fight > 120s.
But for general dungeon run they are higher (there is always break between rooms).
So at the end, one is not really better than the other in term of DPS they are just different.
It depends if you prefer mostly melee or mostly range.

[slarden]

Assuming you only use your bow with MS and/or 10ks, keep this in mind:

AA with 10ks can fire 67% of the time (20+30+30 / 120s)
AA without can fire 17% of the time (20/120s)

The above value are valid for boss fight > 120s.
But for general dungeon run they are higher (there is always break between rooms).
So at the end, one is not really better than the other in term of DPS they are just different.
It depends if you prefer mostly melee or mostly range.

if it's possible to keep up ki with passive abilities, I am not sure why a 10k archer would want to switch to melee except situationally. If your feats/enhancements/epic destines are all focused on range, I doubt you are gaining any dps by going to melee.