The ''best'' melee weapon - but why?

[C-Hound]

I've seen many times that high-crit-range weapons are preferred over high-base-damage weapons. For identical (x2) crit multipliers, crit range is deemed more important than base weapon-die.

So...

• Rapier/Scimitar (d6 = 3.5 average, 18-20) > longsword (d8 = 4.5 average, 19-20)

• Falchion (2d4 = 5 average, 18-20) > Great Sword (2d6 = 7 average, 19-20)

... etc., despite the lower base damage for non-crits, which runs contrary to the ''intuitive'' choice.

Since I'm sure this has been debated and discussed and supported in excruciating detail countless times before, could someone point me to a thread where I can follow the math and/or logic?

thx.

[Blank_Zero]

I've seen many times that high-crit-range weapons are preferred over high-base-damage weapons. For identical (x2) crit multipliers, crit range is deemed more important than base weapon-die.

So...

• Rapier/Scimitar (d6 = 3.5 average, 18-20) > longsword (d8 = 4.5 average, 19-20)

• Falchion (2d4 = 5 average, 18-20) > Great Sword (2d6 = 7 average, 19-20)

... etc., despite the lower base damage for non-crits, which runs contrary to the ''intuitive'' choice.

Since I'm sure this has been debated and discussed and supported in excruciating detail countless times before, could someone point me to a thread where I can follow the math and/or logic?

thx.

Improved Critical.

[gerardIII]

Improved Critical.

And On Crit effects.

[Solmage]

I've seen many times that high-crit-range weapons are preferred over high-base-damage weapons. For identical (x2) crit multipliers, crit range is deemed more important than base weapon-die.

So...

• Rapier/Scimitar (d6 = 3.5 average, 18-20) > longsword (d8 = 4.5 average, 19-20)

• Falchion (2d4 = 5 average, 18-20) > Great Sword (2d6 = 7 average, 19-20)

... etc., despite the lower base damage for non-crits, which runs contrary to the ''intuitive'' choice.

Since I'm sure this has been debated and discussed and supported in excruciating detail countless times before, could someone point me to a thread where I can follow the math and/or logic?

thx.

I'll give you a quick basic idea:

The average base damage difference between a longsword and a scimitar is 1.
Now, imagine you have as little as +20 damage, that crits 30% of the time with improved critical, for a total of 12 average damage, vs the longsword which crits 20% of the time for an 8 average damage.

The scimitar pulls ahead by 3 average damage. However, damage bonuses aren't +20, it's MUCH larger. So the difference gets larger and larger the more damage is behind the attack, and it's also the reason why the khopesh has the highest DPS of all single weapons. However, the more fortification the target has, the more the higher base damage catches up, but even so effects like holy burst and other on crit damage will still favour the weapon with the better crit profile. So even in the 100% fort case, they're even/about even, and much better in all other cases.

[yawumpus]

Multiplication vs. addition. It is really that simple.

Take a strength of 50 (not sure where that stands in end-game. I'm pretty sure that would be a weak end-game barbarian) for +20 damage (+30 if two handed). +5 for power attack (+10 for two handers). Add +5 enhancement (+4 is far easier to craft, I think +5 is 100 arcane). Add a bloodstone for +6 seeker (less popular nowadays, but expect at least some seeker). And yes, always include improved critical.

new and improved:
rapier (3.5+20+5+5)+(3.5+20+5+5+6)*(6/20)=45.35
longsword (4.5+20+5+5)+(4.5+20+5+5+6)*(4/20)=42.6
khopesh (4.5+20+5+5)+(4.5+20+5+5+6)*(8/20)=50.7

great sword (7+30+10+5)+(7+30+10+5+6)*(4/20)=63.6
falchion(5+30+10+5)+(5+30+10+5+6)*(6/20)=66.8
carnifex(6.5+30+10+2*)+(6.5+30+10+2+6)*(8/20)=70.3

Of course, by this point you need holy burst/greater bane/greensteel/alchemical what not, and carnifex becomes less important. Also remember that [greater] bane weapons add to the base damage as well as add extra damage dice. It should be clear that a melee with power attack, improved critical, and enormous strength is going to get huge damage far outside the base damage listed, and crits simply multiply that. And as mentioned above, things like holy burst pile on the effects of criticals.

Characters in the single digit levels can typically ignore this (unless they have power attack and a handy carnifex (possibly a less rare drop with U13)). At that point a heavy mace is a longsword is a khopesh.

* carnifex is a +2 great axe that has a 17-20x3 crit profile without improved crit:slashing

[Habreno]

Multiplication vs. addition. It is really that simple.

Take a strength of 50 (not sure where that stands in end-game. I'm pretty sure that would be a weak end-game barbarian) for +20 damage (+30 if two handed). +5 for power attack (+10 for two handers). Add +5 enhancement (+4 is far easier to craft, I think +5 is 100 arcane). Add a bloodstone for +6 seeker (less popular nowadays, but expect at least some seeker). And yes, always include improved critical.

new and improved:
rapier (3.5+20+5+5)+(3.5+20+5+5+6)*(6/20)=45.35
longsword (4.5+20+5+5)+(4.5+20+5+5+6)*(4/20)=42.6
khopesh (4.5+20+5+5)+(4.5+20+5+5+6)*(8/20)=50.7

great sword (7+30+10+5)+(7+30+10+5+6)*(4/20)=63.6
falchion(5+30+10+5)+(5+30+10+5+6)*(6/20)=66.8
carnifex(6.5+30+10+2*)+(6.5+30+10+2+6)*(8/20)=70.3

Of course, by this point you need holy burst/greater bane/greensteel/alchemical what not, and carnifex becomes less important. Also remember that [greater] bane weapons add to the base damage as well as add extra damage dice. It should be clear that a melee with power attack, improved critical, and enormous strength is going to get huge damage far outside the base damage listed, and crits simply multiply that. And as mentioned above, things like holy burst pile on the effects of criticals.

Characters in the single digit levels can typically ignore this (unless they have power attack and a handy carnifex (possibly a less rare drop with U13)). At that point a heavy mace is a longsword is a khopesh.

* carnifex is a +2 great axe that has a 17-20x3 crit profile without improved crit:slashing

This math is only slightly off. However, the premise behind it still lies true. The non-crit values need to be multiplied by their appropriate percentage (either .75 or .65) since that's the amount of non crits.

[belaf52]

* carnifex is a +2 great axe that has a 17-20x3 crit profile without improved crit:slashing

I don't think Carnifex's keen ability stacks with improved critical...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex

[sirgog]

I don't think Carnifex's keen ability stacks with improved critical...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex

Its 'Keen' ability does not.

Its intrinsically higher crit range does. Carnifex crits on a 17 whether you have IC: Slashing or not.

Basically the reason crit profile is so important is that Holy and other similar effects don't scale up with your gear. Crit profiles do.

[C-Dog]

So, in short, the additives to damage in DDO are so much bigger than (most)(of my) D&D combats that the multiplier knocks it out of the park. And the crit range is the path to get there.

I knew they were "more", just not that much more. Thanks!

[FrozenNova]

You can't spell DDO without modifier inflation.

[yawumpus]

This math is only slightly off. However, the premise behind it still lies true. The non-crit values need to be multiplied by their appropriate percentage (either .75 or .65) since that's the amount of non crits.

The error is more subtle than that, since I didn't include the base damage on the crits.
The .75 and .65 will include the "miss on a one"
If you include seeker damage (like I did) you have to include all the crit damage in the crits and treat base damage separately.

I don't think those errors will add up to a full point, and they answer the OPs question.

I don't think Carnifex's keen ability stacks with improved critical...

http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex

It doesn't. It simply has that profile with or without improved critical (look at the listed crit profile on it and a keen great axe). It is largely listed to show why low-mid level (and less geared upper level) characters like it so much.