why we can't be evil?

[Ganolyn]

i know what u mean but it's also an rpg choice, it's not right to have all alignements but not evil ones, it's not fair

Life's not fair. There's your evil for you. Besides, good and evil are subjective terms. The monsters you hunt down and kill think you are a terrible person for doing it or do you think that they are thankful that you took the time to break into their house, murder them and steal their stuff just to set them straight?

Remember, "Kobold still hate you!".

[herzkos]

i know that this post is been already opened by someone else, i've searched a little but i didn't find any post so i'm opening a new one (even if i'm sure there is already another one)

So back on topic...

No evil, why?
An evil hero can't do what? seek for lust? personal gain? seeking power? immortality? (oh sorry this was removed from the pnp game after first edition of D&D)

it seems to me that it should be easyer (in rpg terms) to see an evil hero collaborating with non evil characters than a True neutral hero adventuring at all.

Much more work for developers you say? i don't think so. but it could be...

Anyway i think this should be a nice improvement to our play style ( why our pale masters have to be good or neutral? what about evil alligned paladins? guess what? they exist, and they are not avengers too! )

suggest you come up with a more factual / coherent reason why evil alignments should be allowed in the game.
after reading the eula/code of conduct (which i'm sure you have).

[Ungermax]

A few thoughts.

Evil would be cool to have because Turbine could implent PvP content that is actually worth doing. Can you imagine a quest chain, where in the last part after completion, an optional where you step into another room, talk to some NPC who says something like "Entertain me. Last man standing gets... something." If you accept (which would have to be approvedvoted for by at least three party members no matter how many there are) all the doors lock, and you enter PvP mode, where the last man standing gets a second end chest and a nice xp bump.

Plus, you KNOW they should put Blackguard in. You KNOW it. I mean I could handle the idea of it being a neutral-restricted FvS PrE line, but really. If you could make a Paladin and turn him into a blackguard it'd be way cool.

On the other hand, I think evil would be almost pointless if there werent a chunk of new quests in which you could make good or evil choices to change the outcome of the quest/chain, and that would hamper Paladins. I mean, if we're going to roleplay in-story at all, then the downfalls should be the same, and a Paladin making evil choices over good ones willingly should make him lose his Paladinhood, and you also know there would be incedents where people did this by mistake... unintentionally, permanently ruining that character (unless you could talk to someone who could restore it, and have it on a raid-like timer so you cant exploit the crud out of it).

Second downfall, and possibly the more valid in-game one, is that an evil character could wear multiple Shroud items without the need of grind-fodder Essences of Cleansing, and I think that could quite easily irritate a lot of players. Either that or you would find a heck of a lot of people buying Alignment changes (ch-ching).

Anyway, sorry if any of thats been said, I didnt read all of the thread...

[brightfang]

A few thoughts.

Second downfall, and possibly the more valid in-game one, is that an evil character could wear multiple Shroud items without the need of grind-fodder Essences of Cleansing, and I think that could quite easily irritate a lot of players. Either that or you would find a heck of a lot of people buying Alignment changes (ch-ching).

Greensteel items feed on the pain of all, good or evil. Only Devils are immune.

[Dawnsfire]

Eladrin answered this one back in 2008.

"The first six alignments, lawful good through chaotic neutral, are the standard alignments for player characters. The three evil alignments are for monsters and villains." - PHB, p104.

While not every character strives to be a hero, the majority of the quests and storylines in DDO make the assumption that the parties involved are not actively villainous in nature. (There are some exceptions, such as Purging the Heretics, but even Running With the Devils involves an unfortunate situation forced upon the party through duplicity.)

Many do not like it but I like the simplicity of it

[Niv-mizzet]

Lots of people misunderstand the good-evil axis. It's more selflessness and selfishness than anything else.

Two people can do the same thing and have very different intentions.

A paladin can charge into the Stormreaver's sanctum to save the world.

An evil character can charge into the same place, well, because for one, NOT saving the world means he dies too. Also the Stormreaver surely has many valuables that will be wanting a new owner, AND if he's the kind of character who is interested in fame, "I defeated the Stormreaver" is pretty far up there.

Evil alignment doesn't mean you're stupid-evil and do evil things with no regard for how its going to turn around and affect you. Lack of planning/thinking of consequences is more of a chaotic attribute, and can apply just as much to chaotic good characters. Also, even in chaotic alignment, unless you're some kind of ridiculous super-chaos man way off the right side of the alignment chart, you still give a **** what happens to you. (Heavy mental problems are an exception here.)

As I always tell people in my PnP group, its not WHAT you do, but WHY you're doing it that determines your alignment. Having an "E" in your alignment doesn't make the monsters your best friends, and doesn't make you automatically want to destroy the world. Heck its actually more likely that evil characters will become adventurers. Its quite a profitable venture in the fantasy worlds, and a great way to become famous. I think the typical "do-gooder adventuring party" usually depicted is actually the exception.

If more people understood this concept, we probably could play evil in DDO.

Buuuut I'm pretty sure they don't, and if we had evil we'd just have people asking "wait, im evil, why cant i just help the reaver blow up the world?"

[Bradik_Losdar]

Griefing.

Pure and simple.

"But I died to take away your XP bonus because I'm evil. I'm not helping the party in combat because I'm evil. I recalled to strip more XP from completion because I'm evil. I ran through the dungeon and put Dungeon Alert on red while trailing all the bad guys back to the party because I'm evil..." Etc. etc.

Evil = an excuse to be a jackhat in the game. We have enough of those already without giving people an in-game excuse to grief others.

[Psiandron]

Lots of people misunderstand the good-evil axis. It's more selflessness and selfishness than anything else.

Two people can do the same thing and have very different intentions.

A paladin can charge into the Stormreaver's sanctum to save the world.

An evil character can charge into the same place, well, because for one, NOT saving the world means he dies too. Also the Stormreaver surely has many valuables that will be wanting a new owner, AND if he's the kind of character who is interested in fame, "I defeated the Stormreaver" is pretty far up there.

Evil alignment doesn't mean you're stupid-evil and do evil things with no regard for how its going to turn around and affect you. Lack of planning/thinking of consequences is more of a chaotic attribute, and can apply just as much to chaotic good characters. Also, even in chaotic alignment, unless you're some kind of ridiculous super-chaos man way off the right side of the alignment chart, you still give a **** what happens to you. (Heavy mental problems are an exception here.)

As I always tell people in my PnP group, its not WHAT you do, but WHY you're doing it that determines your alignment. Having an "E" in your alignment doesn't make the monsters your best friends, and doesn't make you automatically want to destroy the world. Heck its actually more likely that evil characters will become adventurers. Its quite a profitable venture in the fantasy worlds, and a great way to become famous. I think the typical "do-gooder adventuring party" usually depicted is actually the exception.

If more people understood this concept, we probably could play evil in DDO.

Buuuut I'm pretty sure they don't, and if we had evil we'd just have people asking "wait, im evil, why cant i just help the reaver blow up the world?"

Well said, +1

Also, as someone else stated earlier, good and evil are relative. Many, maybe even most, people who commit 'evil' acts aren't doing so out of some weird 'destroy the world' evil desire. They percieve, rightly or wrongly, that what they are doing is for someone's good. Those who are evil, in a more objective sense, are those who do what they do for their own benefit.

[Zyerz]

Evil and hero are opposites lol.

As for that, we'd have to wait and see how it would play out. We have chaotic toons now, so maybe in some future.

[Uska]

i know what u mean but it's also an rpg choice, it's not right to have all alignements but not evil ones, it's not fair

yes it is the game is about being a hero and EGG never really like players being evil and there is no real reason to ever be anyways and its never gonna happen here at least they have said so once or twice.

that being said you can pretend your evil if you wish as other than some item and class issues alignment doesnt mean anything here


also if they allowed evil it would be a lot more work for them to develop content for both good and evil players.

[Uska]

Au contraire. Blasphemy of Horoth did not have any effect on characters any more with evil alignments.

Clerics had to choose healing then selectively.

For me this is just a sign for the devs idea of hero = good guy but this is somehow falsified now since the Ravager PrE will come and the all known quest Purge The Heretics.

I'd so loved to have evil alinged PrE like Blackguard, with the expansion coming up, even Thayan Knights and Red Wizards were an awesome option. Master of Shrouds PrE for evil Clerics, summoning incorporeal Undead and stuff.

umm thayan knights and red wizards are native to FR we will be invaders of FR basicly so shouldnt be an opition even if the allowed evil and I dont see anything but negatives if they did

[Uska]

Everyone takes Paladin only for the goodies you gain after converting to Blackguard ;P. Everybody knows that^^.

But, considering Unearthed Arcana book tehre are more options. Paladin of Tyranny and Slaughter are the evil brothers, even Paladin of Freedom for chaotic alignments.

Most gms I have seen over that last 30+ years didnt allow players to be evil and those that did well I usually didnt stick around as I really didnt enjoy playing with those players who did want to be evil

[Uska]

Everyone takes Paladin only for the goodies you gain after converting to Blackguard ;P. Everybody knows that^^.

But, considering Unearthed Arcana book tehre are more options. Paladin of Tyranny and Slaughter are the evil brothers, even Paladin of Freedom for chaotic alignments.

Most gms I have seen over that last 30+ years didnt allow players to be evil and those that did well I usually didnt stick around as I really didnt enjoy playing with those players who did want to be evil

and that book was optional and not even close to being used commonly

[Mad_ScientistsNH]

1. This is an heroic game. Why would an evil person do everything that we do to help save Stormreach/Eberron?

To keep it all for himself obviously! I mean, an evil character can fight other evil characters to prevent them from interfering with plans. Stormreach is going to be a lot harder to control if the Devils take it over, so unless you're Chaotic Stupid (aka Morrigan from Dragon Age), you're going to want to stop that from happening.

And more importantly:
2. What difference would it make? Alignment has zero affect on this game other than forcing you to require UMD checks for certain gear.

Touche. It still doesn't matter.

[dodger72]

Read more: Explanation of Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) Alignments | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_8527033_exp...#ixzz1o6WSbapO

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a table-top fantasy role-playing game created in 1974 that ushered in the modern era of the role-playing game industry. As a player creates his or her character, this character must be given an alignment that dictates their moral and ethical worldview. A character's alignment is important insofar as it dictates the party structure; only compatible characters should be in the same party. The alignments are lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil and chaotic evil.

Lawful Good

• Lawful good characters are located on the extreme "good" end of the alignment spectrum. Also known as the "saintly" alignment, a lawful good character has a strong sense of duty and acts with compassion and only for the good of others. Lawful good characters can become conflicted when faced with a choice between breaking religious laws or the law of the land. Lawful good nations act only for the well-being of its citizenry. Characters of the lawful good alignment include many dwarves, righteous knights and paladins.
  
  

Neutral Good

• Neutral good characters are typically altruistic and act with irreverence for any laws and traditions that may interfere with that altruism. Neutral good characters are willing to cooperate with anyone as long as the actions result in good. Characters of this alignment are not conflicted when presented with a situation where doing the right thing requires breaking the law. Neutral good is also known as the "benefactor" alignment.
  
  
  
  
  

Chaotic Good

• Chaotic good characters are rebels and cynics who align themselves with good. This alignment carries with it a distaste for bureaucracy, which gets in the way of larger social goals. Chaotic good characters are extreme Libertarians in that they have a strong belief in the right for personal freedom. They are improvisational characters, ignoring most attempts at organization. And though they intend to do the right thing, they usually act outside of mainstream society. Elves are generally chaotic good characters.
  
  

Lawful Neutral

• Lawful Neutral characters are the judges who believe in strong personal codes of honor and law. They place high value on tradition. Lawful Neutral characters follow their personal code above all else, including the ideals of good and evil. Their code is based in their belief system, not in their sense of moral good or evil. Lawful Neutral characters can sometimes appear unmerciful due to their strict adherence to their law. Soldiers, enforcers and monks are often of the lawful neutral alignment.
  
  

Neutral

• Neutral alignment characters are the epitome of "undecided." Characters of this alignment do not have strong ties to any moral alignment and generally tend to appear to lack any moral judgment. Many neutral characters seek to create a balance between good and evil alignments, which they see only as prejudices. A typical character of this alignment is the druid who are sometimes required to be neutral by D&D rules. Druids have a strict dedication to balance.
  
  

Chaotic Neutral

• Chaotic Neutral characters are considered to be "free spirits" and are staunch individualists. Rules have no place in the lives of these characters who act strictly on their own ideas of right and wrong. Chaotic neutral characters place their own freedom above all else and will always act to preserve their freedom, regardless of whether the act is perceived as good or evil. Characters of the chaotic neutral alignment often act selfishly to achieve their own goals.
  
  

Lawful Evil

• Lawful evil characters can be relied upon to keep their word and follow orders, however they have no care for the rights of others and will break the rules for their own good. They see systems of laws as exploitable and often take advantage of law abiding characters to reach their personal goals. Lawful evil characters can become conflicted when a situation arises where they must choose between obeying an order or acting evil. Though this dilemma is generally a concern over whether they will get caught performing an evil.
  
  

Neutral Evil

• Neutral Evil characters are defined by their selfishness and are viewed as turncoats. They are only out for their own personal gain and will harm anyone who stands in their way. However, they do not commit evil simply for the sake of evil. Neutral evil characters only act if there is a benefit for themselves. Characters of the neutral evil alignment include assassins who do not needlessly kill and mercenaries who easily switch loyalties based on a better offer.
  
  

Chaotic Evil

• Also known as the "demonic" alignment, chaotic evil characters have no respect for law and order or the rights and lives of other people. They are selfish and mean-spirited and will stop at nothing to achieve their personal goals. Chaotic evil characters see discipline as a weakness and revel in the suffering of other people. Characters of this alignment follow rules only out of fear of personal harm.
  
  

Good does as good does for the sake of good. Evil...they're in it for the cash and to survive. Let me ask this: If there was a chain that just got you insanely high xp, no end reward, why would you do it? How about a chain with crappy xp, but the end reward is just nuts? Why would you do it? Because it's just part of the game. Not for good, more for evil. You want your toons to be more powerful. Period. No one plays this game to be a gimped out toon. We all want our toons be be bad-a**. No more...no less. When you see "selective" in the LFM's, those folks want to have high-end toons, not the new players. Good....or evil?

Bearing that in mind....regardless of alignment, no paladin would ever be in party with a necromancer. Ever. Yet....how often are you in a group or raid with both of these types of characters? Lich-form? Really? You have a Lich in the party with Lawful Good alignments....huh....but you cannot play evil.

In closing....about the only real difference for alignments.....nothing. It depends on the player.

[Ungood]

You have a Lich in the party with Lawful Good alignments....huh....but you cannot play evil.

That is because that "Lich" as you call it, is not undead, it is a Pale Master, a Arcane who has chosen to study the necromantic arts but not let them corrupt them into believing they are undead.

What many players here fail to realize is that Evil is not Good from some other perspective. Evil is an absolute in Dungeon and Dragon, a fixed alignment. not dependent upon circumstance or situation.

Evil is not about some warped idealism from reading too many comic books and thinking that Evil people really are good at the core, they are not. They are evil, they laugh at your pain, they mock your suffering, they are not just in for the wealth, they are in to subjugate and win.

You want people to risk their life saving the world against something like the Stormreaver, better call a hero, Evil People do not risk their life to save the world, because even if they loose they still tried, you need good suckers for that fools errand, and evil people are not mercenaries either, that is what neutral people.

Evil as an Alignment is not about being a jerk, like most people might think, it is not about being cool, and it is not about being the good guy in disguise.

An evil player is the type of player in Purging the Heretics, goes in and rapes the survivors, tortures them slowly, and watches them bleed begging their god to save them, for the sheer joy of hearing them grovel. The fact that the evil player could do such an act while under the sanction of the Silver Flame would just feed their sick power trip and if they got caught, they could blame the inquisitor for anything they did.

An evil player, is not about pretending to be good or playing heroics to fit in.

An evil player is first self serving and then sadistic. Sure, IF they have a high enough int and cha scores they hide their true intents from the masses, but even then, they are not going to play hero at the risk of their own life or limb. get some other fool to do that, in fact they would extort the "quest giver" and then take advantage of the Hero to get one of those goodly fools to do their bidding, like, oh... the quest givers in the Sands.

Evil is not an available alignment. Because in DDO is has only one place, and that is the alignment of the named idiot in the quest that just died at a hero's hand.

[Uska]

Evil and hero are opposites lol.

As for that, we'd have to wait and see how it would play out. We have chaotic toons now, so maybe in some future.

They already said its not gonna happen

[azrael4h]

Evil is not about some warped idealism from reading too many comic books and thinking that Evil people really are good at the core, they are not. They are evil, they laugh at your pain, they mock your suffering, they are not just in for the wealth, they are in to subjugate and win.

You want people to risk their life saving the world against something like the Stormreaver, better call a hero, Evil People do not risk their life to save the world, because even if they loose they still tried, you need good suckers for that fools errand, and evil people are not mercenaries either, that is what neutral people.

Going by comic book villains that you deride here, I bring you Dr Victor vonDoom. He is most unquestionably evil, having such lovely heroic acts as slaying the woman he loved, skinning her, and using that skin as body armor all in order to increase his magical power. He is the archetypical evil-doer, willing and able to do anything to achieve his goals. He might not laugh at your pain, but that's because he's too busy analyzing it to see what advantage he can gain from it.

Yet this same Dr Doom has fought to save the world on multiple occasions alongside the good heroes. Onslaught, Thanos, even fighting against Mephisto. He didn't fight under some secretive noblility or hidden good core; this is a man who would rip off a baby's head and eat it like an apple in front of it's mother if he thought it would give him any fraction of power (or prove him smarter than Reed Richards). He did it because you can't rule a dead world. Especially when you too are dead or enslaved.

So yes, a Stupid Evil like you expect all evil characters to be (say the Joker or something from Final Fantasy) might not fight to save the world... but that doesn't mean a lawful, neutral, or chaotic evil character won't. If it fits within their self-interest, which stopping the world from complete destruction usually fits in there somewhere. That don't mean that said character won't attempt to take advantage of the situation if the opportunity presents itself; Doom did try to steal the Infinity Gauntlet for example. But all but the most insane or worst written villains have stopped and joined with their usual foes at times to save their worlds in the comic book series. I think even the Joker has helped Batman, a time or two, even if it was just to make sure he's the one who gets to kill the Bat.

I'm not for Evil alignments in DDO, because I see it as unnecessary, and likely to lead to griefing by trolls who will try to justify it as "Roleplaying". We already have enough of that as it is. Mechanically, we already have an incentive to not be good in order to reduce incoming damage in certain quests.

Now I am for more role-playing options in quests, allowing for different ways to play them out. Rather than the current go in, kill everything, and loot the corpses design that is 99% of DDO's quests.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Yet this same Dr Doom has fought to save the world on multiple occasions alongside the good heroes.

You can't destroy the world. It's where I keep all my stuff!

[azrael4h]

You can't destroy the world. It's where I keep all my stuff!

That's it. I'm blowing up everything except New Jersey.