Talk me out of evasion...

[CrankVulcan]

My main is currently on a PM wizard life. I Just got finished with two 18/2 FvS/Monk lives and I'm pretty used to evasion. With Insightful reflexes I can hit 40+ reflex. I use the 2 monk feats for double toughness...

Now that I've spent a bit of time running epics(first time on a wizard), I realize the splash hurts quite a bit. I assumed the 2 spell pen I lose from caster level would be irrelevant because of my past lives. I now realize that every point of spell pen helps a lot.

I plan to TR into wizard again before the expansion and I can't decide whether to splash or not.

I would love to hear ANY arguments for or against splashing monk into a WF(yes warforged) pale master.

Thanks in advance...

P.S. I solo a lot of content including raids so keep that in mind.

[LordRavnos]

Capstone, half damage on a 40 reflex is still enough to prevent death most of the time, most traps can be either circumvented or skipped entirely, if you got cash to burn rogue hirelings, capstone, like you said more spell pen never hurts, a few more high level spell slots can be useful, more SP of course, capstone.

Honestly I love evasion but to me on my wizard I just prefer pure. Sure I lose access to evasion and DD and OL by not taking 2 rogue, or 2 feats by skipping monk, but I have yet to find a time where I go " **** I really wish I had evasion right now"

[CrankVulcan]

I have yet to find a time where I go " **** I really wish I had evasion right now"

I'm almost finished crafting my Fire/Ice/Electric absorption GS weapons... I think that when I get those done, I'll be a little bit more comfortable.

Places like elite Enter the Kobold(end fight) and elite Monastery make me cringe even still...

[Cardtrick]

I have an 18/2 pale master/monk. I went elf specifically for the +4 to spell pen from Elven Arcanum (and also took the normal spell pen enhancement line and both feats), so I'm actually fine on that front.

Nevertheless, I still regret the splash and never plan to do it again. At cap, the DC loss from the capstone is especially painful on a first-caster-life character. Also painful is getting only 4 L8 spell slots and 3 L9 slots -- I would love to have Wail, Energy Drain, Mass Hold Monster, Meteor Swarm, and Power Word Kill all loaded, but instead I have to choose just 3 depending on content.

Annoying though the 18 wizard levels are at cap, the delayed progression was even worse while leveling. Getting important spells 1-2 levels later was far more painful than I would have expected and really slowed down the leveling process.

All in all, evasion is great, but it's far outweighed by the disadvantages of splashing on pretty much any non-cleric caster.

[Isharah]

Definitely pure wiz if you plan to stay long at level 20, the more considering the fact that you are warforged (very quick heals and good HP pool).

While leveling up though, have you considered initially building towards 18wiz/2rog for trap skills and evasion? I suppose you already have gear gathered from your previous lives so the sorc spell progression and loss of extra toughness feats would be worth the acquisition of trap skills for that guaranteed exp bonus.

[Bacab]

If you want evasion...I prefer the 2 ROG route so you can trapmonkey. Helps with XPingat times. Pure is more powerful though.

Is this "endgame" or a temporary thing?

[tinyelvis]

If you want evasion, then setup your toon for evasion. Here are some things you miss as an 18th level wizard so you can make that informed decision.

1. 2 off of your spell pen. This is pretty big if your spell pen is not at least in the mid 30s. Especially with the new content.

2. 2 die of damage less. You already are a wizard and suffer a bit on damage output compared to other casters.

3. You lose your arcane bonus feat. Will probably lead to one less spell focus.

4. Capstone. On its own this is probably enough reason to go pure wizard. Pretty much all of your offensive spells cost more and you lose 2 INTELLIGENCE!!

5. You lose 3 of your high level spells

6. People like me will not select you as a party member for any position where a top knotch caster is needed unless I personally know you and your capability.

7. Reflex damage events are survivable with a typical save. So with evasion, you don't really gain that much more capability.

8. If you take your two non wiz levels early, you will actually make things rougher on you while leveling.

[deahamlet]

Annoying though the 18 wizard levels are at cap, the delayed progression was even worse while leveling. Getting important spells 1-2 levels later was far more painful than I would have expected and really slowed down the leveling process.

All in all, evasion is great, but it's far outweighed by the disadvantages of splashing on pretty much any non-cleric caster.

I found the same thing about leveling. I LR-ed at level 11 or so cause I couldn't take it anymore. Way happier since.

[MRMechMan]

If you want evasion, then setup your toon for evasion. Here are some things you miss as an 18th level wizard so you can make that informed decision.

1. 2 off of your spell pen. This is pretty big if your spell pen is not at least in the mid 30s. Especially with the new content.

2. 2 die of damage less. You already are a wizard and suffer a bit on damage output compared to other casters.

3. You lose your arcane bonus feat. Will probably lead to one less spell focus.

4. Capstone. On its own this is probably enough reason to go pure wizard. Pretty much all of your offensive spells cost more and you lose 2 INTELLIGENCE!!

5. You lose 3 of your high level spells

6. People like me will not select you as a party member for any position where a top knotch caster is needed unless I personally know you and your capability.

7. Reflex damage events are survivable with a typical save. So with evasion, you don't really gain that much more capability.

8. If you take your two non wiz levels early, you will actually make things rougher on you while leveling.

Absolutely agreed. I'd rather have the spell slots, sp, spell damage, spell pen and spell DCs any day of the week.

With skill and gear, that is all the damage mitigation you need.


Although, once you get acidrain/fw any quest is instantly trivialized as a caster. The only really, really important things it pushes back are reconstruct (but are PM), circle of death and wail (the big one, wail at 17 and 18 is > than evasion if TRing at 20.)

I would still pick up insightful reflexes. +15-20 (or more!) to the most (only) important save is huge. From ONE feat . It can push you from only succeeding on a 20 to only failing on a 1. You might still take 1/2 damage, but most of the time will live instead of dying. Webs and cometfalls etc (I'm assuming the underdark will be...webby) are much different with a +35reflex than a +15.

[CrankVulcan]

I suppose you already have gear gathered from your previous lives

Yeah, gear really isn't the problem...Only thing I could use would be a better spell pen item...

I currently run around with 42 int with low 40s DC for necro....

you are warforged (very quick heals and good HP pool).

I'm a pale master so this doesn't apply...

[MRMechMan]

Yeah, gear really isn't the problem...Only thing I could use would be a better spell pen item...

I currently run around with 42 int with low 40s DC for necro....

You want as much spell pen as possible. If it isn't over 30, your spells will bounce enough to make the 2 splash start to smell.

My first 2 lives on my main were 18/2rog (no spell pen feats/enhancements, just...+18 spell pen) and 17/2monk/1rog (yea, I got weird with it...again no spell pen feats or enhancements so +19 spell pen , but did have +40 reflex and 40 DC mass hold...). 3rd wizard life was pure wf palemaster and it performed much better. Survivability actually went up...could just kill things at will because of better DCs and pen.

The low 40s necro is where every point matters. 42 to 44 is a few items, maybe a tome...and the difference between 42 and 44 is incredibly visible. So the capstone really matters.

[Simplesimon1979]

I'm almost finished crafting my Fire/Ice/Electric absorption GS weapons... I think that when I get those done, I'll be a little bit more comfortable.

Places like elite Enter the Kobold(end fight) and elite Monastery make me cringe even still...

Fireshield works good in there too. That's 50% right off the top.

[CrankVulcan]

Fireshield works good in there too. That's 50% right off the top.

For sure...I can easily survive Epic Velah breath with my current gear...I am more worried about tanking situations like hard/elite Sully(Tod/VoD) or Epic Wiz King... Can't think of where I could slot an Electric absorb item...

[Such755]

Why monk and not rogue? For those toughness?
Wouldn't you prefer to be more useful with trap skills, good enough for epics?
My human Pale master reached 550HP without lots of efforts, starting with 16 con. I assume you can take that 550 hp and add 60 more just with WF con.

[Matuse]

If you get evasion on your wizard, I will hunt you down IRL and kill your family and pets, and leave you at the bottom of a well to slowly drown as you run out of energy to tread the water.


Did that talk you out of it?

[voodoogroves]

I would love to hear ANY arguments for or against splashing monk into a WF(yes warforged) pale master.

Chicks dig scars, even on WF PMs. Evasion is for wusses.

[cforce]

Monk splash is great for leveling -- I LR'ed out of my Monk levels shortly after I hit 20, though. Capstone + Spell Pen trumps the monk levels if you plan to stay at 20.

[Sircowdog]

8. If you take your two non wiz levels early, you will actually make things rougher on you while leveling.

I have to dispute this, unless you were talking about the sub-10 level where evasion doesn't matter anyway. Even if you do take your 2 rogue/monk levels before 10, it allows just about as much zerging as getting firewall a bit earlier, since with insightful reflexes you can just about completely ignore the existence of traps.

[Jaid314]

I have to dispute this, unless you were talking about the sub-10 level where evasion doesn't matter anyway. Even if you do take your 2 rogue/monk levels before 10, it allows just about as much zerging as getting firewall a bit earlier, since with insightful reflexes you can just about completely ignore the existence of traps.

no, he's right.

there is a huge difference between getting finger of death, circle of death, and even stuff like ball lightning, delayed blast fireball, dancing sphere, and various others, 2 levels later. 1 level later is a little bit painful, but bearable. two levels later is absolutely infuriating. having 3 levels with wail of the banshee (those three levels generally being the *slowest* three levels to get through) is so much of an improvement it's hard to describe.

[Sircowdog]

Right, but you've got to balance that against all the levels in-between and after where you just zerg through traps and every time an enemy throws AoE. Maybe you do that anyway with resist spells and just heal after making a save? Seems like a choice of playstyle rather than an absolute "This way is easier." But I see your point.

My personal view is that evasion saves either SP, scrolls, or wands used for healing. I'm kind of a frugal player tho, who mostly solo zergs. But for epic content, yeah, I can see the pure wiz and a few more points of DC or spell pen making a difference. YMMV.