Multiclassed cleric for second life?

[Micki]

Hello everyone. I am a long way off from tr:ing my cleric, but I'd like to start planning for it - what gear to collect etc. And to do this, I need to know what I will be doing for the second life. First life: pure cleric, for the second life I'm considering multiclassing. Atm. my cleric is an offensive caster with some melee ability (healer too of course). For the second life I'd like to do 18 levels of cleric and 2 levels of something else (18 levels of cleric to not affect spells or sp). I would also like to be mostly offensive caster. I'd like to multiclass to get better survivability, and was maybe thinking monk? I love evasion, but would I want to give up using heavy armor for it? I love my offensive caster cleric, but her problems are that she is slow (low dex) and she can't take hits (low ac). And since since I mostly mass heal, and often get aggro, being slow and not good at getting hit - can be a bit of a problem.

Advice please?

[Olath_Senger]

Monk is definitely your best bet. Chances are you won't be an AC build, so heavy armor won't do much for you and Evasion would be much better provided you can get a decent reflex save. Water stance bumps up your WIS, granting additional DC to your offensive spells. I'm not sure if the DC will be higher than a pure cleric, though.

[jsaving]

Hello everyone. I am a long way off from tr:ing my cleric, but I'd like to start planning for it - what gear to collect etc. And to do this, I need to know what I will be doing for the second life. First life: pure cleric, for the second life I'm considering multiclassing. Atm. my cleric is an offensive caster with some melee ability (healer too of course). For the second life I'd like to do 18 levels of cleric and 2 levels of something else (18 levels of cleric to not affect spells or sp). I would also like to be mostly offensive caster. I'd like to multiclass to get better survivability, and was maybe thinking monk? I love evasion, but would I want to give up using heavy armor for it? I love my offensive caster cleric, but her problems are that she is slow (low dex) and she can't take hits (low ac). And since since I mostly mass heal, and often get aggro, being slow and not good at getting hit - can be a bit of a problem.

Advice please?

Unfortunately, heavy armor does little to nothing for most cleric builds except slow you down with large armor check penalties. Pencil-and-paper D&D tries to let AC matter on normal characters even at high levels, but in DDO, monsters receive such high attack bonuses by mid-levels that they'll typically only miss you on a 1 regardless of the armor you're wearing. So I don't think heavy armor is going to do much for your survivability, at least not unless you want to totally rethink your build and go the defender route.

Splashing monk, on the other hand, can do quite a bit for survivability. Evasion will effectively mitigate damage on normal and hard difficulty levels even without a decent DEX. Stunning fist with a super-high wisdom will improve your melee ability even though you might think going with handwraps would be a downgrade. Two free feats can either give you some added melee punch (if you'll forgive the pun) or can help you make space for focus/pen feats you might otherwise have struggled to fit into your build. Water stance will give you +1 DC over other clerics, even if they stayed pure and therefore have a higher caster level. And the wisdom AC bonus will ensure you have roughly the same AC you'd have enjoyed with heavy armor, if that's important to you, without the annoyance of jump and balance penalties.

For even more utility, you can consider a 17/2/1 build that combines two levels of monk with one level of rogue or artificer. Those kinds of builds aren't for everybody, but they're incredibly versatile...

[unbongwah]

Have a look at Impaqt's BloodPriest. You might want to consider handwraps instead of khopeshes; now that Stunning Fist DC is based on char lvl rather than monk lvl, you should have a ridiculously high DC. Plus it's probably a lot easier to have good AC with a monk splash, high WIS, and good DEX.

[Micki]

Thanks guys for your replies Very useful.

Have a look at Impaqt's BloodPriest. You might want to consider handwraps instead of khopeshes; now that Stunning Fist DC is based on char lvl rather than monk lvl, you should have a ridiculously high DC. Plus it's probably a lot easier to have good AC with a monk splash, high WIS, and good DEX.

The BloodPriest looks just about what I'm looking for, but I'm wondering about when to take monk levels. I read that you need 2 levels of monk for evasion, and this build takes monk at 8 and 12. I kinda would prefer it earlier? What do you suggest?

Also, I'm thinking I need to consider lighter armor right now for my char If heavy armor really doesn't do her any good, I wouldn't mind getting her a bit more mobile.

For even more utility, you can consider a 17/2/1 build that combines two levels of monk with one level of rogue or artificer. Those kinds of builds aren't for everybody, but they're incredibly versatile...

That sounds like it could be a fun build, but what would be the benefits and disadvantages of adding 1 level of rogue? And at what level?

[Kawabonga]

That sounds like it could be a fun build, but what would be the benefits and disadvantages of adding 1 level of rogue? And at what level?

If you multiclass rogue, always start with rogue.

Look this build up, I personally think its amazing : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292100

[Micki]

If you multiclass rogue, always start with rogue.

Look this build up, I personally think its amazing : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292100

Thank you for the link. I should mention, I'm not really into solo:ing, and I prefer to play quests on elite. I would only be interested in adding a level of rogue, to be able to handle traps if a trapper wasn't available (which happens all the time). But would I be able to be a kick ass offensive caster cleric, and still have good enough trapper skills to handle traps elite?

[unbongwah]

I read that you need 2 levels of monk for evasion, and this build takes monk at 8 and 12. I kinda would prefer it earlier? What do you suggest?

It's up to you. Just remember if you take monk at 1st level, you get more skill pts but cannot take any metamagics at 1st, so plan your build accordingly.

[Micki]

It's up to you. Just remember if you take monk at 1st level, you get more skill pts but cannot take any metamagics at 1st, so plan your build accordingly.

Would probably be melee:ing at first levels, so metas at lvl 1 isn't a must, but I need to think about it for sure.

[Kawabonga]

Thank you for the link. I should mention, I'm not really into solo:ing, and I prefer to play quests on elite. I would only be interested in adding a level of rogue, to be able to handle traps if a trapper wasn't available (which happens all the time). But would I be able to be a kick ass offensive caster cleric, and still have good enough trapper skills to handle traps elite?

Despite valiance claim that his build can handle traps, I dont even bother on my toon. Mainly, I made mine a first lifer and this build can really use the extra stat points from a 3rd life. I did put enough point in O/L and can handle all locks.

As for the "kick azz offensive caster" part, this build is not top notch in the spell pen or DC departmnet (unless you have wizard past lives) since it sacrifices cleric levels (i.e. sp, dc) for evasion, feats, skill points and AC.

I find that the main perk of such a build is its versatility, without forgetting survivability which is top notch.

Have fun!

[unbongwah]

Would probably be melee:ing at first levels, so metas at lvl 1 isn't a must, but I need to think about it for sure.

It's mostly a matter of making sure you have enough feats for all the metas you do need. Which partly depends on how many melee feats you intend to take. E.g.:

monk 1: TWF, Stunning Fist, Toughness
cleric 1-6: Emp Heal & Maximize @ lvls 3 & 6
monk 2: Power Atk
cleric 7-18: ITWF @ lvl 9, Quicken @ lvl 12, Empower @ lvl 15, GTWF or Heighten @ lvl 18

OTOH, if you took cleric @ lvl 1, you could take a meta or two at lvl 1 and drop, say, Power Atk to squeeze in both GTWF & Heighten, which might make more sense if you plan to stay caster-focused.

[Micki]

Despite valiance claim that his build can handle traps, I dont even bother on my toon. Mainly, I made mine a first lifer and this build can really use the extra stat points from a 3rd life. I did put enough point in O/L and can handle all locks.

As for the "kick azz offensive caster" part, this build is not top notch in the spell pen or DC departmnet (unless you have wizard past lives) since it sacrifices cleric levels (i.e. sp, dc) for evasion, feats, skill points and AC.

I find that the main perk of such a build is its versatility, without forgetting survivability which is top notch.

Have fun!

jup, I'm leaning towards only adding 2 levels of monk as I first was considering.

It's mostly a matter of making sure you have enough feats for all the metas you do need. Which partly depends on how many melee feats you intend to take. E.g.:

monk 1: TWF, Stunning Fist, Toughness
cleric 1-6: Emp Heal & Maximize @ lvls 3 & 6
monk 2: Power Atk
cleric 7-18: ITWF @ lvl 9, Quicken @ lvl 12, Empower @ lvl 15, GTWF or Heighten @ lvl 18

OTOH, if you took cleric @ lvl 1, you could take a meta or two at lvl 1 and drop, say, Power Atk to squeeze in both GTWF & Heighten, which might make more sense if you plan to stay caster-focused.

Yes, I guess my previous comment was a bit noobish, lol.

[jsaving]

I should mention, I'm not really into solo:ing, and I prefer to play quests on elite. I would only be interested in adding a level of rogue, to be able to handle traps if a trapper wasn't available (which happens all the time). But would I be able to be a kick ass offensive caster cleric, and still have good enough trapper skills to handle traps elite?

There are few synergies between trapsmithing and the cleric class (though the find traps spell is admittedly helpful). If you aren't going to do much solo play, I wouldn't recommend devoting 4 skill points per level to search/disarm. And if you aren't going to max those skills out, you won't be an effective trapsmith on elite, where being an ineffective trapsmith is most "damaging".

What would a level of rogue or arti do for you? Well, rogue uncaps UMD, gives you some sneak attack damage, and lets you open doors/chests on those occasions when you do solo. Arti uncaps UMD, gives you the convenience factor of a hireling (dog) you can summon in the middle of a quest, lets you take some reasonable spell damage enhancements, gives you a backup ranged option (repeater), and lets you open doors/chests. You can make a pretty good case for either one of them, though an 18/2 build is also a strong choice.

Take rogue or arti at first level, if you're going to take them at all. Rogue, for the skill points. Arti, because you can then take metamagic feats at 1st level and because the basic repeater proficiency it grants will become steadily less important to your character over time.

As for the monk levels, my advice would be to grab one fairly early in your career for stunning fist but hold off on the second until after you get blade barrier. Some people put off even the first level of monk until after they get blade barrier, but I think the benefits of having stunning fist and water stance offset this (plus, stunning fist is fun to use!). Other people grab both levels of monk as fast as they can so they can evade even low-level fireballs, but I don't find that I "need" evasion until mid to high levels anyway and would prefer to get BB a bit faster than that. I'd probably (and did) go arti-cleric-monk-cleric(untilBB)-monk-cleric(until20).

[Kinerd]

I think you will be disappointed in your build's ability to handle aggro. Evasion is a powerful defensive ability, but it's not a panacea. What are you doing that gets you dangerous levels of aggro? I think tactics changes will get you your desired results without compromising your spellcasting ability.

Also, running speed has nothing to do with Dex. If you splash less than 3 levels of monk, you will be exactly as fast as you are on a pure cleric. The big things that come into play are items of Striding (does not stack with Haste) and making sure your character does not have a Medium or higher load, which is a function of Strength.

[blerkington]

If you multiclass rogue, always start with rogue.

Start with rogue if you want the most skill points overall. If you want to put all of your skill points from a level up into ONE skill (such as UMD) then you don't need to take rogue at first level. 'Always take rogue at first level' is a mantra people like to chant here, but it's not always the best thing to do Think about what you are trying to accomplish by taking that level, then decide.

As for the "kick azz offensive caster" part, this build is not top notch in the spell pen or DC departmnet (unless you have wizard past lives) since it sacrifices cleric levels (i.e. sp, dc) for evasion, feats, skill points and AC

Your DCs will be better as a clonk because they are partly determined by stat modifier. They are not determined by class level, although spell penetration is. As a clonk you have access to water stance which can increase your wisdom by 2, boosting your DCs to above what is available to a similarly-geared pure cleric.

In your original post, you complained that your cleric was slow and couldn't take hits.

A small splash of monk will not make your cleric any faster, but you could fix this by spending some skill points on jump, getting items which add to your movement speed and jump, and avoiding armour which gives a large skill check penalty. This can all be done for a pure cleric as well as a splash.

Your character's ability to take a hit is mainly determined by the number of hit points it has. However, that is not the be all and end all of how to survive; you can also take steps to mitigate damage by adding feats like evasion, damage reduction gear, and obtaining spell effects like stoneskin, fire shield, blur and displacement from clickies, or scrolls if you have the UMD for it

Good luck with whatever decision you make about how to build your toon.

[Micki]

There are few synergies between trapsmithing and the cleric class (though the find traps spell is admittedly helpful). If you aren't going to do much solo play, I wouldn't recommend devoting 4 skill points per level to search/disarm. And if you aren't going to max those skills out, you won't be an effective trapsmith on elite, where being an ineffective trapsmith is most "damaging".

As for the monk levels, my advice would be to grab one fairly early in your career for stunning fist but hold off on the second until after you get blade barrier. Some people put off even the first level of monk until after they get blade barrier, but I think the benefits of having stunning fist and water stance offset this (plus, stunning fist is fun to use!). Other people grab both levels of monk as fast as they can so they can evade even low-level fireballs, but I don't find that I "need" evasion until mid to high levels anyway and would prefer to get BB a bit faster than that. I'd probably (and did) go arti-cleric-monk-cleric(untilBB)-monk-cleric(until20).

Alright. I think I won't be splashing my char with rogue/arti. If I want to go the skill route, I think I'd go pure rogue or arti. I need to run my plan in the char planner and see how choices affects spells, feats, enhancements, etc.

I think you will be disappointed in your build's ability to handle aggro. Evasion is a powerful defensive ability, but it's not a panacea. What are you doing that gets you dangerous levels of aggro? I think tactics changes will get you your desired results without compromising your spellcasting ability.

Also, running speed has nothing to do with Dex. If you splash less than 3 levels of monk, you will be exactly as fast as you are on a pure cleric. The big things that come into play are items of Striding (does not stack with Haste) and making sure your character does not have a Medium or higher load, which is a function of Strength.

Yes, I think I need to ditch heavy armor on my current and future build and maybe even go without. I'm thinking my use of heavy armor is causing her to be this slow.

And aggro? Let's see. BB for most opponents and aura for undead (necro 3 got me aggro every time when I was running aura, with all metas on). BB got me - and the whole party dead in A Relic of a Sovereign Past Elite - and yes, I got aggro from BB I was lvl 12 or 13, most of the others 15.

My char also has bad protection against elemental damage - and dies in traps, while monks tend to be able to run through a lot of them

Your DCs will be better as a clonk because they are partly determined by stat modifier. They are not determined by class level, although spell penetration is. As a clonk you have access to water stance which can increase your wisdom by 2, boosting your DCs to above what is available to a similarly-geared pure cleric.

In your original post, you complained that your cleric was slow and couldn't take hits.

A small splash of monk will not make your cleric any faster, but you could fix this by spending some skill points on jump, getting items which add to your movement speed and jump, and avoiding armour which gives a large skill check penalty. This can all be done for a pure cleric as well as a splash.

Your character's ability to take a hit is mainly determined by the number of hit points it has. However, that is not the be all and end all of how to survive; you can also take steps to mitigate damage by adding feats like evasion, damage reduction gear, and obtaining spell effects like stoneskin, fire shield, blur and displacement from clickies, or scrolls if you have the UMD for it

Good luck with whatever decision you make about how to build your toon.

Current build has all skills in concentration, balance and jump, and is doing fairly well. I guess my problems are that I'm using heavy armor, and have poor protection against elemental damage.

Basically, I started this thread to get some help deciding if I should multiclass for the second life, how I should if I do, and what gear I need to collect. Seems like I'm getting rid of my heavy armor (none of my other chars can wear heavy armor either)