Paly splash on a fighter

[xSeverinax]

Hi guys, currently in the process of creating an AC / intim tank, currently at level 8 and the other night someone asked about doing 18/2 fighter paly rather than pure fighter. It hadn't crossed my mind to do that so I hadn't built for it, but I do have a decent Char - 19 at the moment with ship buff and +3 item. Will hit 22 when I get my +6 item, so that would be +5 to saves. The Pali aura would give me +1 to AC and obviously 1 LOH. The question is, are those bonuses worth losing a fighter bonus feat and the fighter capstone.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity: Grants a 10% Competence bonus chance to double strike with melee weapons and a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with ranged and thrown weapons.

What is so good about this? The 10% to double stike is nice but ranged and thrown bonus is useless to my build.

[unbongwah]

I have a dwarf ftr 14 / pally 2 (SD II) who plans to be 18 / 2 (SD III) if I ever bother to cap her. The bonus to saves (also have FoP) and access to pally wands (mostly CSW & Resist Energy) have definitely helped while leveling. That LoH is basically useless after the first few lvls, though, as it scales to # of pally lvls. But I'm sure I'll miss the extra DPS from the capstone if/when I get there.

If I did it over again, I would probably go ftr 12 / pally 6 / rogue or monk 2: give up some feats & SD III to add Evasion, some extra pally abilities (immunities, DM I, Divine Sacrifice I, Divine Righteousness), and UMD w/rogue splash.

[Kinerd]

To my mind it makes much much more sense to do a 2 monk splash. Consider the case where you save 50% of the time against a Reflex save, such as Delayed Blast Fireball. Right now you have:
50% full damage
50% half damage
total: 75% damage

+5 saves takes you to:
25% full damage
75% half damage
total: 62.5% damage

Because of the way the levels work, you get +3 reflex saves on an 18 fighter / 2 monk over a 20 fighter. Between this and Evasion you have:
35% full damage
65% 0 damage
total: 35% full damage

Also, it's possible (albeit unlikely) that the +5 saves will be of literally no help to you. Once you're saving on everything but a 1, going higher doesn't matter. The Evasion, on the other hand, will literally always be of at least some help for you. Even if you only save on a 20 (which is just as unlikely), you'll still take 0 damage there instead of half.

Certainly Reflex saves aren't everything, but they are an awful lot. You also net +1 feat, although you will probably have to shuffle things around as fighter feats and monk feats don't necessarily allow the same choices. If you are dead set on heavy armor, obviously the monk path doesn't make sense, but it's to my mind at least worth considering.

.

Determining how much double-strike contributes to DPS has a lot of variables: fighting style, Strength bonus relative to overall damage bonus, fortification of target. You won't get the full 10% value as an increase to DPS, but you can reasonably expect at least 5%.

[xSeverinax]

To my mind it makes much much more sense to do a 2 monk splash.

Determining how much double-strike contributes to DPS has a lot of variables: fighting style, Strength bonus relative to overall damage bonus, fortification of target. You won't get the full 10% value as an increase to DPS, but you can reasonably expect at least 5%.

Thanks for both of your replies, Monk and Rogue splashes have also been considered but -

Monk

This would require a complete rework of the toon. I am sword and board, heavy armour, tower shield and using the Chimera's fang http://ddowiki.com/page/Chimera%27s_Fang with all 3 Dragon Marks of Sentinal (looking at the epic version I really don't see why more people dont use it - +10 wep, 50% stacking fort, 20% incite, disintegration, destruction, shocking burst and keen all on one item!). Wisdom was the only stat I could dump as I needed Int for combat expertise and Charisma for Intim / UMD. I have good gear for different levels including Madstone boots and shield, Heavy DT armour, Armour of the Defender etc. I have some monk wraps and Jidz and the monk robes - name forgotten - that increase the damage step from the Lords March chain, but they are all worn by my monk. Plus I won't get a Wisdom bonus to AC which pretty much rules monk out - uncentred, no evasion and no AC boost.

Rogue
I have played rogue's several times, and I love them, I used to run epics regularly on my rogue before I decided to TR him. This means I have some excellent rogue gear - epic utility vest, Min II weps, Radiance guard item, the House Cannith gloves, specs, cloaks etc. But I have never played a rogue at end game with a decent AC, in fact other than the Utility vest for trap heavy epics, I used to wear robes. I loved the high UMD though. Plus the extra sneak damage is useful but my goal is main tank spamming intim so I will rarely get the SA damage.


My main thinking for paly is higher hitpoints over the others (slightly), no need to drop to light armour (robes) and no shield for evasion - thus nerfing my AC. Wands as a class skill (paly) rather than UMD. I can UMD CLW scrolls and wands at the moment. Plus Paly aura gives a +1 stacking AC and +5 saves from Grace at level 2. The LOH is ment to be used for healing others not self heals, currently I carry 2 aid clickies and a CLW clicky to heal up anyone who gets incap on a BYOH quest, I also keep an eternal wand and a couple of CLW wands for emergencies. So while rogue is potentially a good choice I think that a paly splash probably beats it.

Unless someone can teach me how I can hit AC of 80 plus in robes as I haven't got a clue how to do that. Though I am not much more enlightened with armour either, but currently sitting on an AC of 51 self buffed at level 8. This is my first attempt at making a toon with a useable end game AC, capable of being main tank. I usually play rogues and arcanes, with 1 bard healer and 1 cleric TR'd toon - which is the toon I am now trying to build as an intim tank.

[Kinerd]

You can use a shield and Evasion at the same time. The only checks are light/no armor and less than heavily encumbered. That means all you have to do is replace your armor bonus, which I assume is at least 13. There are some obscure named light armors such as the Parasitic Breastplate that come close, but the lack of flexibility for things like Incite or Heal Amp might push you towards bracers or various other epic non-armor items that only get up to 8.

I don't know how your various Max Dex Bonuses shake out, but since you'll still be using a tower shield it seems unlikely that it would go up much if at all.

Using a shield will turn off your Wisdom bonus to AC, so in terms of raw AC you'll almost certainly be behind. However, you could conceivably have the option of an AC mode with just the Fang (or a THF weapon) and a Wis item with robes and a damage reduction mode with the shield and some other item with whatever light armor or robes, and crucially you would have Evasion in both cases.

I also think you would end up with more HP the monk way: the two monk feats can each be spent on Toughnesses, so you gain 44 from that and lose 4 due to base dice for a net of +40 over the Paladin.

[xSeverinax]

I use mithril full plate and tower shield. With mobility feat and the enhancement that increases max dex bonus, my max dex bonus is 6 armour and 4 tower sheild.

Yes monk feats spent on toughness is a good idea. So where can I get an armour bonus from other than jidz teka? Bear in mind I have no epic melee gear other than cavalry plate and swashbuckler shield from the Cove event. So I will be farming extensively and need decent gear to tide me over until I get it. I have 2 sets of the parasitic plate, one has the +10 will save, the other the reflex save used by alts. I have a random +15 intim hat which I could wear but then lose the Minos, I have the thrashak bracers with toughness to offset it, but would still need to wear another item for fort. The minos puts them both on the same slot. I also have human healing amp 20% at the moment from enhancements.

I think then the major issue is what gear can I get to make it all come together? I have linked my myddo page which is current, with buffs stats go up by 2 and AC goes up to 49, then self buffs push it to 51, 52 with my parrying wep.

I have 9 feats left if I splash, and I want;

improved shield mastery
improved shield bash
improved crit
improved trip
greater dragon mark of sentinal
weapon specialisation
improved weapon focus

leaving me with 2 feats which were going to be toughness. I guess I could get TWF but would need an extra +1 to dex so a +3 tome. Power attack has been intentionally left out as the -5 to hit from combat expertise is enough of a penalty without the PA penalty as well.

So you think taking a monk splash would be better? Wouldn't I have to give up on my Chimeras fang then though and use handwraps to keep the AC bonus? Monks can't use a bastard sword and remain centered. By doing this, the entire character build changes, the only reason I went Human was for the Marks of Sentinal to use with the Chimeras fang. Without that the whole idea behind the build no longer exists. Paly or rogue loses the monk feats, but gives me better saves or evasion, and lets me keep my 'theme' for the build. Plus either a much better UMD or class ability to use healing wands for self sufficiency.

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/jelidan/

[Kinerd]

The requirements for monk benefits are pretty intricate. With 2 levels of monk, you start off with:
2 feats
Evasion
Wisdom bonus to AC
Flurry of Blows (full BAB for monk levels)
+1 AC
Stances

If you add a non-ki weapon, such as a bastard sword, you lose the last three, but have no effect on your bonus feats, Evasion, or Wis to AC.
If you add a shield or light armor, you lose the Wis to AC.
If you add heavier than light armor, you lose Evasion.
And you never lose the feats.

.

As to where you can get an armor bonus other than Jidz Tetka, some choices if you want to stay centered are:
-Randomly generated bracers (up to 8)
-Cannith crafted bracers (up to 5)
-Dragontouched Vestments (6)
-Frozen Tunic (up to 8), from Cannith challenges pack
-Siren's Belt (5), from Red Fens, set bonus of +2 Insight AC, epic version 8 and set bonus of +4 Insight.

Really though, if you're going to be using a shield you can't do much better than the Parasitic Breastplate you already have for raw AC. You only have to put up with a red exclamation point in the top right corner telling you you're not centered, you still have Evasion, the HP from Toughnesses, etc. With the +10 Reflex version especially, you'll have a very good Reflex save. If you haven't made an Evasion character before it will shock you how much damage you completely shrug off.

[Riggs]

Dont bother with monk, or evasion, or pally levels.

As said, the minor self healing from 2 pally levels becomes zero benefit at higher levels. Sadly grinding out silver flame favor, which is painful and annoying - gets you far, far better self healing when you need it, at a cost to stats for a while, but -10 to stats is better than being dead.

To transform into a monk splash, or even a rogue splash, you have to rework a bunch of gear, and build feats to make it work, and put a lot more into dex to make evasion remotely useful.

Level 20 gets +1 feat anyway - spend it on toughness if you want. 10% more damage is a pretty big deal, esp on a tank that is meant to hold agro - through dps + hate.

If you decide to go rogue for evasion, and umd, you can still wear decent light armor, get all sorts of other useful skills, like being able to umd heal scrolls and res scrolls, which is far more healing than 2 levels of pally will give.

But if not sure - just stay pure fighter, gear up in the heaviest armor you can get, and decide later if you want to change to a multiclass. And get silver flame favor.

[Riggs]

Really though, if you're going to be using a shield you can't do much better than the Parasitic Breastplate you already have for raw AC. You only have to put up with a red exclamation point in the top right corner telling you you're not centered, you still have Evasion, the HP from Toughnesses, etc. With the +10 Reflex version especially, you'll have a very good Reflex save. If you haven't made an Evasion character before it will shock you how much damage you completely shrug off.

Calvary plate is 16 armor +6-9 or so dex from mithril and fighter stuff.

Parasitic BP is 13 armor with the +3 stacking barks bonus, and higher max dex, but would require close to a 30 dex to make it comparable to the calvary plate give or take.

So unless the character is willing to eat a lesser heart and completely revamp the build, taking on evasion after the fact is probably not going to work very well.

I love evasion. But you have to plan for it at the start of the build to make it work.

[Kinerd]

Have to strongly disagree on what it takes to make Evasion useful.

9 Reflex save just from 18 levels of fighter and 2 levels of monk
4 Morale from GH
3 Competence from Stalwart Defender 3 (or Kensei, and OP's certainly going to take one or the other)
4 Insight from Epic Fang
10 Resistance from Parastic Breastplate
3 from Dex bonus, bare minimum as that's what OP already has
=
36

Forget remotely, that amount of Reflex is enormously useful for tanking. We haven't put anything more into Dex, and we've just scratched the surface of save bonuses.

[Kinerd]

Calvary plate is 16 armor +6-9 or so dex from mithril and fighter stuff.

Parasitic BP is 13 armor with the +3 stacking barks bonus, and higher max dex, but would require close to a 30 dex to make it comparable to the calvary plate give or take.

So unless the character is willing to eat a lesser heart and completely revamp the build, taking on evasion after the fact is probably not going to work very well.

I love evasion. But you have to plan for it at the start of the build to make it work.

The context of the "can't do better" was in the context of armors that permit Evasion. As I already said, this change will definitely be negative AC.

The point is that trading a few points of AC and a bit of DPS for very useful Evasion and a bit of HP is a good trade for a tank.

[toapat]

Hi guys, currently in the process of creating an AC / intim tank, currently at level 8 and the other night someone asked about doing 18/2 fighter paly rather than pure fighter. It hadn't crossed my mind to do that so I hadn't built for it, but I do have a decent Char - 19 at the moment with ship buff and +3 item. Will hit 22 when I get my +6 item, so that would be +5 to saves. The Pali aura would give me +1 to AC and obviously 1 LOH. The question is, are those bonuses worth losing a fighter bonus feat and the fighter capstone.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity: Grants a 10% Competence bonus chance to double strike with melee weapons and a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with ranged and thrown weapons.

What is so good about this? The 10% to double stike is nice but ranged and thrown bonus is useless to my build.

there are few reasons i can think of that sacrificing a Feat and a pretty good capstone (10% more hits = 10% more threat) for Divine grace would actually net you a better character. Lay on Hands is not good without a very deep charisma and paladin level.

the question is, what is your charisma

[Uska]

You can use a shield and Evasion at the same time. The only checks are light/no armor and less than heavily encumbered. That means all you have to do is replace your armor bonus, which I assume is at least 13. There are some obscure named light armors such as the Parasitic Breastplate that come close, but the lack of flexibility for things like Incite or Heal Amp might push you towards bracers or various other epic non-armor items that only get up to 8.

I don't know how your various Max Dex Bonuses shake out, but since you'll still be using a tower shield it seems unlikely that it would go up much if at all.

Using a shield will turn off your Wisdom bonus to AC, so in terms of raw AC you'll almost certainly be behind. However, you could conceivably have the option of an AC mode with just the Fang (or a THF weapon) and a Wis item with robes and a damage reduction mode with the shield and some other item with whatever light armor or robes, and crucially you would have Evasion in both cases.

I also think you would end up with more HP the monk way: the two monk feats can each be spent on Toughnesses, so you gain 44 from that and lose 4 due to base dice for a net of +40 over the Paladin.

My fighter can use 10 dex right now in medium armor and if I got more dex I could tweak it to get up 1 or 2 more so I dont think adding monk would help me but paladin might.

[Uska]

The context of the "can't do better" was in the context of armors that permit Evasion. As I already said, this change will definitely be negative AC.

The point is that trading a few points of AC and a bit of DPS for very useful Evasion and a bit of HP is a good trade for a tank.

the evasion might be nice but already having over 800 hp a few more hp is meh I think I would lose quite a bit of ac doing monk

[count_spicoli]

speaking from experience as i have a lvl 20 half elf stalwart defender with a 92 raid buffed ac(only need recitation and inspire heroics here), 97 shield blocking and 978 hp and have tanked hard horoth, elite izzy and elite sulu and take little to no damage as that ac is a swing and a miss everytime. second you dont need evasion just a good reflex save as you will make the save and only take half damage which with the bad guy not hitting you on physical attacks makes healing you neglegent.

Going pally is not going to help you much. first off you have to be lawful good so if your not now you will have to do something about that. second your dex should be higher than your cha if you are trying to build ac tank. reflex save is what you are trying to get. Will save is of no concern as most things that affect that can be buffed to be prevent. i am pulling +8 dex and with another couple epic tokens will be pulling +10 with greater ninbleness on my cavalry plate. my cha is around 20 or so with my eagle spendor 6th wand i use. dont even where any gear for cha as i have no where to fit it in. My char is longand on khyber. feel free to check him out to get an idea of gear and things you need to get where you are going.

second off dont bother with shield bash. you want to slug with a shield in your hand to hold aggo against crazy dps. i tell people when i am tanking to let it rip as a no fail intim guarentees if he turns you will just turn him back around.

[Dartwick]

The paly splash doesnt make much sense.
If you were to rework the gear or a a monk or rogue splash could make sense but isnt necessarily better.

[xSeverinax]

Dont bother with monk, or evasion, or pally levels.

the minor self healing from 2 pally levels becomes zero benefit at higher levels. grinding out silver flame favor, which is painful and annoying

Level 20 gets +1 feat anyway - spend it on toughness if you want. 10% more damage is a pretty big deal, esp on a tank that is meant to hold agro - through dps + hate.

If you decide to go rogue for evasion, and umd, you can still wear decent light armor, get all sorts of other useful skills, like being able to umd heal scrolls and res scrolls, which is far more healing than 2 levels of pally will give.

The LOH is for getting an incap toon up to positive health when incapped rather than self heals, wand whipping as well, though a cure serious wands can be pretty usefull anyway between fights for self healing and BYOH. The SF pots with -10 to stats is horrible. Never use them.

there are few reasons i can think of that sacrificing a Feat and a pretty good capstone (10% more hits = 10% more threat) for Divine grace would actually net you a better character. Lay on Hands is not good without a very deep charisma and paladin level.

the question is, what is your charisma

Currently my charisma is 20, using a +4 item, tome and ship buff. I have a +6 item in the bank for higher level but no exceptional charisma yet, so 22 charisma for definite at lvl20 perhaps more if I get a +7 item, +3 tome or exceptional.

Dex is 18 with a +1 item and no ship buff as no dex shrine on our boat.

Going pally is not going to help you much. first off you have to be lawful good so if your not now you will have to do something about that. second your dex should be higher than your cha if you are trying to build ac tank. reflex save is what you are trying to get. Will save is of no concern as most things that affect that can be buffed to be prevent.

Yeah I took LG as my alignment so I have that covered, dex should hit 26 by end game possibly slightly higher.

My rogue is on his 3rd life (he wore light armour and robes), and I have a level 16 monk that I have been playing with as well. on and off but not seriously. I just wanted to try it out when I went VIP.

[xSeverinax]

The paly splash doesnt make much sense.

Can you qualify that with reasons why?

To me +5 to all saves, access to divine wands, +1 AC and an admittedly limited healing ability to stop a toon dying or get a cleric back to positive health so that they can then heal themselves. No death = +10% exp.