What was broken with Zen Archery?

[sweez]

I see some people here are a bit clueless as to the etymology of the word 'ranger'. Google is your friend!

[Ravoc-DDO]

I see some people here are a bit clueless as to the etymology of the word 'ranger'. Google is your friend!

Doesn't change the fact that 50% of the ranger class is tailored for archery, unlike monks.

But that's beside the point, this discussion is about Zen Archery.

[Failedlegend]

Thousand Stars should stay with Throwing Stars.

Agreed...but leave it as is until they make something useful

Bows should get their own special attack, something like sniper shot from Deepwood Snipers.

Terrible Example because S-Shot sucks...also it should be for all centered ranged weapons (or for ease of coding just make it all ranged weapons its not like monks will use anything not centered)

Doesn't change the fact that 50% of the ranger class is tailored for archery, unlike monks.

Actually Rangers are WRONG in DDO their supposed to have to choose Melee OR ranged a la Dark Monk vs. Light Monk...I really don't get why they changed that.

Regardless Zen Archery Monks, Ranged Kensais, Bowbarians, Bards w/Repeaters, Rogue Mechanics, Arties, Machine Gun Nuns, Silver Flame FvS,etc. have just as much right to use their abilities as their Melee Counterparts

[Lleren]

Terrible Example because S-Shot sucks...also it should be for all centered ranged weapons (or for ease of coding just make it all ranged weapons its not like monks will use anything not centered)

I'm sorry, but I've never seen a Kyudo practitioner machine gun arrows. I have seen them do some incredibly accurate shooting. Would you prefer I suggest True Shot, it is actually closer to what they do, but even less powerfull.

[Failedlegend]

I'm sorry, but I've never seen a Kyudo practitioner machine gun arrows. I have seen them do some incredibly accurate shooting. Would you prefer I suggest True Shot, it is actually closer to what they do, but even less powerfull.

I think an AOE attack would be cool


Zen Rain

Launches a Ki Infused Projectile it to the air where it bursts into a multitude of Rain like streaks of ki that tear through an enemies very essence (Will Save)



Side-note: There's PLENTY of archery styles not just Kyudo...also this is DnD the rules here are different

[Ovrad]

The way I see it, when a monk melees an enemy, he is actually getting attuned to the energy lines (or pressure points or other mystical whatyoucallit) of his opponent. Then, when he starts to feel them enough, he can disrupt/change his opponent's energy by pinpointing them with special strikes, causing various effects like creating heat or stopping the victim's heart.

I feel it would be hard to get attuned to an opponent's energy while shooting him from across the room. Not to mention that arrows/shurikens aren't precise enough to pinpoint pressure points or energy nods on your opponent's body. Acupuncturists don't use arrows you know.

Of course, this is just my interpretation and others might see it differently...

[Lleren]

I think an AOE attack would be cool


Zen Rain

Launches a Ki Infused Projectile it to the air where it bursts into a multitude of Rain like streaks of ki that tear through an enemies very essence (Will Save)

Side-note: There's PLENTY of archery styles not just Kyudo...also this is DnD the rules here are different

Interesting one, still single shot based, but AoE and a Ki attack...

Kyudo and its variations, is the only style I've heard called Zen Archery, and as I understand it, the inspiration for the feat. They where the folks presented as Centered with a Bow. If you have another example of "Monks with bows" that is not Kyudo/Kyujutsu based or related to them, I'd love to see it.

While DnD adds additional fantasy to the mix to get to some fun places, often things are inspired by some variation of reality. Spells have really grown over the years, but even so, at first some replicated siege weapon effects for tabletop use.

[Dolphious]

Poor AA rangers, they've been gimped for so long, and instead of doing anything about it turbine first releases artificers which are better ranged and have piles of other goodies, and now monks (or at least monk 6 splits) are better ranged DPS. Pretty sad.

[Aesop]

Poor AA rangers, they've been gimped for so long, and instead of doing anything about it turbine first releases artificers which are better ranged and have piles of other goodies, and now monks (or at least monk 6 splits) are better ranged DPS. Pretty sad.

That could be fixed by dropping AA as a ranger PrE and just having it as a Racial PrE. Of course they'd have to actually make DWS a viable PrE and give rangers some decent Ranged Centric Spells.

Sniper Shot lvl 1 (PBS become anywhere and sneak attack as well)
Arrow Storm lvl 4 (see Fail's suggestion up above for an idea of what this one would be)
Hunter's Eye lvl 2 (sneak attack damage for rangers in spell form short short duration)
Foebane lvl 4 (make any weapon a bane weapon against your favored enemies)

still though drop 10k stars from bows and just let centered weapons gain the benefit of ki generation and elemental (and possibly void) attacks... maybe even the path basic strikes... to get their finishing moves

Then monks still have some good benefits for the archer without stepping on the shuriken.

Aesop

[EustaceTrevelyan]

As I read the bug report on it, in some cases where the primary ability score was less than 10, it was not properly using the feat-specified ability score for the attack bonus. So, for Zen Archery, if you (for some reason) had a Dex of 8, it was not always using Wisdom instead of Dex for the attack bonus.

Same thing with Insightful Strikes when that first came out; if you dumped dex (which of course you don't want to do on a ranged arti, IPS is the sheez), insightful strikes wouldn't work, since the code didn't plan for negative modifiers. Glaring error? Yeah, but then i don't know what sort of caffiene-fueled overnighters are required to code these updates

[SealedInSong]

I know you all got happy with the introduction of Zen Archery, and you wanna get even more spoils by piping the entire monk repertoire from melee into ranged through Zen Archery, but that's just wrong. Ki generation & general usage should remain restricted to melee only. If any class would gain such ranged abilities, it should be the ranger imo.

Variety breathes life into the game and is the arguably the core of DDO. Cubbyholing ranged chars into the Ranger class works against that entirely.

I have always seen Ki as being that the monk is one with his weapon, and is building focus and control through wielding the weapon. Hence why the amount of Ki you can keep hold of is determined by your concentration score, noting really to do with building energy through physical contact.

Even the name, 'Zen archery', doesn't that more or less mean that you are one with the Bow and are in perfect harmony with it? Why not allow monks to build Ki if they are using any centered weapon and also imbue the elemental strikes on the arrows/shurikens as they fire/throw them?

My AA had a spare feat when I was levelling so I took Zen archery, more or less gives me a 'stance' for either +1 to hit (Air) or +1 damage (Fire) I was dissapointed that I couldn't use my bow for the Ki strikes.

This. The notion of qì from which "ki" in DnD/DDO is inspired should permit the monk to build energy while centered and attacking, period. That says nothing about permitting special melee-only attacks such as Quivering Palm and Touch of Death. It just means that the monk can build up their mental/spiritual energy and release it in its appropriate forms, whether by using elemental strikes in a ranged weapon (and I would promote that in shuriken, as that's hardly overpowered or out of context) or switching to melee to do something like Touch of Death.

Basically, the worst case scenario of not considering allowing ki building and some limited ki expenditure from ranged attacking would be cutting off whole new, viable, flavorful builds from DDO, and the best case scenario would be that we'd preserve some dogmatic, melee-centric view of martial arts.

Both "should".

Additionally at least the basic elemental strikes should be available for use.

Monks are not siphoning off energy from their targets, they aren't vampires.

Yes the Healing curse should not proc from range because that is a touch requirement kinda like a damage shield in reverse... still not vampirism

Attacks of any kind while centered should produce ki. That's kinda the point of being centered really.

This goes for handwraps, shuriken, kamas, Zen Archery w/ bows, Whirling Steel Strike w/ long swords and weapons with the Ki weapon enhancement on it ... I don't care if its a Ki Repeating X-Bow. Regardless, these Ki centric weapons should also channel at the very least the basic elemental attacks.

Additionally, in the case of Zen Archery, it changes the base attack stat for the weapon to Wisdom if it is higher than Dexterity therefore it should also allow Wisdom to take the place of Dexterity for the purposes of Feat Prerequisites.

oh and as for Ranged is for rangers or rangers are for ranged... they are both wrong.

Rangers can range and ranged can be for rangers... bur ranged is not exclusive to any one class and shouldn't be... no more than twf should be.


Then again I also don't think Monk should have the monopoly on Unarmed Combat and would like to see Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike add to the Feat lists.

Aesop

Totally agree with every point Aesop made.