Beverly Helfbilly Ranged Contender

[ShadowFlash]

CL's:
12 FvS /6 monk /2 fighter: 16 on BB/16 on DP (from epic Abishai and chaosrobe)
13 cleric /6 monk /1 wizard: 17 on BB/19 on DP (as above but radiant servant II as well)

I think this is right?

What's the difference in DP DPS here?

Looks right to me, assuming infused chaos robes stack with the greater abashi set. In my testing, I couldn't find a cleric who had lower than 17 levels with the greater abashi set and robes to test (DP caps@20). Anything higher than CL15 on BB is moot, but it is nice with all that wisdom, unlike the typical battle-cleric, DC's are actually nice

It's tough to calculate exact DP DPS because of factoring in the 1st 34 seconds to gain the full triple stack and incremental gains based on the HP (read:length of time to kill) of the Boss you're facing. Also, the likely hood of fitting all the gear into a deep splashed build is low. All these variable significantly change the values...more so than 1CL. for example, representing a Level 12 Cleric, with the GA set, Eardweller, Sup Rad, Sup Rad Lore, and maxed smiting lines available at cleric 12 is 155DPS@the 34 second mark, then incrementaly increasing towards the theoretical maximum of 219DPS. My brain hurts too much right now to show more, but the change to cleric level 13 where you can pick up incredible smiting III will raise the DPS more significantly than adding the infused chaos robes CL+1. This leaves the armor slot open for more appropriate gear on a deep splashed toon.

Additionally, Alchemical crafting 1 silver and 1 adamantine kama mystical 2 would net you Sup Rad and Sup Laceration + respective superior lore in each. As a monkcher's melee DPS is already a tad lackluster, these could be used for the ki generation phase AND as centered caster weapons.

If you want specific numbers, I need exact information of gear and enhancements

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

Looking back over the OP:

• I like rogue dilettante, you mention the dex enhancement though, what's this for? Reflex save?
  What do you expect your end game sustainable strengthen be?
  You mention spot, did you choose to skip the UMD/Concentration combo that I'd have assumed?
  I think I'd have started with lower charisma. Even 8 base is fine (8+2 tome+6 item or 8 base +2 tome +2 ship/yugo +4 eagles splendour in the event of disjunction).

How about the fighter vs ranger question?
Strength shot capped at +8, haste boost, improved critical, +1 strength enhancement, +4 HP
vs
3d6 SA, TWF'ing, 10 extra skill points, sprint boost, FE: evil outsider (+3 damage)

Did I miss anything?
Honestly, not a lot in it either way.
Here's what I think:
1. I enjoy as much variety in end game that I can get so FE:EO is nice but not a deal breaker (if construct was in here too I might have a different opinion).
2. Most of what ranger gives loses it's appeal somewhat at high level.
3. IC:R has CC aspects which is a strength of an AA in epic quests.
4. SA is situational (and doesn't suit my playstyle for this sort of character).
5. I don't see the build having a high strength (14 base +2 tome +6 item +1 exceptional +2 ship +2 yugo -2 water stance +2 rage +3 Abishai =30 sustainable which is only +2 damage over the fighter version. Titans Grip is the only other applicable boost that comes to mind (+6, 1 minute, 3/day). I'd prefer to drop strength and raise other attributes if the final gear set gives flexibility (and use yugo pots only if ship buffs are lost).

If you're level 10 then you're just at the beginning of the true test of the character if you keep up your elite streak. I find level 12 to be the level where things start to get serious.

Anything so far is hardly indicative. I'm playing a fleshy melee pure Artificer (hardly optimal) and most pug groups are simply my audience as I demolish the quest. Last night I tried to join an elite bloody crypt at level 5 and was refused. I sent a tell saying that I was fine and would do my bit. At the end despite there being 3 arcanes I had the second most kills. Moral of this story: gear is everything.

Good luck with the build anyway, I'll look forward to hearing how the build and DPS holds up in raids/epics.

[ShadowFlash]

No AP room to pick up smiting lines on these builds 'eh? That will render DP almost useless. Better to focus on Blade Barriers for gearing then. A shame that the FvS version's smiting pre-req's will go to little use. Radiant Servant Pre-req's are mostly useless anyhow.

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

Looks right to me, assuming infused chaos robes stack with the greater abashi set. In my testing, I couldn't find a cleric who had lower than 17 levels with the greater abashi set and robes to test (DP caps@20). Anything higher than CL15 on BB is moot, but it is nice with all that wisdom, unlike the typical battle-cleric, DC's are actually nice

It's tough to calculate exact DP DPS because of factoring in the 1st 34 seconds to gain the full triple stack and incremental gains based on the HP (read:length of time to kill) of the Boss you're facing. Also, the likely hood of fitting all the gear into a deep splashed build is low. All these variable significantly change the values...more so than 1CL. for example, representing a Level 12 Cleric, with the GA set, Eardweller, Sup Rad, Sup Rad Lore, and maxed smiting lines available at cleric 12 is 155DPS@the 34 second mark, then incrementaly increasing towards the theoretical maximum of 219DPS. My brain hurts too much right now to show more, but the change to cleric level 13 where you can pick up incredible smiting III will raise the DPS more significantly than adding the infused chaos robes CL+1. This leaves the armor slot open for more appropriate gear on a deep splashed toon.

Additionally, Alchemical crafting 1 silver and 1 adamantine kama mystical 2 would net you Sup Rad and Sup Laceration + respective superior lore in each. As a monkcher's melee DPS is already a tad lackluster, these could be used for the ki generation phase AND as centered caster weapons.

If you want specific numbers, I need exact information of gear and enhancements

ShadowFlash

This is the gearset that I'm planning for my 10k stars monkcher. I might end up going for completionist in which case I'd try these builds with the following gearset at cap:

Head: Epic Helm of Mroranon
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Wretched Twilight
Boots: Madstone Boots
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Gilvaenors Necklace/Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Gilvaenors Ring (+2 exceptional strength)/Kyosho's Ring (Holy Burst)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Earth/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow, Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

However, I would want to swap in Abishai set so it becomes (as a possible example):
Head: Epic Helm of Frost
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Belt: GS MinII +45 HP Belt
Necklace: Gilvaenors Necklace/Shintao Cord
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Armour: Epic Frozen Tunic (toughness)/Chaosrobe (+10 reflex slotted)
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker
Ring2: Gilvaenors Ring (+2 exceptional strength)/Kyosho's Ring (Holy Burst)
Weapons: Epic Bow of Earth, Epic Thornlord, Earth/Water Alchemic Bow, LitII GS Bow, Air/Water Alchemical Handwraps

The only thing that is missing from this gear lineup (as superior brilliance V clicky and eardweller are swap items) is Lore.

Options for lore (while firing the bow):
Noxious Embers (but lose ranged alacrity)
Blue Dragon Scale (but lose Frozen Tunic CC/Chaosrobe reflex saves)
Alchemical Bow (but lose tier 2 effect which is the strongest)
Cannith Crafted lore item (trinket only, lose Epic Gem of Many Facets and corresponding effects).

Of the 4 the Blue Dragon Scale definitely looks best which is a workable solution though trinket isn't completely out the window either (with corresponding gear reshuffling).

[wax_on_wax_off]

No AP room to pick up smiting lines on these builds 'eh? That will render DP almost useless. Better to focus on Blade Barriers for gearing then. A shame that the FvS version's smiting pre-req's will go to little use. Radiant Servant Pre-req's are mostly useless anyhow.

ShadowFlash

Max in damage (6 AP) and 1 in smiting chance and damage is an absolute no brainer. The rest is less sure. Afaik, you'd be looking at about a 10-12% increase in DP DPS with higher lines on crit chance/damage for 10 AP, not really worth it, imo.

[ShadowFlash]

This is the gearset that I'm planning for my 10k stars monkcher. I might end up going for completionist in which case I'd try these builds with the following gearset at cap:

snip....

I'll work up the math for you tomorrow and PM you with results or do you want it in your monckcher thread? It takes me a while to compute Blue Dragonscale is a nice option (and what I think I may use on my battle-cleric), but twin alchemical kamas are your best bet for sure for both BB and DP...with maybe a tier 2 mystical bow for keeping the stack up on DP during 10k/manyshot phases (weapon swap+casting time+weapon swap does hurt bow CC/DPS considerably I'd imagine).

If we were to have changing lore values, I.E. alchemical Rad Lore handwraps, keep the Air 1st tier for +10 stuns if needed and use a clicky for potency, then refresh the stack when on a bow without lore it adds significant timing complexities to calculate, but we could go nuts and try if that's a more viable gearset.

I can't stress enough how big a difference the increased lore (and multiplier) makes to DP.

Just to be clear, we're looking at Cleric 12 or 13?
What enhancements can you squeeze in, any?
No eardweller clicky I assume?
What is the Lore level for Cannith crafting?
I honestly have not gone far enough to tell which enhancements are more important at partial tiers either, so different examples due to AP concerns would help to compare.

And just for reference for those watching , my DPS numbers are based off the average of the ENTIRE time DP is running, including the 1st 33 seconds of no triple stack. This is why I always list 2 numbers, the "starting" 34 second mark DPS, AND the theoretical maximum. If you lose the stack...it all starts over, which is why maintaining the stack is most important. IIRC it takes a mob with 45,000 HP's to come close to theortical max DPS (averaged over complete time) due to this mathematical proccess

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'll work up the math for you tomorrow and PM you with results or do you want it in your monckcher thread? It takes me a while to compute Blue Dragonscale is a nice option (and what I think I may use on my battle-cleric), but twin alchemical kamas are your best bet for sure for both BB and DP...with maybe a tier 2 mystical bow for keeping the stack up on DP during 10k/manyshot phases (weapon swap+casting time+weapon swap does hurt bow CC/DPS considerably I'd imagine).

If we were to have changing lore values, I.E. alchemical Rad Lore handwraps, keep the Air 1st tier for +10 stuns if needed and use a clicky for potency, then refresh the stack when on a bow without lore it adds significant timing complexities to calculate, but we could go nuts and try if that's a more viable gearset.

I can't stress enough how big a difference the increased lore (and multiplier) makes to DP.

Just to be clear, we're looking at Cleric 12 or 13?
What enhancements can you squeeze in, any?
No eardweller clicky I assume?
What is the Lore level for Cannith crafting?
I honestly have not gone far enough to tell which enhancements are more important at partial tiers either, so different examples due to AP concerns would help to compare.

And just for reference for those watching , my DPS numbers are based off the average of the ENTIRE time DP is running, including the 1st 33 seconds of no triple stack. This is why I always list 2 numbers, the "starting" 34 second mark DPS, AND the theoretical maximum. If you lose the stack...it all starts over, which is why maintaining the stack is most important. IIRC it takes a mob with 45,000 HP's to come close to theortical max DPS (averaged over complete time) due to this mathematical proccess

ShadowFlash

I imagine I'd go 13 cleric / 6 monk / 1 wizard and 12 FvS / 6 monk / 2 fighter. I'd stick with either major radiance lore on the trinket or greater arcane lore on the blue dragon scale.

I think that you're overstating the impact of lore/enhancements. 1% of crit chance ~= +1% damage iirc, +.1 crit multiplier equals slightly less than +1% damage. For this reason I'd go full ranks in smiting damage (6 AP), 1 rank in crit chance (1 AP, 3% chance) and 1 rank in smiting damage (1 AP, +.25 multiplier). With Greater Arcane Lore that gives 1d6+level*(1.75+.45)*(2) for base damage (assuming maximise only) and 12% chance to crit for double damage irrc.

I'll definitely have eardweller and superior brilliance V clickies available.

Post it in a thread, the monkcher thread has the cleric and FvS builds in them, not sure how polished they are though mind you so it could go there. I'm sure the OP would appreciate calcs for his build as well. I know that I'd specifically love to know the difference that an epic abishai set will make to my DP.

Cheers

[tinyelvis]

I recommend the rogue dilettante over the ranger. Sneak attacks can occur quite often especially when playing with a group. The 3.5 - 10.5 extra damage per shot really adds up (that is multiplied up to 4 for many shot and 10k star, which usually occurs against any unaware foe as the initial shot). Add to this the additional strength over 26 potential. I also definitely recommend ranger levels over fighter. I certainly would not drop bow strength for improved crit.

The divine/monk/x build seems to me to be very powerful and versatile. I like it much better so far than my pure artificer. At this point he sure is much more lethal with better survivability. I anticipate as I level, bow damage vs. mob hit points will drop but FvS spells (especially DP and BB) will play a bigger roll and more than pick up the slack. At that point, I probably would drop the ninja spy and pick up the whole light line.

[ShadowFlash]

Posted some relevant DP math/gear choices in..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4354934
It's just easier to keep my math organized on my end if I put it there

1 important conclusion is Tier III smite, and Tier II both prayers is better than Tier IV with only Tier I each prayer for the same AP cost (12)

ShadowFlash

[tinyelvis]

Posted some relevant DP math/gear choices in..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4354934
It's just easier to keep my math organized on my end if I put it there

1 important conclusion is Tier III smite, and Tier II both prayers is better than Tier IV with only Tier I each prayer for the same AP cost (12)

ShadowFlash

Nice optimization of the AP expenditure. I might plot some of this data up and I think i might expand on this for an analysis of the arcane.

[tinyelvis]

Posted some relevant DP math/gear choices in..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4354934
It's just easier to keep my math organized on my end if I put it there

1 important conclusion is Tier III smite, and Tier II both prayers is better than Tier IV with only Tier I each prayer for the same AP cost (12)

ShadowFlash

I did some calculations. Though this can be true. It is not always true. In general, it depends on the value of your lore item and the size of your enhancement and item bonuses. If I get time, I will write up a little analysis.

Ok lets first write down an equation for spell damage.

Non critical spell damage = (Base spell damage) * (meta magic type effects) * (enhancements type bonuses)

Here,
Base Spell damage (Base) = quoted spell damage accounting for weighted values.
Meta magic type effects (MM) = things like maximize, empower, or sorcerer capstone
Enhancement type bonuses (EB) = Enhancement damage bonus and item bonuses.

If we include criticals then,
Expected damage per event = (1 - critical % chance)(spell damage) + (crit % chance) * (crit damage multiplier) * (spell damage)

Then,
Exp DMG = Base * MM * EB * ((C% * CM) + (1 - C%))

or,
Exp DMG = Base * MM * EB * (Crit) where Crit = ((C% * CM) + (1 - C%))

Now in order for it to be better to take certain critical enhancements that modify Crit over those that fully modify EB in the FvS enhancement line, the following relationship must be true.

EB + .1 < EB * Crit over a particular bound (i.e. going from smiting III to IV).

Let's say EB = 1.3 which represents smiting III bonus and no item bonus, then

Crit > 1 + (0.1/EB) = 1 + (0.1/1.3) = 1.077

In the case where no lore item is present, then taking two tiers of each crit line in smiting (C% = .06, CM = 2) would result in,

Crit = (0.06*2) + (1 - 0.06) = 1.06

Which is less than 1.077. Therefore, since the upgrade to smiting IV cost but 4AP and the upgrade on the crit side cost 6, in this case it would be better to choose smiting IV. It is interesting to note, the higher the value of "EB" the lower the value that Crit needs to be. Also, lore items can increase the value of Crit in two ways. I setup some matrices for Crit based on the different lore items present in the game and produced values for "Crit". These can be used to help determine not only when best to take the critical lines over direct damage boosts but also which individual critical line to take and when. I will probably at some point post a thread and show this data.

Let me know if I made any dumb errors.

[ShadowFlash]

I did some calculations. Though this can be true. It is not always true. In general, it depends on the value of your lore item and the size of your enhancement and item bonuses. If I get time, I will write up a little analysis.

I would be interested in this Like I said in my math thread, I just tested for all the gear scenario's laid out. I'm curious where that crossover point is, if there is one. I haven't found a realistic scenario yet that 4/1/1 is better than 3/2/2, but I haven't tested that many combinations. Writing that program for my TI-81 was my best idea in a while

ShadowFlash

[tinyelvis]

Again, its a combination between lore item and enhancement buffs. If you have a superior lore item but no item buff, then you are better off going for the damage boost instead of crit. This situation and the one quoted in the previous thread make two cases where you are better off going for the damage line. On the other hand, the same setup with superior brilliance clicky and the crit line is better.

Its this equation,

CRITnew > CRITold * (1 + (0.1 / Eb))

CRITold = the current value of your crit enhancements using this equation: (crit% * critmult + (1 - crit%)) = CRITold

Eb = Enhancement bonus + Item bonus

The break off point is the line created by the plot of of CRITnew as a function of Eb. Everything above this lines means the critical situation is better choice (so long as it is costs the same or less than the Eb approach.) I suppose you could incorporate costs directly into this equation by writing the values as functions of cost.

[ShadowFlash]

Plotting is not my forte' to be sure , but running your scenario through my program, you are correct. I tested CL's 13-18, and in each case the lack of ANY lore item, brings the 4/1/1 split ahead by almost exactly 2 DPS This still assumed a brilliance clicky (who casts DP without one?). I went even further, and came up with this progression (by AP cost and power).

No Lore Item Progression:
4/1/1 = 12 AP
4/2/2 = 16 AP
4/3/3 = 22 AP

ANY Lore Item Progression:
3/2/2 = 12 AP
4/2/2 = 16 AP
3/3/3 = 18 AP
4/3/3 = 22 AP

This was tested with the bare minimum arcane lore. Greater or Superior Lore bring a much larger motivation to go Crit Lines first.

I believe we're saying the same thing now, thanks for the math breakdown. Does this look right to you? If it does, I'll add the basic guildlines to my math thread.

ShadowFlash

[tinyelvis]

I extended your cool study to arcane enhancements with some neat preliminary results. I really need to organize my notes and post a thread. But to spill the beans a little, it seems I was buying enhancements in the wrong order for arcane casting. It seems the best approach often is one point in damage enhancement, then one each in criticals before going back to damage. Finish up with critical line in a non intuitive way. More info later.

The key idea here is that it depends on two things, one.. your enhancement buffs and two, your lore item. Oddly enough it seems the enhancement buffs influence the situation the most. A high enhancement buff shifts the benefit to the critical side. I never would have imagined this.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I extended your cool study to arcane enhancements with some neat preliminary results. I really need to organize my notes and post a thread. But to spill the beans a little, it seems I was buying enhancements in the wrong order for arcane casting. It seems the best approach often is one point in damage enhancement, then one each in criticals before going back to damage. Finish up with critical line in a non intuitive way. More info later.

The key idea here is that it depends on two things, one.. your enhancement buffs and two, your lore item. Oddly enough it seems the enhancement buffs influence the situation the most. A high enhancement buff shifts the benefit to the critical side. I never would have imagined this.

Got to keep this in perspective though. While leveling if you should score a critical it will usually mean lights out for a mob with or without more points in critical damage and in most cases you can 1 shot 95% of trash without any criticals at all.

My level 10 Artificer currently has 5/1/1 in lightning iirc and is using chimera's breath for bastard sword proficiency. It's nice seeing ~150+ crits and even more with lightning motes. For Artificers optimal allocation of APs is especially important but accessing lore is harder (only just now have lightning lore on the rune arm since level 9).

[ShadowFlash]

As I don't graph any of my results, for me now, it's plug the individual parameters, write down the results, and test something else to compare. I wish I could wrap my brain around your formula's better I've looked at Artificer's also, and traditionaly it's 4/1/1 and 4/1/1 in 2 lines, but with a lore item equiped, my hunch is it will be better to go 3/2/2 in each as well. I'm way to lazy to test which influences more, the crit %, or the multiplier, when making the hard choice of AP cost (1 AP to spend). I'm anxious to see your results

ShadowFlash

[wax_on_wax_off]

As I don't graph any of my results, for me now, it's plug the individual parameters, write down the results, and test something else to compare. I wish I could wrap my brain around your formula's better I've looked at Artificer's also, and traditionaly it's 4/1/1 and 4/1/1 in 2 lines, but with a lore item equiped, my hunch is it will be better to go 3/2/2 in each as well. I'm way to lazy to test which influences more, the crit %, or the multiplier, when making the hard choice of AP cost (1 AP to spend). I'm anxious to see your results

ShadowFlash

I played around with this once. With the change to the enhancement system it's always better to max out damage before looking at more than 1 in crit chance and damage. 1 extra percentage chance of a crit equates, iirc, to ~+1% DPS and +.10 multiplier to slightly less than +1%.

The order as I see it:
1/0/0
1/1/1 (this changed recently when someone pointed this out to me for which I'm grateful)
7/1/1
7/5/5 (for savant PrE ONLY)

Can go an extra 10 AP for ~10% DPS with the chosen school if desired but honestly I don't see any reason to whatsoever when there are much better things to choose. With superior lore it's probably a bit more than 10% (I was working with major lore).

[tinyelvis]

I post a more thorough analysis here,

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...06#post4356706

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just saw this post which makes the 1 wizard splash much more appealing for the access to force enhancement for +20% blade barrier damage.

I'm just worried that inwont get around to trying either of the splits that I like before the enhancement overhaul goes and ruins everything (doom!)