Bard questions on gear

[amoraenk]

I have two warchanter one is bard 20 human with gtwf, quicken, maximize, extend, pa, and weapon focus. The other is halfling 14 bard 4 rogue 2 fighter with gtwf, pa, weapon focus, khopesh, extend, toughness, icrit slash.

Your first warchanter : GTWF? So what weapons for a gtwf bard? your STR for this build?

If I were making charisma based pure level spellsinger without the falcuttas I would go human and have PA, Maximize, Icrit Slash, quicken, extend, wiz past life, bard past life, and Heighten and use an ESOS.

I had the same build (without ESOS) for my spellsinger before getting the dual epic elyd edge.
My charisma based spellsinger is human and have Maximise, Quicken, wizard past life, bard past life, and the 3 TWF feats. So the difference is IC,PA, extend for you and 3 TWF feats for me. So we can say for the CC & heal job, this is the same.
But for you build you need to invest gears on STR to have some dps, gears on Charisma and gear on CONS/Hp.
Your STR: 16 (starting base) + 1 (Human enhancement) + 4 (tome +4?) +2 (rage) + 2 (guild) + (7 epic item) + 3 (exceptional TOD Ring) + 3 (profane?? habishai set?) +2 (yugo potions). So : 40?
And you need to invest some gears on Char to be a CCer spellsinger.
Epic item charisma +7, TOD ring exceptional +3? +2 spell focus enchantment item etc...
With my build i can only focus on charisma and Constitution and keep free gear slots for others bonus and have the same magnitude of dps.

Exactly my point the feats you list do not have the bard and wizard past life and in order to get the +2 to dc for enchantment spells you need to invest in the active past life feats. So your total with the feats you list is 39 dc.

Here is the misunderstanding.
My post :

"Advantage of a cha-high warchanter:
- Better dc spell : 10+ 18 +6 (heighten) + 2 (item) + 2 (capstone) = 38 (+1 with the new update, see release note "The House Phiarlan Retainer's buff for Enchantment Save DC's is now a Morale bonus instead of an Enhancement bonus, to allow it to better stack with items.") So 39 (decent after a crushing despear + hold person/hold monster or mind fog+ crushing despear + Otto's sphere of dancing)."

Here i speak about the example of a cha-high warchanter and his enchantment DC is indeed 39.

But when i speak about a dc of 41, i speak about my spellsinger high charisma.


So, for the OP : yes dual Epic elyd edge is viable, but for an high charisma bard.
TIPs: The charisma damage bonus from the off-hand is full and not 1/2! The, the damage is the same for the main hand and the off hand.

The cacophony proc is extremely low and only hits for around 250-350.

+1 the proc rate is the same as incineration, it would be great if the proc rate was same as greater incineration...

[maddmatt70]

Your first warchanter : GTWF? So what weapons for a gtwf bard? your STR for this build?

40+ strength not sure exact number, but has abashi set, level ups into strength and a 17 base I think with +3 strength tome. I have to get cracking on this but Epic Konzek Cruelty (just have to get base item) and tier 3 alchemical rapier (earth/air/earth) have this when dps or mineral 2 rapiers. What I have been doing alot these days is healing on my bard in raids and the like so it has seemed like personal dps is less important if that makes any sense; hence, I have not rushed out to get a konzek cruelty base item (probably take 3-4 hours of farming the quest for rare).

I had the same build (without ESOS) for my spellsinger before getting the dual epic elyd edge.
My charisma based spellsinger is human and have Maximise, Quicken, wizard past life, bard past life, and the 3 TWF feats. So the difference is IC,PA, extend for you and 3 TWF feats for me. So we can say for the CC & heal job, this is the same.
But for you build you need to invest gears on STR to have some dps, gears on Charisma and gear on CONS/Hp.
Your STR: 16 (starting base) + 1 (Human enhancement) + 4 (tome +4?) +2 (rage) + 2 (guild) + (7 epic item) + 3 (exceptional TOD Ring) + 3 (profane?? habishai set?) +2 (yugo potions). So : 40?
And you need to invest some gears on Char to be a CCer spellsinger.
Epic item charisma +7, TOD ring exceptional +3? +2 spell focus enchantment item etc...
With my build i can only focus on charisma and Constitution and keep free gear slots for others bonus and have the same magnitude of dps.
.

It is really not too difficult to invest in charisma and strength and con gear as a matter of fact it is pretty easy.

I would like to point out that extend is a heck of a feat. I can almost guarantee that you do not displace others in a party which is quite simply one of the most powerful bard spells in the game because keeping displacement on others reduces the damage intake immensely. I have never run with a bard who does not have extend that keeps displacement on others and I am guessing you are no different.

[amoraenk]

40+ strength not sure exact number, but has abashi set, level ups into strength and a 17 base I think with +3 strength tome. I have to get cracking on this but Epic Konzek Cruelty (just have to get base item) and tier 3 alchemical rapier (earth/air/earth) have this when dps or mineral 2 rapiers. What I have been doing alot these days is healing on my bard in raids and the like so it has seemed like personal dps is less important if that makes any sense; hence, I have not rushed out to get a konzek cruelty base item (probably take 3-4 hours of farming the quest for rare).

If your STR is 42:

Dual weapons with Epic Konzek Cruelty and Epic Tier 3 alchemical rapier (earth/air/earth):

Main hand (EKC): (20 swing with dice results going from 1 (miss) to 20 so 19 hit/20 swing and 6 critical hit.
base : 13*(6+4*3.5+16+9.15+1+9+5) = 781.95
13 : hit range without crit
16 : STR damage bonus
5 : PA
6 : +6 ehancement item
4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 shock + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
9 : bonus song
9.15 : lightning strike (average damage)
1 : craft

Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+16+6+5+5.5+3.5)*2 +9+1+9.15+2*3.5) = 672.9
6: critical range (18-20)
16 : STR damage bonus
6 : +6 ehancement item
5: PA
5.5 : shocking burst
3.5 : maiming
2*3.5 : 1D6 shock + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
9 : bonus song
9.15 : lightning strike (average damage)
1 : craft

total main hand : 1454.85

Off hand (Tier 3 alchemic rapier): (20 swing with dice results going from 1 (miss) to 20 so 19 hit/20 swing and 6 critical hit.
base : 13*(6+4.5+2*3.5+8+9+5+1+9.15+2.625) = 679.575
13 : hit range without crit
8 : STR damage bonus on off-hand
5 : PA
6 : +6 ehancement item
4.5 +2*3.5 : base + 1D6 acid + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
9 : bonus song
9.15 : lightning strike (average damage)
2.625 : acid torrent 5% of 15D6 so (average 2.625)
1 : craft

Crical hit : 6*[(4.5+3.5+8+6+5)*2+9+1+9.15+2*3.5+2.625) = 496.65
6: critical range (18-20)
8 : STR damage bonus off hand
6 : +6 ehancement item
5: PA
3.5 : acid burst
4.5: weapon base
2*3.5 : 1D6 acid + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
9 : bonus song
9.15 : lightning strike (average damage)
2.625 : acid torrent 5% of 15D6 so (average 2.625)
1 : craft

off hand : 1176.23
total off-hand : 0.8*1163.88 = 940.98
0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats

***TOTAL : 2395,83 ****

To remind with the high charisma warchanter build with dual epic elyd edge the total was *2395,66*.
So really a comparable DPS. Yes the personal DPS is less important than the healing job, but as i said the high charsima warchanter had ~ 300 sp more; 39 dc enchant (or 38 if the extend feat is choosen) and better Charisma skills.


I think the both builds is comparable and efficient. What i want to show here, is that dual Epic elyd edge are as nice weapons for a Charisma oriented bard as best epic weapons for a strengh oriented bard.

I would like to point out that extend is a heck of a feat. I can almost guarantee that you do not displace others in a party which is quite simply one of the most powerful bard spells in the game because keeping displacement on others reduces the damage intake immensely. I have never run with a bard who does not have extend that keeps displacement on others and I am guessing you are no different.

Completely agree with you. Displacement is a powerfull spell and it isn't used as it must be. You are also right, i don't keeps displacements on others all the time. It's up to my role during a quest.
If i'm the CCer in an easy epic quest i dont cast displacement on others, my job is to hold/make dance all coming monsters. So, The others don't take a lot of damages.
When i'm a the healer, i cast always displacement. It conserve my sp a lot.
I always cast displacement on others and me on EDA, after casting an mind fog + dancing ball.
When there are a caster and a healer, and i play the role of a melee, i have a lot of sp so casting displacement and haste is really the absolute minimum i can do to reduce the load of the caster/healer.
Eventually i always cast displacement on others (depending also if the others caster on raid cast it on others) when it's the time to beat a boss without true seeing.

Extend feat is nice for bard. But bard is a feat starving class. i think this feat is used to play more confortably but not completely a "must have" to play your choosen role.

[maddmatt70]

Well there is more to the story. First as has been documented Lightning Strike 2 shroud weapons do the most dps so realistically if a bard wanted to be more about dps then my healing warchanter they would use dual LS2 rapiers for bosses or Konzek and one LS2 rapier. This summer my guess is they will remove the weapon focus requirement from warchanter so I will be able to keep improved critical all the time instead of sometimes.

Other Notes: the Konzek has the added value of having improved destruction which is great for bosses that have fortification. For adds on my other bard I dual wield earth air air and earth earth (eventually earth third tier) khopeshes which does a solid job of earth grabbing and earth prisming adds which adds alot of critical damage. Your numbers above do not factor in improve destruction and earth grab/prism which in reality means the strength based version does more overall dps and the party as a whole benefits more dpswise. Finally, and fundamentally if something is not good or has sonic resistance or has a different damage reduction then good/silver your dps goes down whereas the strength based warchanter just switches to a more appropriate weapon that overcomes damage reduction or to a weapon that the mob/boss has no resistance in question. By the way my warchanter is 44 strength with boat buff, yug pot, and rage spell.

What is great about the dynasta falcutta is you can potentially do more damage on chaotic targets then strength based bards can so my argument is that being charisma based and wielding those with edges as back up is more feasible. A bard that does that though loses some of the weapon effects such as improved destruction, dr overcoming, earth grab etc. so its a build choice at that point.