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  1. #1
    Community Member Myrdinn's Avatar
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    Default Bard questions on gear

    I currently have a bard THF with a lighting 2 falchion.

    I wanted to switch to epic elyd sword.

    So first, is the elyd sword as a dmging weapon viable.

    Should I go TWF with 2 elyd, 1 elyd and another epic weapon or should I go with 1 elyd and a shield (epic swashbucker).

    And which kind of gear (epic) would be good for a warchanter.

    Thank you,

    Xalekk - 18pal/2rog Xalek - 18barb/2rog
    Xalekia - 18Rng/1Mnk/1Rog Alekian - 12wiz/6mnk/2ftr
    Cynvan - 18Clr/2Mnk Aleathiel - 20 sorc

  2. #2
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    Do you have enough feats for full TWF line?
    Must have:
    * Prereq: WF:Piercing, Power Attack
    * Melee: TWFx3, IC:Piercing
    * Squishy: Toughness
    Do you want your bard to fulfil any other role? You might need to invest feats into that. Maximize, Quicken, SF/GSF Enchantment, Spell Penetration...

    If you don't want to fulfil other roles, what's the point of going Cha-based?

    Not going warchanter could save you a feat or two. And you could dump str from 13 to 8. Though a melee without PA.. I don't know.

    Not worrying about TWF would save you 3 feats. I guess I'd go with rapier and shield.

  3. #3
    Community Member Myrdinn's Avatar
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    Would like to be able to do a little of all but without sacrificing my DPS too much

    Xalekk - 18pal/2rog Xalek - 18barb/2rog
    Xalekia - 18Rng/1Mnk/1Rog Alekian - 12wiz/6mnk/2ftr
    Cynvan - 18Clr/2Mnk Aleathiel - 20 sorc

  4. #4
    Community Member badbob117's Avatar
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    I have a epic elyd egde. It is awful dps. The cacophony proc is extremely low and only hits for around 250-350. I only really use it for the mass ac and skills songs. It is alright if you want use your charisma to hit though..

    You will be disappointed in your dps compared to your shroud weps. The proc rate for the sonic blast is just to low in frequency and damage to make this a go to dps weapon. They are so many other better weps to use.

    It is still a very lackluster weapon for bards even after the update to it. It is a novelty item for most bards or a niche item for extremely high charisma bards who cannot rely on str to hit. .If you have no problem hitting use something else.

    That is my two cents n the epic elyd edge. It is a situationally fun wep but not something i would want to rely on for damage full time. Especially on a warchanter in epics. Going from a lit2 falchion to a elyd edge is a big step down IMHO.

    As far as some easy to get gear goes for epics. Lot of nice alternatives for a warchanter. Easy to get epic axe of fire is one of the newest craziest weps in the game. This thing fries most mobs who are not immune to fire in a few swings in epic. Get that if you have not already. A lot of other nice stuff as well from diff packs. The terror sword from mindsunder. Epic shimmering pendant and magewright cloak will boost your fascinate to amazingly superb crowd control capabilities on any low charisma warchanter. Not something you want on full time but def has its purpose. . Some cannith crafted greater bane weps will help a lot as well. There is a ton of stuff for bards to benefit from in epic content. You just have to pick and choose what you like best.


    Edit. If you want to do a lil bit of everything You are gonna have to sacrifice a bit. No two ways about it. It is a dilemma most bards are faced with at some point. Good luck with everything.
    Last edited by badbob117; 02-20-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member amoraenk's Avatar
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    Imho dual Epic elyd edge is the way to go for a based charisma spellsinger. It's better than a warchanter with light II falchion or be similar, at least.

    calculation :


    **lvl 20 warchanter with +9 dmg song, 3*THF, PA and IC : slashing.*** (5 feats)

    STR :
    18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
    Damage bonus = + 16

    GS lightning II falchion for 20 swings with dice rolls from 1 (miss) to 20:

    base (without crit) : 13*(5+3.5*5+16+10+9.15+1+9) = 879.45
    13 range hit without crit.
    5 : weapon bonus
    3.5*5: 2D6 holy +2D6 base damage + 1D6 shock
    10: PA
    9 : song bonus
    1 : craft
    9.15: average lightning strike.

    Crical hit : 6*[(5+3.5*2+16+10)*2+9+5.5+3*5.5+1+9.15)+4*3.5 =680.9
    6: critical hit range [15+20]
    5.5: 1D10 from shockburst
    4*3.5: shockblast

    Glancing blow:
    0.5*0.75*(19*(5+16+2*3.5+9+0.09*3.3.5))= 264.57
    0.5 : 50% glancing blow damage
    0.75 : 75% of glancing blow while standing
    19 : range hit
    0.09: 9% weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows

    ***TOTAL: 1824.92 ***



    **lvl 20 spellsinger with +7 dmg song, 3*TWF*** (3 feats)

    CHAR :
    18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 4 (enhancement) +2 (capstone) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 46
    Damage bonus = + 18


    Dual Epic Elyd edge:

    Main hand
    base : 16*(6+4*3.5+18+5.68+1+7) =826.88
    16 : hit range without crit
    6 : +6 ehancement item
    4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 sonic + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
    7 : bonus song
    5.68 : cacophony (average damage, same as incineration))
    1 : craft

    Crical hit : 3*[(2*3.5+18+6)*2 +7+1+2*3.5+5.68) = 248.04
    3: critical range (18-20)
    total main hand : 1074.92

    off hand : 0.8* main hand = 859.936
    0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats


    ***TOTAL : 1934.86 ****


    This calculation don't count damages from sneak attack item, seeker or guild buff damage etc...

    With the 3 TWF feats for a human spellsinger, you can add 2 spell focus enchantment (or Past life wiz and bard), quicken, maximise and heighten.
    The heal is acceptable with maximise, quicken, the sp pool and sp regen.
    enchantment dc : 10 + 18 + 2 (spell focus item) +2 (capstone) +6 (heighten) + 2 (spell focus feats) +1 (song) = 41 dc. (enough)
    Last edited by amoraenk; 02-20-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post
    stuff
    Why not a CHA-high War Chanter or Virt?

    The biggest drawback is not how well it does against one opponent, but rather that it essentially locks you in. Provided you slotted good in the red slot, you can handle the DR of many things. Do you carry stacks of these with different DR components?

    The question, I think, really is around what role you expect your character to play and when. What are you doing in boss fights? Are we just talking about the trash? etc.

    If you're a CHA-high bard anyway, go w/ the eEE, since melee is likely a secondary focus. If you are STR based, skip it except for targeted use.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbob117 View Post
    You will be disappointed in your dps compared to your shroud weps. The proc rate for the sonic blast is just to low in frequency and damage to make this a go to dps weapon. They are so many other better weps to use.
    +1 for saying that the sonic blast was too low in frequency.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post
    STR: 18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
    Damage bonus = + 16
    With 42|+16 Strength, the damage bonus with two-handed weapons is 16 * 1.5 = 24. This gives you 8 extra damage per hit
    * normal hit: 13*8 =104
    * crit: 6*2*8 = 96
    * glancing blow 0.5*0.75*19*8 = 57
    For a total of +257 damage per 20 swings

  9. #9
    Community Member amoraenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Why not a CHA-high War Chanter or Virt?

    The biggest drawback is not how well it does against one opponent, but rather that it essentially locks you in. Provided you slotted good in the red slot, you can handle the DR of many things. Do you carry stacks of these with different DR components?

    The question, I think, really is around what role you expect your character to play and when. What are you doing in boss fights? Are we just talking about the trash? etc.

    If you're a CHA-high bard anyway, go w/ the eEE, since melee is likely a secondary focus. If you are STR based, skip it except for targeted use.
    I agree with you. What i want say is EEE is THE weapon for CHA-high bard (PRES doesn't count here).
    Yes, my dual EEE are red slotted good, so silver and good dr breaker, and i carry stack of byesh weapon scrolls (cannith arty vendor), adamantine weapons scrolls (vendor), planar weapons scrolls (action house but not used a lot) and cold iron weapons (action house, not used a lot (EADQ if needed)). The trade is 1D6 damage from elemental weapon vs the DR bypass.

    The roll i expect to play with my bard is a support character, jack of all trades master of none. The role depend of what the group need -> CC, heal or DPS.That's why i choose a spellsinger, he can help casters and melee. But spellsinger, warchanter and virtioso are able to CC, heal and be dps.

    Where i didn't agree with you is that a cha-high bard is secondary focus on melee.
    A cha-high bard can focus on melee and be more decent as CCer and healer.


    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    With 42|+16 Strength, the damage bonus with two-handed weapons is 16 * 1.5 = 24. This gives you 8 extra damage per hit
    * normal hit: 13*8 =104
    * crit: 6*2*8 = 96
    * glancing blow 0.5*0.75*19*8 = 57
    For a total of +257 damage per 20 swings
    Thanks you are right.
    So, 1824.92 +257 = 2081,2.

    With the Str-high warchanter -> feat : 3 thf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, Maximise, Extend
    So with a cha-high warchanter -> feat : 3 twf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, maximise, heighten

    Dual Epic Elyd edge:

    Main hand
    base : 13*(6+4*3.5+18+5.68+1+9+5) = 762.84 (edit calculation error)
    13 : hit range without crit
    6 : +6 ehancement item
    4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 sonic + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
    9 : bonus song
    5.68 : cacophony (average damage, same as incineration))
    1 : craft

    Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+18+6+5)*2 +9+1+2*3.5+5.68) = 568.08
    6: critical range (18-20)
    total main hand : 1330.92

    off hand : 0.8* main hand = 1064,74
    0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats

    ***TOTAL : 2395,66 **** (edit calculation error)


    ESOS with the STR-high warchanter:
    * normal hit: 13*(10+5*3.5+24+9+10+1)=929.5
    * crit: 6*[(5*3.5)+24+10+10)93+9+1]= 1167
    * glancing blow 0.5*0.75*(19*(10+24+5*3.5+9+10)) = 431.06
    ****total : 2527.56****

    DPS with TWF EEE with charisma or TWF ESOS with Str is the same order of magnitude...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrdinn View Post
    So first, is the elyd sword as a dmging weapon viable.
    Yes but for a high-charisma bard.

    Advantage of a cha-high warchanter:
    - Better dc spell : 10+ 18 +6 (heighten) + 2 (item) + 2 (capstone) = 38 (+1 with the new update, see release note "The House Phiarlan Retainer's buff for Enchantment Save DC's is now a Morale bonus instead of an Enhancement bonus, to allow it to better stack with items.") So 39 (decent after a crushing despear + hold person/hold monster or mind fog+ crushing despear + Otto's sphere of dancing).

    - more sp : ~1400 sp for cc and heal.
    - more umd ~50 +
    - more haggle.
    - good dps ... ( damage adds advantage twf, as +8 or +13 from sneak attack, +4 dmg bonus from item etc..., +1D6 from from red dragon armor, +2 competence guild buff dmg... Furthermore with twf it's easier to bypass DR with scrolls)


    PS: excuse me, my english is terrible
    Last edited by amoraenk; 02-21-2012 at 11:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    my warchanter using the epic rapier of air and epic smallblade

    i did take twfx3, toughness, ic, wf, PA, and maximize (human).

    i wouldnt make a s&b bard very horrible dps. i already have a cc wizard, and made this guy to be more of a spellblade style.

  11. #11
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    If you have the option to which you likely do not you could make 2 epic dynasta falcuttas and two edges. That is a more feasible dps scenario. The epic dynasta falcuttas are solid dps on chaotic creatures and edges are mediocre to poor dps when you are not fighting chaotic creatures. It is very hard to get the dynasta falcutta shards however there is also the issue of the falcuttas being khopeshes which likely mean -4 to hit.
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  12. #12
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post



    Thanks you are right.
    So, 1824.92 +257 = 2081,2.

    With the Str-high warchanter -> feat : 3 thf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, Maximise, Extend
    So with a cha-high warchanter -> feat : 3 twf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, maximise, heighten

    Dual Epic Elyd edge:

    Main hand
    base : 13*(6+4*3.5+18+5.68+1+9+5) = 827.84
    13 : hit range without crit
    6 : +6 ehancement item
    4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 sonic + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
    9 : bonus song
    5.68 : cacophony (average damage, same as incineration))
    1 : craft

    Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+18+6+5)*2 +9+1+2*3.5+5.68) = 568.08
    6: critical range (18-20)
    total main hand : 1395.92

    off hand : 0.8* main hand = 1116,74
    0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats

    ***TOTAL : 2512,66 ****


    ESOS with the STR-high warchanter:
    * normal hit: 13*(10+5*3.5+24+9+10+1)=929.5
    * crit: 6*[(5*3.5)+24+10+10)93+9+1]= 1167
    * glancing blow 0.5*0.75*(19*(10+24+5*3.5+9+10)) = 431.06
    ****total : 2527.56****

    DPS with TWF EEE with charisma or TWF ESOS with Str is the same order of magnitude...


    Yes but for a high-charisma bard.
    I agree that bard songs are better for two weapon fighting characters but I am having alot of trouble buying your numbers and assumptions here. What does all this mean? What is a high strength warchanter to you? Why would not someone cast an arty self scroll on an e sos? Is everything we fight good, etc.?

    Edit: the primary reason I would be inclined to go two handed fighting vs. two weapon fighting on a charisma based bard is because you save three feats i.e. you can still do o.k. dps while twitch attacking and use those feats slots on something else. For a two weapon fighting character they must have those feats or they do quite a bit less dps. What do you really gain by going with those feats? Some mediocre two weapon fighting dps when you could take several cc feats instead..
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 02-21-2012 at 11:24 AM.
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  13. #13
    Community Member amoraenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I agree that bard songs are better for two weapon fighting characters but I am having alot of trouble buying your numbers and assumptions here. What does all this mean? What is a high strength warchanter to you? Why would not someone cast an arty self scroll on an e sos? Is everything we fight good, etc.?
    STR :
    18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
    Damage bonus = + 16

    A bard can't cast an arty scroll on a two handed weapon.
    Yes an arty can cast this on warachanter's ESOS, but it's situational here, as other bonus and other item bonus, boosts...

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Edit: the primary reason I would be inclined to go two handed fighting vs. two weapon fighting on a charisma based bard is because you save three feats i.e. you can still do o.k. dps while twitch attacking and use those feats slots on something else. For a two weapon fighting character they must have those feats or they do quite a bit less dps. What do you really gain by going with those feats? Some mediocre two weapon fighting dps when you could take several cc feats instead..
    For the charisma warchanter in my example: the dps isn't mediocre... Or a STR-based warchanter with a ESOS have also a mediocre dps...
    In this example, the charisma based warchanter is oriented to be more mele thant CC, but he can be an average spell CCer with some sp. The STR based warchanter can't.

    Then if you want to build a spellsinger, more oriented for CC and heal but with the 3 twf feats :
    The dps isn't mediocre (~ 1950/ 20 swing) as you say and the spells dc is 41+.
    Last edited by amoraenk; 02-21-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member amoraenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrincipal View Post
    my warchanter using the epic rapier of air and epic smallblade

    i did take twfx3, toughness, ic, wf, PA, and maximize (human).

    i wouldnt make a s&b bard very horrible dps. i already have a cc wizard, and made this guy to be more of a spellblade style.

    What is your STR?
    If it's 42.
    main hand: epic rapier of air (tier 3) scrolled with elemental weapon:
    base : 13*(6+5*3.5+16+7.44+1+9+5) = 805.22
    Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+16+6+5)*2 +9+1+3*3.5+7.44+5.5) = 608.64
    total main hand : 1413.86 for 20 swings.

    off hand: epic Cutthroat's Smallblade (tier 3) scrolled with elemental weapon:
    base : 13*(6+3*3.5+8+9.33+1+9+4.5+2.5) = 660.4
    Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+8+6+5)*2 +9+1+1*3.5+9.3+2.5+4.5) = 490.8
    total off hand : 0.8*(660.4+490.8)= 920.96

    ***Total for 20 swings : 2334.82 ***
    Last edited by amoraenk; 02-21-2012 at 12:11 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post
    STR :
    18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
    Damage bonus = + 16
    I have the abashi set on both my warchanters for +3 more strength. My pure warchanter is human for +1 to strength, but most pure warchanter dps oriented two handed melee will be H-orc which means a heck of alot more strength and power attack, etc. A nice thing about the SOS is its +10 to hit and it does not have twf -4 to attack so its a net +8 to hit which comes into play again from a dps perspective and allows for -3 for H-Orc improved power attack penalty.

    A bard can't cast an arty scroll on a two handed weapon.
    Yes an arty can cast this on warachanter's ESOS, but it's situational here, as other bonus and other item bonus, boosts...
    When there is an artificer you can get the current version of deadly weapons cast on you and when there is not an artificer somebody else can scroll it on you really arti buffs are a greater advantage to the two handed wielder more often then not.


    For the charisma warchanter in my example: the dps isn't mediocre... Or a STR-based warchanter with a ESOS have also a mediocre dps...
    In this example, the charisma based warchanter is oriented to be more mele thant CC, but he can be an average spell CCer with some sp. The STR based warchanter can't.
    Sorry to break it to you, but a bard does not do very good dps in and of itself. Compare a bard to Kensai Fighter or FB Barbarian or rogue getting sneak attack and then tell me they do good dps.

    Then if you want to build a spellsinger, more oriented for CC and heal.
    The dps isn't mediocre (~ 1950/ 20 swing) as you say and the spells dc is 41+.
    I have three bards. A warchanter can heal just as well as a spellsinger the spellsinger just gets more base spell points. My warchanter after mana supplements (non pots) has over 2500 spell points per shrine which is adequate for any quest. Your spell dc of 41 is not accurate. The max dc is 44 unless you are counting cookies or store pots or something extremely artificial. That 44 dc is for enchantment has +4 charisma tome, litany of dead, yug pot, ship buff, spellsong, wiz past life, bard past life, greater spell focus enchantment feat, +7 charisma, +3 exceptional, greater spell focus enchantment item. Your build lacks much of that.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 02-21-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member amoraenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I have the abashi set on both my warchanters for +3 more strength. My pure warchanter is human for +1 to strength, but most pure warchanter dps oriented two handed melee will be H-orc which means a heck of alot more strength and power attack, etc. A nice thing about the SOS is its +10 to hit and it does not have twf -4 to attack so its a net +8 to hit which comes into play again from a dps perspective and allows for -3 for H-Orc improved power attack penalty.
    So I agree, an other estimation must be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    When there is an artificer you can get the current version of deadly weapons cast on you and when there is not an artificer somebody else can scroll it on you really arti buffs are a greater advantage to the two handed wielder more often then not.
    ok so + 3.5*19 for thf : +66.5

    Then i can add sneak attack item :
    for twf : 13 *1.8 *19 = +444.6
    for thf : 13*19 = + 247

    Then i can add +2 damage buff guild :
    for twf : 2 *1.8 *19 = + 68.4
    for thf : 2*19 = + 38

    mainslayer, seeker...

    Often the bonus is better for twf...


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post

    Sorry to break it to you, but a bard does not do very good dps in and of itself. Compare a bard to Kensai Fighter or FB Barbarian or rogue getting sneak attack and then tell me they do good dps.
    I'm not saying that the DPS is very good, but this char-high bard does a dps in the same order of magnitude of a warchanter STR-high. DPS decent, but never a top dps...


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I have three bards. A warchanter can heal just as well as a spellsinger the spellsinger just gets more base spell points. My warchanter after mana supplements (non pots) has over 2500 spell points per shrine which is adequate for any quest. Your spell dc of 41 is not accurate. The max dc is 44 unless you are counting cookies or store pots or something extremely artificial. That 44 dc is for enchantment has +4 charisma tome, litany of dead, yug pot, ship buff, spellsong, wiz past life, bard past life, greater spell focus enchantment feat, +7 charisma, +3 exceptional, greater spell focus enchantment item. Your build lacks much of that.
    Same, i didn't say the max dc is 41, i said with the twf line (my spellsinger) the dc is 41 (42 with the next update). (see my first and second post). I said it's "enough" and said "The roll i expect to play with my bard is a support character, jack of all trades master of none."

    I didn't say a warchanter can't heal :
    see : "But spellsinger, warchanter and virtioso are able to CC, heal and be dps."
    But a cha-based bard have more sp than str-based bard ( I agree here i must add with the same stuff (baubble, spell storing ring, eardweller, etc...)
    Last edited by amoraenk; 02-21-2012 at 12:42 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post

    Same, i didn't say the max dc is 41, i said with the twf line (my spellsinger) the dc is 41 (42 with the next update). (see my first and second post). I said it's "enough" and said "The roll i expect to play with my bard is a support character, jack of all trades master of none."
    This is over the course of the years is pure drivel. Bards at various times have been the best healers, the highest added dps, and the best cc in DDO. Where they are at currently is poor cc, solid healing, and mediocre dps. My pure warchanter can cast otto's irresistable dance and fascinate which is a good as the cc your bard can do in 90+% of the quests really - that to me does not make a warchanter a jack of all trades because I look to do what I do best on her which is heal with some melee.
    (I have quicken and maximize so can battle heal).

    I didn't say a warchanter can't heal :
    see : "But spellsinger, warchanter and virtioso are able to CC, heal and be dps."
    But a cha-based bard have more sp than str-based bard ( I agree here i must add with the same stuff (baubble, spell storing ring, eardweller, etc...)
    Really charisma adds miminal spell points for a bard it is more about items from a spell point standpoint although the spellsinger can get more spell points based on its songs more so then anything else.

    Really the argument for a charisma based bard to go two weapon with dynasta falcutta/edge vs. two handed fighting with the ESOS comes down to the feats vs. the benefit. The thf can get away with not having the two handed fighting feats, but the two weapon fighting can not. In my opinion the slight advantage in dps of the edge vs. the ESOS on charisma based bards does not override the value of 2-3 more feats. I think extend is a tremendous bard feat by the way for instance because displacement, haste and rage all are great bard spells and I also like quicken or better cc feats. The epic dynasta falcutta is very powerful and in my opinion a much more competitive option vs. the loss of those feats.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

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    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post



    Same, i didn't say the max dc is 41, i said with the twf line (my spellsinger) the dc is 41 (42 with the next update). (see my first and second post). I said it's "enough" and said "The roll i expect to play with my bard is a support character, jack of all trades master of none."
    Like I said I would like to see your dc number broken down because I do not believe you. Next update the ship buff will not stack with your +1 to dc spellsong because that is also a morale bonus.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  19. #19
    Community Member amoraenk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is over the course of the years is pure drivel. Bards at various times have been the best healers, the highest added dps, and the best cc in DDO. Where they are at currently is poor cc, solid healing, and mediocre dps. My pure warchanter can cast otto's irresistable dance and fascinate which is a good as the cc your bard can do in 90+% of the quests really - that to me does not make a warchanter a jack of all trades because I look to do what I do best on her which is heal with some melee.
    (I have quicken and maximize so can battle heal).
    Yes fascinate is nice but sorry, you can't cast effectively otto sphere of dancing, hold monster, person... So your CC isn't the same. Can you be a CCer for EDA?? For the heal, my bard can heal same as you (have also maximise and quicken).

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Really charisma adds miminal spell points for a bard it is more about items from a spell point standpoint although the spellsinger can get more spell points based on its songs more so then anything else.
    Yes that's why i choose Spellsinger, the sp bonus from charisma is only ~300. but with the sp song and +200 sp form Pre, it's an nice add.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Really the argument for a charisma based bard to go two weapon with dynasta falcutta/edge vs. two handed fighting with the ESOS comes down to the feats vs. the benefit. The thf can get away with not having the two handed fighting feats, but the two weapon fighting can not. In my opinion the slight advantage in dps of the edge vs. the ESOS on charisma based bards does not override the value of 2-3 more feats.
    So for a warchanter, what do you choose for feats if it's not the thf feats?
    You warchanter seems to focused on healing and some melee.
    PA, wf, Extend, maximise, quicken, ???

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I think extend is a tremendous bard feat by the way for instance because displacement, haste and rage all are great bard spells and I also like quicken or better cc feats. The epic dynasta falcutta is very powerful and in my opinion a much more competitive option vs. the loss of those feats.
    The epic dynastic falcatta is very powerful, you are right but it's too difficult to acquire and with my bard, i don't want trade an another feat for kopesh profeciency.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Like I said I would like to see your dc number broken down because I do not believe you. Next update the ship buff will not stack with your +1 to dc spellsong because that is also a morale bonus.
    Arfff, my bad... You are right, i didn't think the dc song is morale bonus.
    So, enchantment DC : 10 + 18 + 2 (spell focus item) +2 (capstone) +6 (heighten) + 2 (bard pastlife + wiz past life) +1 (song) = 41. Like i said, enough to do the CCer job for a lot of quests.
    Last edited by amoraenk; 02-21-2012 at 02:11 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amoraenk View Post
    Yes fascinate is nice but sorry, you can't cast effectively otto sphere of dancing, hold monster, person... So your CC isn't the same. Can you be a CCer for EDA?? For the heal, my bard can heal same as you (have also maximise and quicken).
    EDA is one of 5 or so quests in the game where a bard can contribute meaningful cc.

    Yes that's why i choose Spellsinger, the sp bonus from charisma is only ~300. but with the sp song and +200 sp form Pre, it's an nice add.

    So for a warchanter, what do you choose for feats if it's not the thf feats?
    You warchanter seems to focused on healing and some melee.
    PA, wf, Extend, maximise, quicken, ???
    I have two warchanter one is bard 20 human with gtwf, quicken, maximize, extend, pa, and weapon focus. The other is halfling 14 bard 4 rogue 2 fighter with gtwf, pa, weapon focus, khopesh, extend, toughness, icrit slash.

    If I were making charisma based pure level spellsinger without the falcuttas I would go human and have PA, Maximize, Icrit Slash, quicken, extend, wiz past life, bard past life, and Heighten and use an ESOS.

    If I were making a strength based pure level bard thf warchanter I would go H-orc with PA, Weapon Focus, Maximize, Quicken, Extend, I crit Slash, and Toughness. I would also consider a 14 bard 6 stalwart defender fighter for a thf H-orc (or twf H-elf) and go with PA, Weapon Focus, ICrit Slash, Weapon specialization, toughness, Shield Mastery, Extend, Two Handed Fighting, Improved Two handed Fighting, Greater Two Handed Fighting, (improved sunder or improved shield mastery or maximize or if twf Khopesh).

    The epic dynasta falcutta is very powerful, you are right but it's too difficult to acquire and with my bard, i don't want trade an another feat for kopesh profeciency.
    You do not need the proficiency you just need to be able to hit.

    So, enchantment DC : 10 + 18 + 2 (spell focus item) +2 (capstone) +6 (heighten) + 2 (bard pastlife + wiz past life) +1 (song) = 41. Like i said, enough to do the CCer job for a lot of quests.
    Exactly my point the feats you list do not have the bard and wizard past life and in order to get the +2 to dc for enchantment spells you need to invest in the active past life feats. So your total with the feats you list is 39 dc.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 02-21-2012 at 02:22 PM.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

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