Bard questions on gear

[Myrdinn]

I currently have a bard THF with a lighting 2 falchion.

I wanted to switch to epic elyd sword.

So first, is the elyd sword as a dmging weapon viable.

Should I go TWF with 2 elyd, 1 elyd and another epic weapon or should I go with 1 elyd and a shield (epic swashbucker).

And which kind of gear (epic) would be good for a warchanter.

Thank you,

[cru121]

Do you have enough feats for full TWF line?
Must have:
* Prereq: WF:Piercing, Power Attack
* Melee: TWFx3, IC:Piercing
* Squishy: Toughness
Do you want your bard to fulfil any other role? You might need to invest feats into that. Maximize, Quicken, SF/GSF Enchantment, Spell Penetration...

If you don't want to fulfil other roles, what's the point of going Cha-based?

Not going warchanter could save you a feat or two. And you could dump str from 13 to 8. Though a melee without PA.. I don't know.

Not worrying about TWF would save you 3 feats. I guess I'd go with rapier and shield.

[Myrdinn]

Would like to be able to do a little of all but without sacrificing my DPS too much

[badbob117]

I have a epic elyd egde. It is awful dps. The cacophony proc is extremely low and only hits for around 250-350. I only really use it for the mass ac and skills songs. It is alright if you want use your charisma to hit though..

You will be disappointed in your dps compared to your shroud weps. The proc rate for the sonic blast is just to low in frequency and damage to make this a go to dps weapon. They are so many other better weps to use.

It is still a very lackluster weapon for bards even after the update to it. It is a novelty item for most bards or a niche item for extremely high charisma bards who cannot rely on str to hit. .If you have no problem hitting use something else.

That is my two cents n the epic elyd edge. It is a situationally fun wep but not something i would want to rely on for damage full time. Especially on a warchanter in epics. Going from a lit2 falchion to a elyd edge is a big step down IMHO.

As far as some easy to get gear goes for epics. Lot of nice alternatives for a warchanter. Easy to get epic axe of fire is one of the newest craziest weps in the game. This thing fries most mobs who are not immune to fire in a few swings in epic. Get that if you have not already. A lot of other nice stuff as well from diff packs. The terror sword from mindsunder. Epic shimmering pendant and magewright cloak will boost your fascinate to amazingly superb crowd control capabilities on any low charisma warchanter. Not something you want on full time but def has its purpose. . Some cannith crafted greater bane weps will help a lot as well. There is a ton of stuff for bards to benefit from in epic content. You just have to pick and choose what you like best.


Edit. If you want to do a lil bit of everything You are gonna have to sacrifice a bit. No two ways about it. It is a dilemma most bards are faced with at some point. Good luck with everything.

[Gorbadoc]

You will be disappointed in your dps compared to your shroud weps. The proc rate for the sonic blast is just to low in frequency and damage to make this a go to dps weapon. They are so many other better weps to use.

+1 for saying that the sonic blast was too low in frequency.

[amoraenk]

Imho dual Epic elyd edge is the way to go for a based charisma spellsinger. It's better than a warchanter with light II falchion or be similar, at least.

calculation :


**lvl 20 warchanter with +9 dmg song, 3*THF, PA and IC : slashing.*** (5 feats)

STR :
18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
Damage bonus = + 16

GS lightning II falchion for 20 swings with dice rolls from 1 (miss) to 20:

base (without crit) : 13*(5+3.5*5+16+10+9.15+1+9) = 879.45
13 range hit without crit.
5 : weapon bonus
3.5*5: 2D6 holy +2D6 base damage + 1D6 shock
10: PA
9 : song bonus
1 : craft
9.15: average lightning strike.

Crical hit : 6*[(5+3.5*2+16+10)*2+9+5.5+3*5.5+1+9.15)+4*3.5 =680.9
6: critical hit range [15+20]
5.5: 1D10 from shockburst
4*3.5: shockblast

Glancing blow:
0.5*0.75*(19*(5+16+2*3.5+9+0.09*3.3.5))= 264.57
0.5 : 50% glancing blow damage
0.75 : 75% of glancing blow while standing
19 : range hit
0.09: 9% weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows

***TOTAL: 1824.92 ***



**lvl 20 spellsinger with +7 dmg song, 3*TWF*** (3 feats)

CHAR :
18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 4 (enhancement) +2 (capstone) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 46
Damage bonus = + 18


Dual Epic Elyd edge:

Main hand
base : 16*(6+4*3.5+18+5.68+1+7) =826.88
16 : hit range without crit
6 : +6 ehancement item
4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 sonic + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
7 : bonus song
5.68 : cacophony (average damage, same as incineration))
1 : craft

Crical hit : 3*[(2*3.5+18+6)*2 +7+1+2*3.5+5.68) = 248.04
3: critical range (18-20)
total main hand : 1074.92

off hand : 0.8* main hand = 859.936
0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats


***TOTAL : 1934.86 ****


This calculation don't count damages from sneak attack item, seeker or guild buff damage etc...

With the 3 TWF feats for a human spellsinger, you can add 2 spell focus enchantment (or Past life wiz and bard), quicken, maximise and heighten.
The heal is acceptable with maximise, quicken, the sp pool and sp regen.
enchantment dc : 10 + 18 + 2 (spell focus item) +2 (capstone) +6 (heighten) + 2 (spell focus feats) +1 (song) = 41 dc. (enough)

[voodoogroves]

stuff

Why not a CHA-high War Chanter or Virt?

The biggest drawback is not how well it does against one opponent, but rather that it essentially locks you in. Provided you slotted good in the red slot, you can handle the DR of many things. Do you carry stacks of these with different DR components?

The question, I think, really is around what role you expect your character to play and when. What are you doing in boss fights? Are we just talking about the trash? etc.

If you're a CHA-high bard anyway, go w/ the eEE, since melee is likely a secondary focus. If you are STR based, skip it except for targeted use.

[amoraenk]

Why not a CHA-high War Chanter or Virt?

The biggest drawback is not how well it does against one opponent, but rather that it essentially locks you in. Provided you slotted good in the red slot, you can handle the DR of many things. Do you carry stacks of these with different DR components?

The question, I think, really is around what role you expect your character to play and when. What are you doing in boss fights? Are we just talking about the trash? etc.

If you're a CHA-high bard anyway, go w/ the eEE, since melee is likely a secondary focus. If you are STR based, skip it except for targeted use.

I agree with you. What i want say is EEE is THE weapon for CHA-high bard (PRES doesn't count here).
Yes, my dual EEE are red slotted good, so silver and good dr breaker, and i carry stack of byesh weapon scrolls (cannith arty vendor), adamantine weapons scrolls (vendor), planar weapons scrolls (action house but not used a lot) and cold iron weapons (action house, not used a lot (EADQ if needed)). The trade is 1D6 damage from elemental weapon vs the DR bypass.

The roll i expect to play with my bard is a support character, jack of all trades master of none. The role depend of what the group need -> CC, heal or DPS.That's why i choose a spellsinger, he can help casters and melee. But spellsinger, warchanter and virtioso are able to CC, heal and be dps.

Where i didn't agree with you is that a cha-high bard is secondary focus on melee.
A cha-high bard can focus on melee and be more decent as CCer and healer.

With 42|+16 Strength, the damage bonus with two-handed weapons is 16 * 1.5 = 24. This gives you 8 extra damage per hit
* normal hit: 13*8 =104
* crit: 6*2*8 = 96
* glancing blow 0.5*0.75*19*8 = 57
For a total of +257 damage per 20 swings

Thanks you are right.
So, 1824.92 +257 = 2081,2.

With the Str-high warchanter -> feat : 3 thf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, Maximise, Extend
So with a cha-high warchanter -> feat : 3 twf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, maximise, heighten

Dual Epic Elyd edge:

Main hand
base : 13*(6+4*3.5+18+5.68+1+9+5) = 762.84 (edit calculation error)
13 : hit range without crit
6 : +6 ehancement item
4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 sonic + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
9 : bonus song
5.68 : cacophony (average damage, same as incineration))
1 : craft

Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+18+6+5)*2 +9+1+2*3.5+5.68) = 568.08
6: critical range (18-20)
total main hand : 1330.92

off hand : 0.8* main hand = 1064,74
0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats

***TOTAL : 2395,66 **** (edit calculation error)


ESOS with the STR-high warchanter:
* normal hit: 13*(10+5*3.5+24+9+10+1)=929.5
* crit: 6*[(5*3.5)+24+10+10)93+9+1]= 1167
* glancing blow 0.5*0.75*(19*(10+24+5*3.5+9+10)) = 431.06
****total : 2527.56****

DPS with TWF EEE with charisma or TWF ESOS with Str is the same order of magnitude...

So first, is the elyd sword as a dmging weapon viable.

Yes but for a high-charisma bard.

Advantage of a cha-high warchanter:
- Better dc spell : 10+ 18 +6 (heighten) + 2 (item) + 2 (capstone) = 38 (+1 with the new update, see release note "The House Phiarlan Retainer's buff for Enchantment Save DC's is now a Morale bonus instead of an Enhancement bonus, to allow it to better stack with items.") So 39 (decent after a crushing despear + hold person/hold monster or mind fog+ crushing despear + Otto's sphere of dancing).

- more sp : ~1400 sp for cc and heal.
- more umd ~50 +
- more haggle.
- good dps ... ( damage adds advantage twf, as +8 or +13 from sneak attack, +4 dmg bonus from item etc..., +1D6 from from red dragon armor, +2 competence guild buff dmg... Furthermore with twf it's easier to bypass DR with scrolls)


PS: excuse me, my english is terrible

[maddmatt70]

Thanks you are right.
So, 1824.92 +257 = 2081,2.

With the Str-high warchanter -> feat : 3 thf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, Maximise, Extend
So with a cha-high warchanter -> feat : 3 twf feats, PA, IC, weapon focus, maximise, heighten

Dual Epic Elyd edge:

Main hand
base : 13*(6+4*3.5+18+5.68+1+9+5) = 827.84
13 : hit range without crit
6 : +6 ehancement item
4*3.5 : 2D6 base + 1D6 sonic + 1D6 elemental (arty self scroll)
9 : bonus song
5.68 : cacophony (average damage, same as incineration))
1 : craft

Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+18+6+5)*2 +9+1+2*3.5+5.68) = 568.08
6: critical range (18-20)
total main hand : 1395.92

off hand : 0.8* main hand = 1116,74
0.8: 80% with 3 twf feats

***TOTAL : 2512,66 ****


ESOS with the STR-high warchanter:
* normal hit: 13*(10+5*3.5+24+9+10+1)=929.5
* crit: 6*[(5*3.5)+24+10+10)93+9+1]= 1167
* glancing blow 0.5*0.75*(19*(10+24+5*3.5+9+10)) = 431.06
****total : 2527.56****

DPS with TWF EEE with charisma or TWF ESOS with Str is the same order of magnitude...


Yes but for a high-charisma bard.

I agree that bard songs are better for two weapon fighting characters but I am having alot of trouble buying your numbers and assumptions here. What does all this mean? What is a high strength warchanter to you? Why would not someone cast an arty self scroll on an e sos? Is everything we fight good, etc.?

Edit: the primary reason I would be inclined to go two handed fighting vs. two weapon fighting on a charisma based bard is because you save three feats i.e. you can still do o.k. dps while twitch attacking and use those feats slots on something else. For a two weapon fighting character they must have those feats or they do quite a bit less dps. What do you really gain by going with those feats? Some mediocre two weapon fighting dps when you could take several cc feats instead..

[amoraenk]

I agree that bard songs are better for two weapon fighting characters but I am having alot of trouble buying your numbers and assumptions here. What does all this mean? What is a high strength warchanter to you? Why would not someone cast an arty self scroll on an e sos? Is everything we fight good, etc.?

STR :
18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
Damage bonus = + 16

A bard can't cast an arty scroll on a two handed weapon.
Yes an arty can cast this on warachanter's ESOS, but it's situational here, as other bonus and other item bonus, boosts...

Edit: the primary reason I would be inclined to go two handed fighting vs. two weapon fighting on a charisma based bard is because you save three feats i.e. you can still do o.k. dps while twitch attacking and use those feats slots on something else. For a two weapon fighting character they must have those feats or they do quite a bit less dps. What do you really gain by going with those feats? Some mediocre two weapon fighting dps when you could take several cc feats instead..

For the charisma warchanter in my example: the dps isn't mediocre... Or a STR-based warchanter with a ESOS have also a mediocre dps...
In this example, the charisma based warchanter is oriented to be more mele thant CC, but he can be an average spell CCer with some sp. The STR based warchanter can't.

Then if you want to build a spellsinger, more oriented for CC and heal but with the 3 twf feats :
The dps isn't mediocre (~ 1950/ 20 swing) as you say and the spells dc is 41+.

[cru121]

STR: 18 (base) +5 (lvl up) + 2 (rage) +2 (guild) +2 (yugo) + 7 (epic item) + 3 (exceptional) +3 (tome) = 42
Damage bonus = + 16

With 42|+16 Strength, the damage bonus with two-handed weapons is 16 * 1.5 = 24. This gives you 8 extra damage per hit
* normal hit: 13*8 =104
* crit: 6*2*8 = 96
* glancing blow 0.5*0.75*19*8 = 57
For a total of +257 damage per 20 swings

[ThePrincipal]

my warchanter using the epic rapier of air and epic smallblade

i did take twfx3, toughness, ic, wf, PA, and maximize (human).

i wouldnt make a s&b bard very horrible dps. i already have a cc wizard, and made this guy to be more of a spellblade style.

[amoraenk]

my warchanter using the epic rapier of air and epic smallblade

i did take twfx3, toughness, ic, wf, PA, and maximize (human).

i wouldnt make a s&b bard very horrible dps. i already have a cc wizard, and made this guy to be more of a spellblade style.

What is your STR?
If it's 42.
main hand: epic rapier of air (tier 3) scrolled with elemental weapon:
base : 13*(6+5*3.5+16+7.44+1+9+5) = 805.22
Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+16+6+5)*2 +9+1+3*3.5+7.44+5.5) = 608.64
total main hand : 1413.86 for 20 swings.

off hand: epic Cutthroat's Smallblade (tier 3) scrolled with elemental weapon:
base : 13*(6+3*3.5+8+9.33+1+9+4.5+2.5) = 660.4
Crical hit : 6*[(2*3.5+8+6+5)*2 +9+1+1*3.5+9.3+2.5+4.5) = 490.8
total off hand : 0.8*(660.4+490.8)= 920.96

***Total for 20 swings : 2334.82 ***

[maddmatt70]

If you have the option to which you likely do not you could make 2 epic dynasta falcuttas and two edges. That is a more feasible dps scenario. The epic dynasta falcuttas are solid dps on chaotic creatures and edges are mediocre to poor dps when you are not fighting chaotic creatures. It is very hard to get the dynasta falcutta shards however there is also the issue of the falcuttas being khopeshes which likely mean -4 to hit.