Rogue sneak attack

[Odrin]

So ive been playing a rogue and i have noticed that my sneak attack is getting min damage.
Talking to other rogues (non halfing) they have been saying their SA damage is bout 90-120ish
ive averaging only 60-90 damage

Ideas??

[TheDearLeader]

Are you an Assassin with the Deadly Shadow Capstone?
Do you have a Sneak Attack +5 item?
Do you have an Exceptional Sneak Attack item?
Are you full Rogue?

..etc.

It would probably be better to compare notes with the people who are making such claims, rather than us.

[Odrin]

Are you an Assassin with the Deadly Shadow Capstone?
Do you have a Sneak Attack +5 item?
Do you have an Exceptional Sneak Attack item?
Are you full Rogue?

..etc.

It would probably be better to compare notes with the people who are making such claims, rather than us.

Full rogue,. cap stone, +5item

[WielderofGigantus]

Is sneak attack damage increased by 50% when the enemy is helpless?

[Odrin]

yes it is

[TheDearLeader]

Is sneak attack damage increased by 50% when the enemy is helpless?

yes it is

I'm not so sure that it is, actually...I do hope some of my fellow Rogues with significant forum presence can confirm or deny. Last I checked, one of the biggest complaints about Helplessness was that Weapon Damage, supplemental damage, spell damage, etc. was all increased, but that sneak was not.

[TheDearLeader]

I decided to do some independent math, and testing, regarding this question.

First, I did the math.

Sneak Attack Damage - Oschkosch
10d6 Level 20 Rogue
3d6 Rogue Assassin III
4d6 Rogue Capstone : Rogue Deadly Shadow
+12 Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
+11 Item-Based Sneak Attack (Tier III Epic Brawling Gloves,
Tier III Ring of the Stalker)
=17d6+23 Sneak Attack Damage Per Swing.
Minimum = 40
Maximum = 125
Average = 82.5

Now, Oschkosch only has SA +4 on at item. With SA +5, that's a damage upgrade from +6 to +8, or a difference of 2. So Non-Halfling Assassin IIIs who have the Capstone, a +5 SA Item, and a +3 Exceptional SA Item would be looking at Minimum 42, Average 84.5, Maximum 127. If they have Tharnes, but no Exceptional SA item, it would actually be 5 damagelower than this value.

Beyond that, I decided to do some practical testing. Me and old Warlock Sobrien, plus some helpers. It goes up to original quality 1920x1280, so feel free to bump that up until it is legible.

Sneak Attack
Tested Minimum = 70
Tested Maximum = 96

Tested Human Versatility (Damage) Minimum = 88
Tested Human Versatility (Damage) Maximum = 126

At the end of the video, I asked Msericca to magically "Hold" Sobrien, to enable mob "Helplessness". I did not see any numbers that were beyond the original tested range of Min/Max values.

Conclusion:
OP's "Other (Non-Halfling) Rogues" are either blowing smoke, or they're using an Enhancement-Based Damage Boost. This does not reflect their damage while boosts are not active.
Helpnessness either does not increase SA damage, or adds it in a way that is not immediately apparent to me at this point. Edit: Keep reading regarding this point.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I heard that for whatever reason the extra SA from helplessness is added to base weapon damage. With this information I watched my damage and notices that it was about double rather than +50% which would seem to support this.

As for the OPs issue, versatility: damage/damage boost/halfling enhancements/exceptional sneak attack might be what you're missing.

[TheDearLeader]

I heard that for whatever reason the extra SA from helplessness is added to base weapon damage. With this information I watched my damage and notices that it was about double rather than +50% which would seem to support this.

I recall hearing about this, now that you mention it.

Let me stare at the video again. I don't really like to base things on combat, since combat doesn't allow me to pause/rewind/recall accurately what buffs or boosts are in action.

[Hobgoblin]

I decided to do some independent math, and testing, regarding this question.

First, I did the math.

Sneak Attack Damage - Oschkosch
10d6 Level 20 Rogue
3d6 Rogue Assassin III
4d6 Rogue Capstone : Rogue Deadly Shadow
+12 Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
+11 Item-Based Sneak Attack (Tier III Epic Brawling Gloves,
Tier III Ring of the Stalker)
=17d6+23 Sneak Attack Damage Per Swing.
Minimum = 40
Maximum = 125
Average = 82.5

Now, Oschkosch only has SA +4 on at item. With SA +5, that's a damage upgrade from +6 to +8, or a difference of 2. So Non-Halfling Assassin IIIs who have the Capstone, a +5 SA Item, and a +3 Exceptional SA Item would be looking at Minimum 42, Average 84.5, Maximum 127. If they have Tharnes, but no Exceptional SA item, it would actually be 5 damagelower than this value.

Beyond that, I decided to do some practical testing. Me and old Warlock Sobrien, plus some helpers. It goes up to original quality 1920x1280, so feel free to bump that up until it is legible.

Sneak Attack
Tested Minimum = 70
Tested Maximum = 96

Tested Human Versatility (Damage) Minimum = 88
Tested Human Versatility (Damage) Maximum = 126

At the end of the video, I asked Msericca to magically "Hold" Sobrien, to enable mob "Helplessness". I did not see any numbers that were beyond the original tested range of Min/Max values.

Conclusion:
OP's "Other (Non-Halfling) Rogues" are either blowing smoke, or they're using an Enhancement-Based Damage Boost. This does not reflect their damage while boosts are not active.
Helpnessness either does not increase SA damage, or adds it in a way that is not immediately apparent to me at this point.

Note this is only from hearsay - but the numbers seem to be added to the front number when they are helpless

a dex based rogue, who said his normal attack damage was in 15-20s and sneak of 60-90 told me he was getting numbers of 50-75 first number.

hob

[TheDearLeader]

Okay, re-watched the video to find some other values.

First, Calculation of Weapon Damage.

Oschkosch's Weapons
Rad II Rapier (1d10+18)
Minimum = 19
Average = 23.5
Maximum = 28
eMidnight Greetings (2d4+14)
Mimimum = 16
Average = 19
Maximum = 22

Then, recording video values.

Not Helpless First-Number Damage (No Crits)
Minimum = 17
Maximum = 28

Helpless First-Number Damage (No Crits)
Minimum = 64
Maximum = 87

Now, certainly that *does* seem like much more than 1.5 times the damage.

Conclusion : Yes, it seems very possible that Helplessness-based Sneak Attack Damage is added to the first number.

Second conclusion : I don't like how I conducted this test. I used TWF, which presented two different weapons with different damage values. Also, the extra damage from Disintegration/Holy/Flaming/Radiance/etc.etc. tends to make the viewing of the video, and combat log, rather unpleasant.

I'll see if I can rope the same crew tomorrow into testing the same thing over again, except I will use a 1-handed weapon with little to no damage mods, and I'll have the Wizzie spam Power Word : Blind scrolls to ensure constant Blindness, and therefore SA damage, on the target.

[sephiroth1084]

My guess would be that SA dice aren't being multiplied, but that SA static values (Tharnes, exceptional, SA Training, etc...) are getting increased on helplessness.

That would be about 28 (your non-helpless max) +23 (total non-dice SA bonuses) = 51*1.5 = 76. If you have some Seeker bonuses or other stuff that's getting multiplied a bit more on helplessness, that would explain the little bit of extra damage above this.

It certainly doesn't look like your SA dice are being multiplied and added in, as half of that, plus your 1.5'ed base should be getting you much higher.

[TheDearLeader]

My guess would be that SA dice aren't being multiplied, but that SA static values (Tharnes, exceptional, SA Training, etc...) are getting increased on helplessness.

That would be about 28 (your non-helpless max) +23 (total non-dice SA bonuses) = 51*1.5 = 76. If you have some Seeker bonuses or other stuff that's getting multiplied a bit more on helplessness, that would explain the little bit of extra damage above this.

It certainly doesn't look like your SA dice are being multiplied and added in, as half of that, plus your 1.5'ed base should be getting you much higher.

I could also believe this. But, then again, I want to do more testing on the matter.

Seeker wouldn't matter, though. I didn't count any critical hits, just normal ones.

[brzytki]

Gimme a minute and i'll put a link to a thread where i tested it and confirmed that it does get multiplied.

Ok, found it: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=16

I tested it on the dummy, regular unarmed (since it's d3 and slow so it's easy to tell what the damage range is) hits were for 30, 31 or 33.
Then i got SA for 65+64 (base+SA) and another one 68+73.
65=33(base damage on helpless dummy) +32(64/2 = half of SA)
68=31(base damage on helpless dummy) +37(73/2=36,5 = half of SA)

Note: No crits, 20-22 regular hit on non-helpless dummy, so 30,31,33 on a helpless one.

[cupajoe]

I decided to do some independent math, and testing, regarding this question.

Thanks for doing the math.

[Odrin]

yes thank you very much for doing the math. I plan on Tr human or halfing so leaning toward human now

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So ive been playing a rogue and i have noticed that my sneak attack is getting min damage.
Talking to other rogues (non halfing) they have been saying their SA damage is bout 90-120ish
ive averaging only 60-90 damage

Ideas??

My feats page says 17D6+12. I believe that includes that includes the +12 from SA training IV, 4d6 from capstone and 3d6 from Assassin III. (10 from 20 Rog lvls)

I also have a +8 item.

That would be a minimum of 37 points of SA damage,
a Maximum of 122.

middle number would be 79.5

Now.... people are probably adding base damage when they tell you their numbers.
Which would bring the average numbers (that people tell you) even higher.
(add on to this "selective memory")

For instance, I usually quote "90ish+" as the average damage per hit my Rogue does. (or something like that)

[TheDearLeader]

Now.... people are probably adding base damage when they tell you their numbers.
Which would bring the average numbers (that people tell you) even higher.
(add on to this "selective memory")

For instance, I usually quote "90ish+" as the average damage per hit my Rogue does. (or something like that)

I could buy this, mainly because the combat log does not differentiate. It adds both weapon damage and sneak damage packets together.

It's funny to get a Crit Smite on my Paladin - I "snuck attack" a helpless Orthon for over 1000 points of damage XD kind of like sneak attacking with a ballista, huh?

[TheDearLeader]

I've made a new video. I decided to put it up early for people to watch, while I do my analysis thereof.

Note - Sneak Damage is still 17d6+23 from previous calculations.

Weapon used -
+5 Light Pick (1d4 + 18 damage)
Calculated
Min = 19
Average =20.5
Max = 22
Observed
Min =19
Max =22

So far, so good. I used a light pick because there is little variation in base damage, and only 5% of hits would result in a critical hit - which meant much less results I had to "throw out".

Helplessness
Main Damage Sneak Damage
70          83
70          84
70          77
71          80
68          80
77          92
71          80
67          72
75          84
77          88
72          88
73          81
69          75
68          78
72          78
70          81
66          69
77          92
69          82
71          83
73          89
78          91
71          82
75          93
77          94
75          91
77          89
69          73
67          71
67          77
70          80

Helplessness
Min = 66
Max = 78

Now, the light pick alone would be expected to produce values between 19(1.5)~22(1.5), which is 28.5~33; I assume the game rounds this down, rather than up, to 28-33.

Obviously, 70 (our first three rolls) is higher than 28~33. So, Sneak Attack much either fully, or in part, affect this number. The difference is somewhere between 37~42 points of extra damage.

Sneak damage on these rolls were 83, 84, 77. Half of these values are 41.5, 42, and 38.5, respectively.

This does make it seem at least possible that 50% extra full sneak attack damage is being added to the first number. The range of values is consistent with this. I sampled a few other numbers in the list, and I didn't find any that deviated from this.

It also seems to deviate from a previous postulation that it was perhaps using only static SA damage values. 1.5(19+23)~1.5(22+23) = Range of 63~67.5, too low to achieve first-damage numbers of 66~78.

Conclusion : Sneak Attack Damage *is* multiplied by 1.5; the extra 50% damage is added to your first damage number. Prior to this addition, the first damage number also has its damage increased by 1.5, as would be expected.

[sephiroth1084]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.I'll make a point to go after helpless mobs on my rogue again as a priority. Under the assumption that the devs run the game as they explain they do (I know, I know), I had been letting all the non-rogue gimps go gun for the helpless stuff while I worked on everything else in stuff like eDA.