Velah - revamp

[painkiller3]

the fight against Velah should be epic...the epic version is not. you may as well be facing a training dummy with a million hit points who shoots flame at you...why not make the fight identical to the fight against Sinvala in Mired in Kobolds, except insert Velah. Fighting bosses that don't move is not fun. Fighting things like Sinvala and Lord of Blades that are mobile is a lot better and more than a clicking exercise.

[Syllph]

agreed fully. It's pretty boring, and the training dummy analogy is dead on. We fight two white dragons in Prey on the Hunter too, it's quite a tough fight. (if you're not cheesing your way through it)

Make her fly, tail buffet, random dragon breath, fire elementals, fire mephits. In Pnp dragons could cast spells too, let her cast some potent spells not just cometfall. Heck, make her able to cast simulacrum!

[-Zephyr-]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

[Belwaar]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

/thread.

[sweez]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

OP, I'm not sure how you do Sinvala but this is the answer you're looking for lol.

[Khurse]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

This.

Pretty much all the boss fights are stupid, but they're going to stay that way while intimidate/threat work the way they do, and if the devs try and change intimidate/threat working the way they do then they'll have upset a decent number of players.

While I agree Velah should do "more", it's still essentially going to be the same fight that all the other ones are,she'll be pinned by one toon with enough aggro/threat to hold her, while her genius (or near genius) level intelligence tells her to ignore the fact that killing the healer keeping that threat alive might be a better idea. Or maybe the 9 or 10 other people beating on her back.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

the fight against Velah should be epic...the epic version is not. you may as well be facing a training dummy with a million hit points who shoots flame at you...why not make the fight identical to the fight against Sinvala in Mired in Kobolds, except insert Velah. Fighting bosses that don't move is not fun. Fighting things like Sinvala and Lord of Blades that are mobile is a lot better and more than a clicking exercise.

100% agreed and this is something that many of us have been asking for years. Fighting a deadly fire trap that warns you before it fires is not very fun or challenging. Buffing her HP (which seems it's the go-to solution of Devs) doesn't make the fight any more epic. It makes it longer and boring. Revamping the whole end room would be fantastic. Make it a bigger room where she can move around, jump and land (with lots of dmg) on players, summon lesser dragons to her aid and so forth. Make it an interesting and somewhat unpredictable fight. And of course scale it down depending on difficulty. But this encounter needs a long-needed overhaul.

[painkiller3]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

i realize that, but shouldn't a fight against a dragon be a little more chaotic? have some anti-tank strategy, like eat any toon who has aggro for more than a minute

[bloodnose13]

i aggree that velah fight is not very epic, idea is good but looking at size of velah, we need a bigger boat...... er instance.

maybe fight with velah should be two part, first part that is placed in that old area where velah is not moveing around, you need to beat down velah to certain point that after it she flys to other floationg rock leaveing you with some creatures to kill, after you kill them shrine and portal appears leading to next area where that mobile part of fight would happen.

[Vanquishedfo]

The reason why is very simple really. Selfish players.

How many here think there is such a thing as a melee only build? From personal experiance most. This type of thinking doesnt even exsit in PnP, it has no direct translation. Any and EVERY DM/GM at the table top knows its thier duty to take any player who hasnt yet learned and teach them the IMPORTANCE of both ranged and melee weapons for thier warrior.

Let me put it this way in that horrible abomination of a film called revenge of the sith didnt you want to biatch slap ewan upside the head when he tried to do the whole " its such an uncivilized weapon" after using a blaster to kill that 4 armed robo lizard that meant nothing to you if you didnt watch that stupid cartoon.

Didnt anyone go " What a frelling moron you are obi wan for failing to see the OBVIOUS TACTICAL ADVANTAGE inherently found in ranged weapons?"

This is why dwarves are awesome thanks to using both battle axes and throwing axes well, this is why every elf should have some bow ability. Because there can, should, and most certainly will come times where running up with a sword is STUPID! Especially against a dragon.

Once in the early days of DDO 3 rangers where found alone against Velah, and through cunning and skill layed her low, thier tactics where deemed an exploit despite being incredibly close to what you would expect from smart dragon hunters in a PnP session. So changes where made and now the only way people want to play this game at least it seems to the Devs, are those who think WOWtard tanking and spanking is what DDo should be like rather then smart AI who you cant use BS exploitive aggro systems to manipulate.

Here is what velah would do in my PnP game if I was DMing.

No mobs expect velah, she flies up the moment the first player arrives through the portal. its a cat and mouse scatter the party scenerio as if more then 2 players stand within 3 feet the walkway will break and fall there. Velah uses dispelling breath on the casters and picks them off first. wing buffest any heavy fighter types off to thier death. Really the only ones with a viable chance in a head on fight against a dragon are grossly powerful casters and clerics who can self heal, warriors skilled in ranged weapons, and thats about it unless they give usa real fly spell. Typically in PnP that is how swordsmen get to cut dragons, flying mounts or flying magic and usually flank attacks while they are trying to eat the god touched clerics first.

[Chai]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

This.

LOB is mobile, but one skilled tank solves that issue.

Id suggest doing something about Shroud part 4 as harry doesnt move from the middle as well, but that idea would get shot down by the plethora of forumites who feel it should be autocomplete tank -n- spank fest minus the tank.

[grodon9999]

I have a great idea . . . stop ****ing with old content and make NEW content that is better?

[Chai]

Here is what velah would do in my PnP game if I was DMing.

No mobs expect velah, she flies up the moment the first player arrives through the portal. its a cat and mouse scatter the party scenerio as if more then 2 players stand within 3 feet the walkway will break and fall there. Velah uses dispelling breath on the casters and picks them off first. wing buffest any heavy fighter types off to thier death. Really the only ones with a viable chance in a head on fight against a dragon are grossly powerful casters and clerics who can self heal, warriors skilled in ranged weapons, and thats about it unless they give usa real fly spell. Typically in PnP that is how swordsmen get to cut dragons, flying mounts or flying magic and usually flank attacks while they are trying to eat the god touched clerics first.

This is how its done on any PW in NWN as well. A full weapon master with dev crit and 62 AB can try to go toe to toe against a dragon and they will get smashed, but one or two bow feats allows you to damage the mob while a summoned monster tanks it and gets initial aggro.

On servers where people powerbuild, the DMs powerbuild the bosses as well. step up with your 90 AC bard/RDD/PM build, and get smacked right back, heh.

[grodon9999]

This.

Pretty much all the boss fights are stupid, but they're going to stay that way while intimidate/threat work the way they do, and if the devs try and change intimidate/threat working the way they do then they'll have upset a decent number of players.

While I agree Velah should do "more", it's still essentially going to be the same fight that all the other ones are,she'll be pinned by one toon with enough aggro/threat to hold her, while her genius (or near genius) level intelligence tells her to ignore the fact that killing the healer keeping that threat alive might be a better idea. Or maybe the 9 or 10 other people beating on her back.

The concept of tanking, heck the whole MMO concept of "DPS - Tank - Heals," is absolutely utterly ********. It is artificial and just plain stupid. it makes no sense at all. Threat generation, intimidation, etc . . it's all artificial garbage that is beyond stupid. I love the term WOWtard because it is so true.

The whole MMO paradigm of raid combat is just dumb, I hope whatever Everquest idiot who thought of it back in the day gets crabs from snookie though he deserves much worse.

But . . . and it's a huge but . . . the game is designed around this concept. Threat control IS the raiding game in DDO. I'd love to see this changed to samething that makes more sense . . . but can this really be done?

[Chai]

I have a great idea . . . stop ****ing with old content and make NEW content that is better?

When whatever minion of Llolths (or even Llolth herself) stands there and ignores 11 people while one person tanks it, we can revisit this topic.

Demi Gods and Pit Fiends who know 2 whole spells and stand in the same place are hilarious. Just once id like to see Harry toss out a few cones of cold or a nasty acid rain.

[Chai]

But . . . and it's a huge but . . . the game is designed around this concept. Threat control IS the raiding game in DDO. I'd love to see this changed to samething that makes more sense . . . but can this really be done?

Who would the boss prioritize?

With the current mechanics that means one of the following:

The boss understands casters and healers are more powerful. A good kiting caster = easy win button.

The boss has random aggro. Step up and you have a chance of getting smacked down regardless of threat. Hilarity will ensue on the forums from everyone who built one trick ponies.

The boss attacks the person inflicting the most damage. Still a threat mechanic but without multipliers due to PRE. Again, a good kiting caster = easy win button.

Another WOWtard® mechanic: Boss tosses out lots and lots of AOE. Even with a tank everyone still takes damage / requires healing etc.

Its a good question - how does one solve this issue?

[Nephilia]

If only the best tactics against mobile bosses was not to make them immobile, then beat them down line they were a big trainning dummy with millions of HPs.

+1 for your analisys sir!

The only difference between velah and other bosses in game is just that i don't need to tank her and use intimidate.

[grodon9999]

Its a good question - how does one solve this issue?

Better AI. But I'm sure if we're there yet technologically speaking.

Or do what Turbine typically does . . . pile on the HP and fortification

[morticianjohn]

I have a great idea . . . stop ****ing with old content and make NEW content that is better?

I agree and want to add my thoughts.

If you do Von 6 every three days for months then velah becomes a boring "not epic" battle. However, if this raid is one of wide variety that you do on occasion you appreciate the varied gameplay. If I want a fight like LoB I go do LoB. As much as people on the forums complain about how boring this fight is those people with ~10 or less completions very likely appreciate the fact that this raid is different.

Also I think one part of the issue is these oversized bosses. Velah is much larger than the dragon in prey on the hunter which I detest fighting because I can't see damage numbers and can't even see my toon half the time because the dragon head is in the way. This is one reason I think LoB is such a huge hit for me.

Summary: leave old content alone, and the differences which you (the op) claim make the raid boring also provide variety for those who haven't run it 10+ times.

[sephiroth1084]

Better AI. But I'm sure if we're there yet technologically speaking.

But what would the better AI do?

What we need is more interaction, bosses who can move us around the battlefield more. Tanking mechanics wouldn't make fights so predictable if tanking didn't mean standing still.