Velah - revamp

[Khurse]

They do love their "go kite this" mechanic to keep someone busy through a raid fight...

To be fair, it's kinda hard for them to find something to do that everyone will (more or less)like.
I would love the expansion raid content to not have a tank n' spank aspect to it, but the outcry from all the players who built tanks would be immense.
I'd love to see some mechanism where the raid boss smacked the living **** out of the support toons (healers/bards/cc/whatever) but those people would be on the forums crying about how unfair it is, and many more would be on the forums complaining about how the newest raid needs *more* casters in order to deal with the damage done by the boss.
I'd like to see a raid boss actually fly/teleport, but again people would point out how this favours casters and ranged toons, and why does turbine hate the melees?

The only thing I can think of that might work, is simply a truly random summoning mechanic.
For example, Lloth could summon elder beholders (I think this would be awesome)/horned devils/pit fiend. Or even a bunch of casters with dispel magic & PWK memmed.
But make it actually random summons, at a random time(not the 'her health is at xxx, prepare for the summons that always happens at this point) as well

[sephiroth1084]

I'm just sick of kiting mechanics. It gets dull real fast, even in places where it requires concentration and a little skill, like ToD 2. But look at our raids (and some quests) so far:
EVoN 6: someone kiting/killing the Claws keeps one person busy and out of the main fight
Chronoscope: someone kiting/killing the devils keeps one or more people busy and out of the main fight in strong groups (weak groups tend to have people break off to help kill the trash)
ToD: kiting/tanking in part 2, kiting/trash killing in part 3
LoB: kiting
Into the Deep: kiting/killing trash during demon fight
there're more
I'm all for providing some variety in the fights, giving people different roles they have to fill, but it stops being variety when too many places rely on it.

[painkiller3]

...

Velah *can't move* for a reason. She won't leave the Dragonshards in the vault (she thinks the information in them is worth dying for), and she can't take them with her.

...

writing the backstory to defend a lackluster boss battle wreaks of deus ex machina. i haven't ran epic velah 100 times like some people here, i just would like it to be the crown jewel of the game...

[grodon9999]

They do love their "go kite this" mechanic to keep someone busy through a raid fight...

Kiting encounters are lame and pathetic, just don't belong in the game any more.

[grodon9999]

To be fair, it's kinda hard for them to find something to do that everyone will (more or less)like.
I would love the expansion raid content to not have a tank n' spank aspect to it, but the outcry from all the players who built tanks would be immense.
I'd love to see some mechanism where the raid boss smacked the living **** out of the support toons (healers/bards/cc/whatever) but those people would be on the forums crying about how unfair it is, and many more would be on the forums complaining about how the newest raid needs *more* casters in order to deal with the damage done by the boss.
I'd like to see a raid boss actually fly/teleport, but again people would point out how this favours casters and ranged toons, and why does turbine hate the melees?

The only thing I can think of that might work, is simply a truly random summoning mechanic.
For example, Lloth could summon elder beholders (I think this would be awesome)/horned devils/pit fiend. Or even a bunch of casters with dispel magic & PWK memmed.
But make it actually random summons, at a random time(not the 'her health is at xxx, prepare for the summons that always happens at this point) as well

I'd like to see all of this, but then please remove the 100s of 1000s of ******** HP.

[grodon9999]

writing the backstory to defend a lackluster boss battle wreaks of deus ex machina. i haven't ran epic velah 100 times like some people here, i just would like it to be the crown jewel of the game...

Why in the name of all that is holy would you want this ancient raid to be the "crown jewel" of the game?

[voodoogroves]

But make it actually random summons, at a random time(not the 'her health is at xxx, prepare for the summons that always happens at this point) as well

I want more randomness in general. We build one sided toons because we metagame the hell out of the content.

More HP isn't challenging, it's just long.

Shroud lieutenants are more fun that the boss fight, period. That's the most interesting part about that quest now. I crave a quest where the end fight is more like that - but tougher mini-bosses (and multiple of them - random).

[DeafeningWhisper]

This! I hope they make the Lloth fight epic and different from all the other previous raids made, something that WILL be unbeaten for weeks, something where a very in depth strat, not just stand in one place, intimidate and the boss will come to you like a puppy coming to his owner.

I dream of an 18 man raid with an anti-ressurrection field spell and having to weaken Lolth until Corellon shows up to kick her ass.

[grodon9999]

I dream of an 18 man raid with an anti-ressurrection field spell and having to weaken Lolth until Corellon shows up to kick her ass.

that sounds pretty cool.

Good end-fights are stuff like "In the Flesh" where there is a dynamic that doesn't involve pure brute force.

What I don't want to ever see is another raid that requires somebody to kite dogs for 40 minutes and 10000 heal-scrolls.

I'd also like the see an "anti-SP pot" mechanic as power-chugging your way through raids is pathetic.

[Hobgoblin]

that sounds pretty cool.

Good end-fights are stuff like "In the Flesh" where there is a dynamic that doesn't involve pure brute force.

What I don't want to ever see is another raid that requires somebody to kite dogs for 40 minutes and 10000 heal-scrolls.

I'd also like the see an "anti-SP pot" mechanic as power-chugging your way through raids is pathetic.

Agreed!

Something i would like is, at least to an extent, is the tod fight, where you have to keep people up or the boss gets hp back.



hob

[karatemack]

Umm... your complaints seem a bit redundant. If you don't like the kite/immobilize boss techniques then simply don't play that way. You want more caster action? Don't take any melee in your party. There isn't just ONE way to complete any quest/raid and most of the complaints in this thread should really be directed towards yourselves as it is YOU (not the devs) who decide how you will play through a quest.

One of the best moments I had in game was when I ran my first AA only Shroud. No one to surround or immobilize Harry, just a bunch of pew pews taking random aggro, each one responsible to take care of their own red bar. It was amazing and ya know what... the devs didn't have the change anything about the Shroud at all for me to enjoy it.

[baletraeger]

I like the idea of splitting the raid group up to accomplish the goal; imaging having to fight multiple bosses (like ToD or MA) while also managing trash who buf/healf the bosses if they get too close and disarming a doomsday device that is based on a popular roadtrip game (i recommend connect4 this time).

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

that sounds pretty cool.

Good end-fights are stuff like "In the Flesh" where there is a dynamic that doesn't involve pure brute force.

What I don't want to ever see is another raid that requires somebody to kite dogs for 40 minutes and 10000 heal-scrolls.

I'd also like the see an "anti-SP pot" mechanic as power-chugging your way through raids is pathetic.

+1 overall. LoB the kiting is just annoying, not challenging (except when the dogs draw random aggro on someone else for no reason). Haste, make a route in the shape of '8' and see ya in 1/2 hour. Kiting the fire reavers in eDeep demon fight exact same mechanic. eLoB has an indirect anti-pot-chugging mechanic with rez timers, but it does need to go further (at least in raid environments) like a 2 minute cooldown on pots + longer rez timers.

[CaptGrim]

You guys seem to be missing the fact that many of those "kiting" raids were not designed to be that way.

I'm almost 100% sure in Lob that it was intended to stop and beat down the dogs when they are spawned/respawned. Creating chaos, movement, off-tanks, etc. The problem is that its just plain easier to kite and ignore them. Only way to stop LoB kiting would be for the dogs to cast chains, or a ranged hamstring, some sort of movement reduction then eat said kiter.

I'll give you ToD part 2 I'm thinking that was the intent, but before it was tanked it required just enough skill that it wasn't quite auto-win.

Not sure of the intent of epic In to the deep, but a mini game I play in there on my caster is to see how long I can go by nuking down the portals before I have to kite, A lot of it depends on DPS and the speed at which the boss dies but I've done it more that once that zero reavers spawn.

My point is that people will take the path of least resistance and many times that path is kiting. Unless you are asking for anti-kiting debuffs to eliminate that as an option, it will remain that way.

[grodon9999]

You guys seem to be missing the fact that many of those "kiting" raids were not designed to be that way.

I'm almost 100% sure in Lob that it was intended to stop and beat down the dogs when they are spawned/respawned. Creating chaos, movement, off-tanks, etc. The problem is that its just plain easier to kite and ignore them. Only way to stop LoB kiting would be for the dogs to cast chains, or a ranged hamstring, some sort of movement reduction then eat said kiter.

Oh come on, they have WAY too many HP for that to even be an option. Even on normal we don't bother beating them down. And the trash at the end? You've got to be kidding me, the designers of the game would have to have far less of an understanding of how this game is played that we joke about for there to be an expectation of NOT kiting this stuff.

I'll give you ToD part 2 I'm thinking that was the intent, but before it was tanked it required just enough skill that it wasn't quite auto-win.

Not sure of the intent of epic In to the deep, but a mini game I play in there on my caster is to see how long I can go by nuking down the portals before I have to kite, A lot of it depends on DPS and the speed at which the boss dies but I've done it more that once that zero reavers spawn.

My point is that people will take the path of least resistance and many times that path is kiting. Unless you are asking for anti-kiting debuffs to eliminate that as an option, it will remain that way.

ToD part 2 yeah, I'm not sure what this intention was but that's where all this siliness started.

I just finger/wail the trash in eDeeps, but kiting is viable.

I'm thinking we just need more trash so there are more jobs in a raid than "tank - DPS - kiter - hjealer." More stuff that needs to be done in an encounter than just beat-down one boss.

WHy the hell would the LOB be fighting by himself anyway if he has an army? Same for any of the other bosses. Why would they be alone?

[CaptGrim]

Oh come on, they have WAY too many HP for that to even be an option. Even on normal we don't bother beating them down. And the trash at the end? You've got to be kidding me, the designers of the game would have to have far less of an understanding of how this game is played that we joke about for there to be an expectation of NOT kiting this stuff.

As for the LoB dogs, I agree that on elite/epic dog HP is redonkulus if the intention was for us to not kite them. That failure on the Devs part does not remove the fact that they most likely were not designed to be ran around in circles for 30 minutes.

The trash??? meh IDK prolly just to have a final charlie foxtrot before winning the encounter.

I'm thinking we just need more trash so there are more jobs in a raid than "tank - DPS - kiter - hjealer." More stuff that needs to be done in an encounter than just beat-down one boss.

Jobs such as what? I'm not being a smart ass just curious as to what else could be needed besides tank like toons to manage aggro while the trash is beat down.

[grodon9999]

Jobs such as what? I'm not being a smart ass just curious as to what else could be needed besides tank like toons to manage aggro while the trash is beat down.

That's a darned good question.

[sirgog]

Oh come on, they have WAY too many HP for that to even be an option. Even on normal we don't bother beating them down. And the trash at the end? You've got to be kidding me, the designers of the game would have to have far less of an understanding of how this game is played that we joke about for there to be an expectation of NOT kiting this stuff.



ToD part 2 yeah, I'm not sure what this intention was but that's where all this siliness started.

I just finger/wail the trash in eDeeps, but kiting is viable.

I'm thinking we just need more trash so there are more jobs in a raid than "tank - DPS - kiter - hjealer." More stuff that needs to be done in an encounter than just beat-down one boss.

WHy the hell would the LOB be fighting by himself anyway if he has an army? Same for any of the other bosses. Why would they be alone?

The dogs don't have many HP on Normal or Hard. They just have too much AC for most people to hit on a 2, so melees are really bad DPS on them. Especially the fools that never turn Power Attack off.

If they didn't get raised so often people would kill them.

VON6 I for one always kill the Claws. If they are dead, less can go wrong in the raid.

As for Into the Deep - you don't see trash at all unless you make a mistake in the final fight. Kiting is then what you do if you stuff up portal killing and you don't have a bard to fascinate it.

[sephiroth1084]

The dogs don't have many HP on Normal or Hard. They just have too much AC for most people to hit on a 2, so melees are really bad DPS on them. Especially the fools that never turn Power Attack off.

If they didn't get raised so often people would kill them.

VON6 I for one always kill the Claws. If they are dead, less can go wrong in the raid.

As for Into the Deep - you don't see trash at all unless you make a mistake in the final fight. Kiting is then what you do if you stuff up portal killing and you don't have a bard to fascinate it.

My point was partly that I'm tired of distraction techniques. That is, superfluous additions to encounters, there because the encounters weren't designed to entertain all 6 or 12 players on their own. Whether you're killing or kiting the Claws, you're still really just being distracted from helping to kill the dragon nearby. The dogs interact with the LoB, and pose a threat in an interesting way, but I wish there were something else to do with them than simply kite them. Hell, most groups I've gone in there with recently don't even bother killing them at the end of the trash phase...they just continue kiting them until it's time to go loot. That's not interesting. That's not fun.

A mechanic in a quest that sees one person doing nothing for 20 minutes but running in figure-eights and healing themselves occasionally isn't all that interesting. Yes, the dogs are interesting because they do force us to deal with them, but not like this.

[baletraeger]

How about the way the Spectral Dragon encounter is set up? If you had a raid where the party was split up handling different tasks that are all connected for success, then customized those tasks to require more party balance so each character can have a meaningful contribution?