An old fashioned dungeon crawl.

[Robert4818]

What do I mean by this?

Well, most dungeons in DDO follow what are generally variations of linear design. These dungeons funnel you forward through the dungeon with very little in the way of exploration.

Even the most complex maps are rather simple.



I want a different style of dungeon that requires a much larger investment of brainpower.
I want an old fashioned dungeon crawl.

With a dungeon crawl map, the concept is to work your way through a very large dungeon. Randomness will be a BIG factor in this type of map.

EDIT 2-14-12: Image Changed to a simpler, home-made version.


You'll notice the map above is broken off into a 3x3 grid, with a large part up top. The part up top would bye your "Entrance" into the rest of the dungeon, which has the big grid pieces arranged in a random order. (This way the 9 tiles are never in the same location). Each tile will have its own boss, its own chests, and its own way of progressing.

Additionally, key items (like crests for doors) will be placed in random rooms in each grid, to prevent full on zerg runs on sections. Each grid will have placement for 100+ traps, but only certain ones will be active on an individual run. (So, again, you don't know where traps will be).

The beginning of the dungeon will have a general merchant, and an Auctioneer for offloading inventories.

You gain XP as you delve for each of the 10 (entry plus 9 grids) you complete. There will be few rest shrines, with the difficulty focusing on preparation and resource management, not necessarily "epic difficulty".

Anyways, its a thought.

What do you guys think?

Edit 2-14-12: The picture above is generated through a pen and paper map generator. Complexity is closer to what I imagine than the old one, but could still be payed with.

[Lord-Vega]

This would only be a bad thing because I would live in it. I'd never go to work, the dog would starve and the cats would go feral. But I'd complete it.

Yea, I'd love something like this. Even if it's not as big as your map.

Cheers,
bt

[Robert4818]

This would only be a bad thing because I would live in it. I'd never go to work, the dog would starve and the cats would go feral. But I'd complete it.

Yea, I'd love something like this. Even if it's not as big as your map.

Cheers,
bt

That map came from a search on "Large Dungeon Maps" its probably too big to be usable, but I liked the 10 pieces of it (3x3 + entry) and figure that would make a great system for the old school dungeon crawl setup.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I like the idea of randomly generated content. It's hard to do though, without it becoming a boring series of tunnels and rooms containing random encounters.

The problem with very big maps is they take a lot of time to complete, and in DDO you can't save your progress in the instance. The dungeon crawl made a lot of more sense in the PNP setting or a game where you can save your progress in an adventure.

The other thing is you need an incentive for people to try this over the other content. Loot, XP, or fun. Loot and fun might attract the Level 20s, and for lower-level characters perhaps optionals giving XP as they go rather than just for completion.

Scale is definitely an issue though, because players will be making a choice between doing a number of shorter quests which may offer more fun/loot/xp per minute. This is not just an issue for power-gamers, but also for people with limited play time.

Perhaps something like small, randomly-generated dungeons could be available in wilderness areas too.

Thanks.

[Robert4818]

Hi,

I like the idea of randomly generated content. It's hard to do though, without it becoming a boring series of tunnels and rooms containing random encounters.

The problem with very big maps is they take a lot of time to complete, and in DDO you can't save your progress in the instance. The dungeon crawl made a lot of more sense in the PNP setting or a game where you can save your progress in an adventure.

The other thing is you need an incentive for people to try this over the other content. Loot, XP, or fun. Loot and fun might attract the Level 20s, and for lower-level characters perhaps optionals giving XP as they go rather than just for completion.

Scale is definitely an issue though, because players will be making a choice between doing a number of shorter quests which may offer more fun/loot/xp per minute. This is not just an issue for power-gamers, but also for people with limited play time.

Perhaps something like small, randomly-generated dungeons could be available in wilderness areas too.

Thanks.

There is XP as you go. Think of each of the 10 pieces (entryway + 3x3 grid) as a nearly separate dungeon. Each piece that is completed gains xp, with the more grids completed in one run earning more xp.

(For example, each piece earns a set amount of xp (say 500xp) each grid piece completed after that on the same run nets base xp * (1+.5/grid piece completed).

So, your first piece nets 500 earned as completed. The second gets 750, 3rd gets 1000, 1250, 1500, etc.

As for the randomness, this isn't a full random dungeon. Instead, its a randomized tile-based dungeon.

The entry way is constant, with only "keys" and "traps" being randomized. The 3x3 grid is randomly made up of 9 different tiles. These are handmade tiles just like the dungeons in the game. They are simply set up so that the 9 tiles (out of however many) are place at random.

For example, consider Entry + 9 out of 26 tiles. You'd have 26 (labeled A-Z) random "dungeons" to choose from that fit in the 3x3 grid. Of those 9 would be chosen.

Entry
ACD
BQR
TSP

Entry
PMN
LOB
SZX

Entry
ABC
DEF
GHI

Entry
ZYX
WVU
STK

Each of these is a completely different dungeon, with each tile having traps and "Keys" randomized.

[blerkington]

There is XP as you go.

... Loot and fun might attract the Level 20s, and for lower-level characters perhaps optionals giving XP as they go rather than just for completion. ...

Hi,

XP as you go, yes, mentioned that. Still some other issues with your idea, but wasn't trying to pour cold water onto it.

Thanks.

[dotHackSign]

There are dungeons similar to that in concept, excluding the random map. For example the depths quests, you can go from one to the other while in the dungeon or skip out and just do a section. I do think this would be interesting as long as the XP matched the time/effort to run the content. This might also keep it fresh a bit longer than "static" dungeons as long as it was implemented well.

[Robert4818]

There are dungeons similar to that in concept, excluding the random map. For example the depths quests, you can go from one to the other while in the dungeon or skip out and just do a section. I do think this would be interesting as long as the XP matched the time/effort to run the content. This might also keep it fresh a bit longer than "static" dungeons as long as it was implemented well.

I agree.

The depths though, suffer from the linearity problem.



As for the time v xp issue, I think there should be a curve. Completing the entry way alone isn't a great time v xp reward, and should be Somewhat zergable (given that its the same map every time). Once beyond that and into the grid, the XP rate should climb, making the XP v time be very rewarding for those who stick in for the long haul.

I do agree that longevity is a major focus of this idea. One thing that adds longevity to it is the fact that its easy to add in new tiles to the rotation. So while this idea may simply start with 9 tiles randomly arranged, the number of tiles can quickly grow as designers play with it.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Sounds a bit like a Challenge. I suppose something like Dr Rushmore's Mansion could be randomized without too much trouble. However, I maintain something truly devious would have to be handcrafted.

[BlackSteel]

that top right block makes me think of the wiz king map

[katana_one]

I could see this working possibly as a slayer-area style map. Lots of opportunity to explore, and like some of the existing slayer areas, there would be quest areas stashed away in hard-to-reach corners (either quests you pick up outside the dungeon, or walk-ups, or both).

[AZgreentea]

I could see this working possibly as a slayer-area style map. Lots of opportunity to explore, and like some of the existing slayer areas, there would be quest areas stashed away in hard-to-reach corners (either quests you pick up outside the dungeon, or walk-ups, or both).

I was thinking this too. The two big problems have already been mentioned, though. You cant save your progress in DDO (something that cause me a lot of anxiety the first few weeks. ). Not everyone has hours and hours to play a single map.

I understand the xp as you go, but there are a lot of players who only get maybe and hour or two of uninterrupted gameplay on a sunday afternoon at the most. I would argue (not being able to see the login info) that a large portion of the paying population only stays logged in for the length of a quest or two (maybe sticking around for a chain) before logging out again. Mix in the difficulty of finding a PUG that could run a map like this all at once, and its just a bit too much. As it is, its already difficult to find a group to complete a whole chain. Take for example the Catacombs. You almost never get to run a 6 man group for that, and most of the LFM's you see are "in progress." Its a fairly long chain with only moderate XP at a low level.

[katana_one]

Just had a thought:

Each "level" of the dungeon can only be accessed by "completing" the previous level. Each map represents a dungeon level, and is treated as a separate slayer area (with it's own level range). Once you reach a certain number of kills, rares, or explorer points (not really sure as this is all off-the-cuff and I have not thought it all out yet), the map is treated as "solved" and you can progress to the next map, which of course, there will be a gateway/stairs/door/whatever that would lead directly to the next map.

If you need to recall, you can come back in later and you would be able to select any map you have already unlocked as your entry point for your current run. So no need to worry about real-life time constraints.

This could still possibly work well with the OP's randomized 3x3 grid.

[Robert4818]

Just had a thought:

Each "level" of the dungeon can only be accessed by "completing" the previous level. Each map represents a dungeon level, and is treated as a separate slayer area (with it's own level range). Once you reach a certain number of kills, rares, or explorer points (not really sure as this is all off-the-cuff and I have not thought it all out yet), the map is treated as "solved" and you can progress to the next map, which of course, there will be a gateway/stairs/door/whatever that would lead directly to the next map.

If you need to recall, you can come back in later and you would be able to select any map you have already unlocked as your entry point for your current run. So no need to worry about real-life time constraints.

I don't want to do that. It brings back the linearity of the dungeon, which is something that DDO has enough of. This is why I like the grid pattern instead. Once you complete an area, you have multiple choices of what to do next, instead of simply a chain of areas.

[katana_one]

I don't want to do that. It brings back the linearity of the dungeon, which is something that DDO has enough of. This is why I like the grid pattern instead. Once you complete an area, you have multiple choices of what to do next, instead of simply a chain of areas.

I don't think so. The maps themselves would still be just as non-linear. I like where you're coming from with this idea, but on a map this big there would need to be some way for casual players with limited play time to save their progress. This was just one suggestion. I also like the other posted suggestion of putting in public areas where it would be safe to log in/out to 'save' your progress.

[Robert4818]

I don't think so. The maps themselves would still be just as non-linear. I like where you're coming from with this idea, but on a map this big there would need to be some way for casual players with limited play time to save their progress. This was just one suggestion. I also like the other posted suggestion of putting in public areas where it would be safe to log in/out to 'save' your progress.

Saving progress isn't part of this idea. (ATM).

There's a few reasons for that. First, the dungeon is random*, meaning that its different every time you go in. So saving layouts for people would eat up storage.

Next, Its quasi xp as you go. So long as you can stand to go in for 1-2 sections then their shouldn't be any incentive NOT to go. Sure you might not complete the entire dungeon, but at the same time you'll get XP for each section you clear (open up exits, beat boss of section) and like any other dungeon, extra bosses and such.

[Ungood]

Next, Its quasi xp as you go. So long as you can stand to go in for 1-2 sections then their shouldn't be any incentive NOT to go. Sure you might not complete the entire dungeon, but at the same time you'll get XP for each section you clear (open up exits, beat boss of section) and like any other dungeon, extra bosses and such.

As others have said, taking one section of the map and making a slayer area out of it may be feasible, but otherwise, just not going to work.

It would not be a good dungeon crawl, in the sense for players to work their way though if you can't save or work your way though it, and it would not make a good instance based dungeon because it's simply too big and convoluted.

At best, a section of this map could be used to build a slayer area.

[CheeseMilk]

I'm hoping for an area along these lines in the Underdark.

I want something that could take DAYS to get though, if you wanted. Something full of puzzles and random traps and hidden doors and funky badguys and awesome treasure. Basically, I want Undermountain.

With "Public" areas every so often so that I can "save my game."

[Xenostrata]

I think what you might be looking for is New Invasion, except on a much larger scale (and probably a different dunegon skin).

If this is the case, I totally agree; New Invasion remains one of my favorite quests in the game.

[die]

I give my stamp of Doom on this Thread ,

I love the idea.

I always wanted a good Crawl like Castle Ravenloft