Imp. Evasion or Opportunist at 10?

[Amorenkaire]

As the title says, what should be the first rogue special ability to select for this dex rogue?

[Spoonwelder]

Improved Evasion - staying alive is more important than a minor increase in DPS.

Also around this level more and more of the trap boxes are on the other side of traps so that part of your job almost makes it a requirement. Think VoN5 Elite without improved evasion - you are dead without a save and probably have to wait out death penalties to continue the trap clearing.

[Munkenmo]

how goods your reflex save?

if you're only failing reflex saves on a 1 improved evasion is hardly that good to you, so i'd go opportunist first.

[sweez]

how goods your reflex save?

if you're only failing reflex saves on a 1 improved evasion is hardly that good to you, so i'd go opportunist first.

What he said. The better your reflex save is, the less you need improved evasion.

[destiny4405]

if you're doing quests on elite then IE.

[MRMechMan]

Imp Evasion is really hard to justify passing up-perhaps if you are primarily running normal and hard quests and have a fantastic reflex save.

If you either don't have a great reflex save OR are running elites (even with great reflex save), take it.

[Monkeytoe]

how goods your reflex save?

if you're only failing reflex saves on a 1 improved evasion is hardly that good to you...

VoN 5 starts at 10th lvl. The saves for the spinning blade traps start at 30 and scale up for H and E. They hit for about 200 points.

Not only do you have to take into account whether you've got "fail on a 1" reflexes but how many of those failures you can sustain gracefully.

I'd take Improved Evasion, but then... my dice suck, and I hate dying to traps.

[Munkenmo]

VoN 5 starts at 10th lvl. The saves for the spinning blade traps start at 30 and scale up for H and E. They hit for about 200 points.

Not only do you have to take into account whether you've got "fail on a 1" reflexes but how many of those failures you can sustain gracefully.

I'd take Improved Evasion, but then... my dice suck, and I hate dying to traps.

i read the part where he said he was a dex based rogue, so if he can sustain failures for 19/20 rolls then what's the point in improved evasion?

Everyone here is only pointing towards von 5 as the quest to take improved evasion for,

seems to me like the answer is even more obvious, if your not planning on running that cause getting groups for shadowcrypt, von 3, claw of vulkoor and fathom the depths is easier then take opportunist.

[cdr]

I always take Improved Evasion first. I play pretty much exclusively on elite, and often solo, so I value survivability while leveling more than a smidge of additional DPS.

I do have a 12/6/2 build that I've been working on where having to choose between Improved Evasion and Opportunist is killing me, but it's probably rare that you have to choose.

[wax_on_wax_off]

how goods your reflex save?

if you're only failing reflex saves on a 1 improved evasion is hardly that good to you, so i'd go opportunist first.

Dying 5% of the time that I go through a trap is too much for me. I experienced this in Titan elite at level with the cannons. Improved Evasion would have saved me a few times in there even though I only fail trap saves on a 1.

Opportunist doesn't give a noticeable improvement except in raids. I'd honestly consider going for skill mastery before opportunist.

[Mrphish]

i just hit level 10 yesterday on my rogue TR and grabbed it because i was noticeing that i'd either die to quite a few traps or be too close to death for my personal comfort, so i took it... definately noticeable difference, since then i think i've gotten hit by elite traps... maybe twice? then again my reflex is pretty bad (only in the 18 to 20 range with full party/ship buffs... really should get a dex item.)

i agree with the above poster that skill mastery at this level would be much more useful early on then opportunist would, more umd is always handy(or whatever skill you want to bump).

tbh im not entirely sure it would matter if all your running is normal/hard... i wouldn't say it would be needed in those difficulty's too much (except maybe for cruicble... that one can be a pain at any setting.) so look at your build and the type of content you prefer to play in and then make your decision.

phish.

[Spoonwelder]

i read the part where he said he was a dex based rogue, so if he can sustain failures for 19/20 rolls then what's the point in improved evasion?

Everyone here is only pointing towards von 5 as the quest to take improved evasion for,

seems to me like the answer is even more obvious, if your not planning on running that cause getting groups for shadowcrypt, von 3, claw of vulkoor and fathom the depths is easier then take opportunist.

Non-dex vs. Dex rogue is likely a difference of 4 Dex (2 lower starting point 2 for level ups) or 2 on the reflex save

Even a Dex based rogue - Say at L10 is maybe 30 (18+2lvlups+6item+2tome+2ship) is +10 reflx
- +7 base = 17
add GH +4,
resist item +4,
Rogue bonuses+3
....
you are at 28.

Failing on a 2 in VoN 5 or any other DC 30 trap. I am giving alot in respect to gear here to so most likely it's fail on a 5+. I ignored uncanny dodge - not always on - not always remembered - limited uses so.....unless you are just running past traps it's not reliable enough to count on.

Evasion is only save for zero, fail you take full damage.....Imp. Evasion is save for zero, fail for 1/2 damage. The difference is massive when you may fail 10-25% of the time even when you fail on a 1 you still only take 1/2 damage - this is a massive improvement over the ~3.1% minor DPS gained from opportunist.

Dead rogues do no damage.

[Amorenkaire]

Yeah, I decided upon going with Improved Evasion after being reminded of Vault of Night... That trap hallway run still gives me nightmares from my old rogue. *Shiver*

That being said, rogue is now level 11! Going to get the last rare encounter in Red Fens and then start farming for a Minos... Might hit up VoN after that.

[Munkenmo]

Non-dex vs. Dex rogue is likely a difference of 4 Dex (2 lower starting point 2 for level ups) or 2 on the reflex save

I am giving alot in respect to gear here to so most likely it's fail on a 5+. I ignored uncanny dodge - not always on - not always remembered - limited uses so.....unless you are just running past traps it's not reliable enough to count on.

Evasion is only save for zero, fail you take full damage.....Imp. Evasion is save for zero, fail for 1/2 damage. The difference is massive when you may fail 10-25% of the time even when you fail on a 1 you still only take 1/2 damage - this is a massive improvement over the ~3.1% minor DPS gained from opportunist.

Dead rogues do no damage.

Thankyou for your view point. Also thank you for managing to explain the difference between evasion and improved evasion, my posts in this thread clearly indicated that I wasn't aware of the difference.

The difference between a dex rogue and an int or str level 10 rogue is likely to be 7 dex

15dex +2 tome = non dex for twf feats = 17
18dex +2 levels + 2 tome +2 enhancement = 24 (+6 item, +2 ship buff = 32)

break down of a dex based rogues reflex save

7 base
11 dex bonus
3 rogue trap sense
1 goodluck (voice)
1 ship buff (profane)
6 reflex item (superior stability)
4 gh
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... you are at 33.
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Improved trap sense 6 (2 per tier, 3 tiers available at this point)
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up to 39 sustainable trap saves at level 10
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6 improved uncanny dodge.
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45

The gear i've assumed could be considered high expectations, though superior stability is a very good choice on a dex based rogue, as they'll have remarkable saves, and decent ac, the +6 to both will be a nice help.

I've not factored in guild slots, paladin auras, or monk finishers, but if i needed to i'm sure i could figure out a way to get 50reflex saves at level 10, 39-45 is sufficient enough though i feel.

A rogue with 33+ to his reflex saves is only going to fail on a 1 to spells, with 39+ to traps he's only going to fail them on a 1 aswel. There's one quest, with 1 corridor where this is troublesome. You spend a lot more time killing trash than you do disabling traps in von 5 north. That is why to me, opportunist is better, because whilst you may skip von 5 entirely, you do not skip trash entirely.

People in this thread are constantly saying a dead rogue can't do X, no kididng. But a dex rogue is only going to fail saves on a 1, even an average rogue isn't going to die based on 1 save, given the fact this guy posts on the forums, it's safe to assume he's not dumped hp.

There's a lot of bias in this thread, obviously, but to me it's the fact that he said Dex Rogue in the op that makes improved evasion useless 95% of the time if built moderately well.

No matter which feat you choose, level 13, doesn't take long and you'll undoubtedly take the other then, but as a dex based rogue relies on SA for most of their damage, it's definately going to be a faster journey with opportunist asap.

[Dartwick]

Talk about a minor decision.

[JOTMON]

Rogue going through trap to get to trap box and picking up the Barbarians soulstone on the way while taking little or no damage is a happy rogue that goes on to do buffed damage against mobs.
Dead Rogue loses all the ship/other uber buffs is a unhappy rogue and gets the nickname 'minus' for the -10%xp.



Improved Evasion.
You can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. When you attempt a Reflex save against an effect that normally does half damage when saved against, you suffer no damage if you successfully save and half damage even if you fail.

Opportunist
A Rogue with this ability gains a 3% chance to double strike with melee weapons and bypasses 10% fortification.

[Spoonwelder]

Thankyou for your view point. Also thank you for managing to explain the difference between evasion and improved evasion, my posts in this thread clearly indicated that I wasn't aware of the difference. -you aren't the only audience for the thread - it hadn't been stated yet in the thread so best to put the knowledge there were it may be referenced in context

The difference between a dex rogue and an int or str level 10 rogue is likely to be 7 dex

15dex +2 tome = non dex for twf feats = 17 - I'd argue the starting dex and enhancements depending upon if it is a first life (tome/plat availability) 28pt vs. 32pt build etc....
18dex +2 levels + 2 tome +2 enhancement = 24 (+6 item, +2 ship buff = 32)-I'd also argue that not every L10 rogue has someone to make the ML9 +6stat items - there is one or two guys in my guild who can but i rarely bother them since I will have my +6 items soon enough

break down of a dex based rogues reflex save

7 base
11 dex bonus - arguably my 10 dex bonus is more realistic
3 rogue trap sense
1 goodluck (voice) - missed that good catch
1 ship buff (profane) - missed that good catch
6 reflex item (superior stability)- - again not everyone has this - sometimes due to alignment choice, sometimes due to lack of access to crafting - sometimes they just don't even know it's an option - most likely is a +3 or +4 resist item
4 gh - I included this as well but there is no guarantee you will always have this as a rogue (especially if you die in a trap +2 is probably more realistic from a pot.
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... you are at 33.-arguably the average rogue is 3-5pts lower and thus saves 15-25% less often
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Improved trap sense 6 (2 per tier, 3 tiers available at this point) - 6AP???? what are you gutting to get this at 40AP total at this point - 4 is more likely for 3 AP
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up to 39 sustainable trap saves at level 10 - arguably 32-34 which still may be enough to support your argument but.....my point is still your number is inflated and assumes a near perfect gear/stat/skill/enhancement setup just for traps
-----------
6 improved uncanny dodge.- for 30 seconds ie. find and disable about 2 traps-not sustainable in all quests - yes I'd use it up in VoN5 but there are many instance where you wouldn't have it always on
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45

The gear i've assumed could be considered high expectations, though superior stability is a very good choice on a dex based rogue, as they'll have remarkable saves, and decent ac, the +6 to both will be a nice help. - agreed as noted

I've not factored in guild slots, paladin auras, or monk finishers, but if i needed to i'm sure i could figure out a way to get 50reflex saves at level 10, 39-45 is sufficient enough though i feel.

A rogue with 33+ to his reflex saves is only going to fail on a 1 to spells, with 39+ to traps he's only going to fail them on a 1 aswel. There's one quest, with 1 corridor where this is troublesome. You spend a lot more time killing trash than you do disabling traps in von 5 north. That is why to me, opportunist is better, because whilst you may skip von 5 entirely, you do not skip trash entirely. - VoN5 is just a benchmark...from L10-13 there are alot of quests with casters and traps that I would much rather survive through - yes there is alot of trash too but the 3.1% increase in DPS just isn't sufficient to me to offset the 5% higher risk of death(base solely on not saving for 1/2 damage) - you feel it's a fair trade off - I think most people will disagree

People in this thread are constantly saying a dead rogue can't do X, no kididng. But a dex rogue is only going to fail saves on a 1, even an average rogue isn't going to die based on 1 save, given the fact this guy posts on the forums, it's safe to assume he's not dumped hp. - I assume nothing

There's a lot of bias in this thread, obviously, but to me it's the fact that he said Dex Rogue in the op that makes improved evasion useless 95% of the time if built moderately well.

No matter which feat you choose, level 13, doesn't take long and you'll undoubtedly take the other then, but as a dex based rogue relies on SA for most of their damage, it's definately going to be a faster journey with opportunist asap. -this is the main issue - for that 3 level gap since I would say opportunist is feat #2 in the list to take and I can only hope you will say Imp. Evasion is #2 in your book - I am biased to evasion because I see it help so often where double strike is less visible an improvement doing 309 dmg vs. 300 dmg to a boss in a fight is a matter of 1/5-1/10th of one more swing - dying in a trap or spell is immensely more visible

comments in red.....also a story

I had a ranger/rogue 10/2 split in VoN5 not a dex build but decent overall- probably barely above average gear from handme downs - only has a walking around Reflex save of 23 GH from spell would get me to 27- I ended up having to do the traps in VoN5 on elite because the rogue blew a trap then died in the related blades and threw a hissy fit on us and dropped.

So there I was taking over the rogue role and I was sweating my balls off trying make perfect jumps to minimize the number of saves and think through every trap to make sure I had the right gear on at each step (gloves for dex saves then gloves for disable - goggles for search then goggles for Int) hit skill boost search and disarm.....

At that point I decided to take Imp. Evasion as soon as you ever get the chance on a rogue - there is no reason to have to stress that much in a game (I also decided to make sure any rogue I built could get the traps in VoN5 on elite at L10 as my measuring stick - it is a good measuring stick and keeps 11 people from hating you).

Being perfect isn't my strong suit. Maybe it is for you but....that's why you are teh Uber and don't need Imp. Evasion and I am not.

[Melt-emi]

Dying 5% of the time that I go through a trap is too much for me. I experienced this in Titan elite at level with the cannons. Improved Evasion would have saved me a few times in there even though I only fail trap saves on a 1.

Opportunist doesn't give a noticeable improvement except in raids. I'd honestly consider going for skill mastery before opportunist.

This is totally correct imo, take skill mastery first (when traps are not deadly on 1s yet), then improved evasion as second. Opportunist as one of the last, if not the last itself.

You may even want to consider going as mechanic till mid teens (lvl 14-15) even more if you run often on elite and your party is only expecting you to be a "trap monkey" and respec later into assassin or whatever else. It makes it easier if you are at your first life and maybe missing some gear.

[Amorenkaire]

I luckily have some pretty good trap gear (+7 spot goggles/+10 search/+10 DD) with a healthy supply of +5 tools from the AH. And, up until I did Haywire Foundry on elite, he never had a box blow up in his face. /: (Should have made them cast GH on me!).

I'm also not regretting improved evasion, now. VoN 5 elite run (not a trap blown!), and even with Imp. Evasion the darn spinning blade traps still killed me once. But that was the only time I died!

[Spoonwelder]

The blade traps in VoN5 can be tricky but you should be able to get around them with very few saves rolls if you jump well and land in the safe corners. With practice it will be second nature but you will have to make the occasional save roll and that's when we love our evasion.