Tenser's transformation

[kingfisher]

The point is, most competent players are already maxing UMD for other reasons, so yes, for the sake of Tenser's they are getting a benefit for a skill they needed to max anyway.

you invest in umd to use scrolls etc. tensors is a scroll. therefore the investment is there already and they get nothing from it. point is melee arcanes need the boosts to str/con so it needs to stack, and it wont make dps'rs with umd op because they are far behind casters as it is.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

you invest in umd to use scrolls etc. tensors is a scroll. therefore the investment is there already and they get nothing from it. point is melee arcanes need the boosts to str/con so it needs to stack, and it wont make dps'rs with umd op because they are far behind casters as it is.

What they need to do is to balance the game correctly, instead of adding crutches like stacking bonuses.

I say this as someone who primarily plays casters, if they want balance, they NEED to take away "freebie" SLAs ASAP. I could not believe how much DPS I was doing with my inherent Niac's until about lvl 17 (that mobs get decent saves and cold resistance). I mean in the 1000s (I remember hitting a stoned fire giant in Tor for 2140 with freebie Niacs) at lvl 15. That's just unfair to any other class, even to Wizards. If they either removed the freebie-ness of the SLAs (perhaps add the cost of metamagics) or make the SLAs double timer it would help bring a little more parity to melee v caster DPS. Mind you the casters will always have much higher burst DPS, but it will even out long term if mana becomes an issue (due to non-free SLAs). Another step they can take is to have a SP ladder for DoTs. Something like: 1st tick full cost, 2 tick 1/4 cost, 3rd tick 1/8 of cost. The when you cast it a second time on same target, 1st tick costs 1.5 times SP, 2nd tick 1 time (base cost), 3rd tick 1/2 and then third stacking cast goes to 2x base SP cost for 1st tick, 1.5 2nd tick and 1x third tick. That way casters don't get "free" DPS.

[ArcaneMelee]

What they need to do is to balance the game correctly, instead of adding crutches like stacking bonuses.

I say this as someone who primarily plays casters, if they want balance, they NEED to take away "freebie" SLAs ASAP...

As someone who used to enjoy playing casters back in the day when SP management was the name of the game, I agree with you. Kinda.

I think taking away the free metamagics would be better than taking away the SLAs.

[Ungood]

Most DPS builds (not all I reckon), already splash 2Rog. They already strive to get as close as possible to Heal scroll range for self-sustenance/emergency heal -- which in itself is mindbloging to think of a PnP Barbarian self-healing. The point is, most competent players are already maxing UMD for other reasons, so yes, for the sake of Tenser's they are getting a benefit for a skill they needed to max anyway.

Given how Tensers would kill their ability to self heal after cast (IE: They can't use scrolls to heal anymore) as well as remove all other click abilities, Divine Power would still remain the preferred spell over Tensers for any UMD class. The only classes/builds in the game that would get a benefit is non-UMD builds, that do not depend on their own spell like abilities. IE: Pure Barbs, or Fighters, that decided to not sacrifice DPS for the sake of UMD gear and put their one skill point into Intimidate.

I believe that just making Tensers a short duration spell, like Divine Power, or Zeal, etc, would be the better solution, that way it could be used as it was intended, as a short burst combat based spell for arcane classes.

[EllisDee37]

I believe that just making Tensers a short duration spell, like Divine Power, or Zeal, etc, would be the better solution

It is already the same duration as DP and Zeal.

[Zzevel]

Can you imagine the outcry and gnashing of teeth if arcanes were allowed to be competitive in melee?

Why would you want the drop in DPS in your group? You would see a rise of the I will play DDO my way! "Battlemage" players.. We already have thoes gimpy "Battleclerics" :P do we really need to encouragen this? LOL!

/sarcasm

[Melt-emi]

/NOTsigned

What they need to do is to balance the game correctly, instead of adding crutches like stacking bonuses.

I say this as someone who primarily plays casters, if they want balance, they NEED to take away "freebie" SLAs ASAP. I could not believe how much DPS I was doing with my inherent Niac's until about lvl 17 (that mobs get decent saves and cold resistance). I mean in the 1000s (I remember hitting a stoned fire giant in Tor for 2140 with freebie Niacs) at lvl 15. That's just unfair to any other class, even to Wizards. If they either removed the freebie-ness of the SLAs (perhaps add the cost of metamagics) or make the SLAs double timer it would help bring a little more parity to melee v caster DPS. Mind you the casters will always have much higher burst DPS, but it will even out long term if mana becomes an issue (due to non-free SLAs). Another step they can take is to have a SP ladder for DoTs. Something like: 1st tick full cost, 2 tick 1/4 cost, 3rd tick 1/8 of cost. The when you cast it a second time on same target, 1st tick costs 1.5 times SP, 2nd tick 1 time (base cost), 3rd tick 1/2 and then third stacking cast goes to 2x base SP cost for 1st tick, 1.5 2nd tick and 1x third tick. That way casters don't get "free" DPS.

+1

[Aesop]

bah just make it the highest of the Casting Stats (Int or Cha) becomes your attack and damage modifier

you gain 5hp per caster level

a bonus to AC

A bonus to Fort saves

Martial and Simple Weapons

and

Character level equals BAB

and call it a day

Aesop

[Ungood]

Here is what they could do with Tensers to really make it fun.

Keep the BAB equal your Level
Remove Casting Ability
Provides Heavy Fort
+1 Damage/every 2 Caster Level (Stacking)
+5HP/caster level (Aesop's idea, which I like)

Provides the Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical Blunt & Slash.

This would make it far more a fun spell for all the arcanes that already duel wield scepters / daggers / what have you.

[Chai]

Here is what they could do with Tensers to really make it fun.

Keep the BAB equal your Level
Remove Casting Ability
Provides Heavy Fort
+1 Damage/every 2 Caster Level (Stacking)
+5HP/caster level (Aesop's idea, which I like)

Provides the Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical Blunt & Slash.

This would make it far more a fun spell for all the arcanes that already duel wield scepters / daggers / what have you.

I like it save for the +5 hp / caster level. There are already 600 HP casters and this game completely distorts the HP ratio between casters and melee which is (supposed to be) one of the balancing factors. When some fighters have less HP than toaster liches, and the ones that have more dont really have that much more, the last thing we need to do is give casters more HP.

Id like to see tensers made useful. The other stuff suggested seems to be right on.

bah just make it the highest of the Casting Stats (Int or Cha) becomes your attack and damage modifier

This would be overpowering in the current game. Mana is supposed to be one of the balancing factors in caster power. Most casters dont run out, but in the offchance that they do, due to poor management for instance, making int or cha their melee stat is basically allowing them to transform into a melee DPS machine on top of having the best DCs and spell damage in the game.

I like the scenario where someone has to sacrifice one thing to build for another. If people want to build something like a Tukaw, then buff it up and go into tensers and do significant melee damage, thats an excellent option, but they sacrifice DCs and some spell damage to do so. They can still do significant spell damage, just not the same as a fully maxed out caster stat build would, but they have melee to augment their spell damage, which the maxed out caster stat build does not.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I like it save for the +5 hp / caster level. There are already 600 HP casters and this game completely distorts the HP ratio between casters and melee which is (supposed to be) one of the balancing factors. When some fighters have less HP than toaster liches, and the ones that have more dont really have that much more, the last thing we need to do is give casters more HP.
.

IIRC, casters in PnP needed to pump up their DEX in order to to hit mobs with most ray spells. In DDO is Mind Ability +CON all else being pretty much dump stats.

[Machination]

I remember using this spell the day it came out.....once......and thinking it needed an overhaul. When was the last time you saw somebody actually use it in a quest other than to look silly?

If we had no SLAs it might see use as the backup it was meant to be. As it stands though, carrying wands of various damage spells is likely to do more for you. And with the divine powers coming in clickie for, the spell is entirely sidelined into the useless category. It definitly needs work. Fortunately, Eladrin agreed that it needs an overhaul.... we just don't know where it is in the priority list (likely very low)

[Ungood]

I like it save for the +5 hp / caster level. There are already 600 HP casters and this game completely distorts the HP ratio between casters and melee which is (supposed to be) one of the balancing factors. When some fighters have less HP than toaster liches, and the ones that have more dont really have that much more, the last thing we need to do is give casters more HP.

Id like to see tensers made useful. The other stuff suggested seems to be right on.

Fair enough, the extra HP was just to revise the way the con bonus applies, to give HP as opposed to a + to con, but, perhaps the HP is not a good idea anyway, that could kill many arcane when it wore off, loosing 100 HP even at 20th when a spell wears off, especially with not being able to self heal via scrolls, wands or spells, could be a better killer then most mobs.

[Voldomar]

IIRC, casters in PnP needed to pump up their DEX in order to to hit mobs with most ray spells..

/off topic
No they don't. They don't need to.
Ray spell are mostly ranged touch attacks ( No armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus vs these attacks) and casters have plenty of way to buff themselves just to make sure they hit when they need to

[Aesop]

This would be overpowering in the current game. Mana is supposed to be one of the balancing factors in caster power. Most casters dont run out, but in the offchance that they do, due to poor management for instance, making int or cha their melee stat is basically allowing them to transform into a melee DPS machine on top of having the best DCs and spell damage in the game.

I like the scenario where someone has to sacrifice one thing to build for another. If people want to build something like a Tukaw, then buff it up and go into tensers and do significant melee damage, thats an excellent option, but they sacrifice DCs and some spell damage to do so. They can still do significant spell damage, just not the same as a fully maxed out caster stat build would, but they have melee to augment their spell damage, which the maxed out caster stat build does not.

Casting stats don't have the full range of buffs that melee stats do and casters that aren't dedicated to combat won't have the feats to be even close to effective combatants. This would only really let them actually hit and do a bit of damage to the target while in this form that still wouldn't allow for casting.

Just pointing that out not really saying that you are necessarily wrong just that if the spell doesn't accomplish what it's intended to do ... ie turn the caster into a passable melee... then it will still be pretty pointless.

Additionally you generally want the spell to actually be cast instead of just scrolled so you will probably want to make it a progressive effect, improving with the higher caster level.

It needs to be effective, not overpowered on its own and not a detriment to the person it is cast upon. It is currently nigh useless or worse. A Divine Spell 2 levels lower is more effective at the primary function of the spell and less punishing.

As for use of Bonus Types...

Sacred and Profane are Divine Bonus Types and shouldn't be part of an Arcane Spell
Morale Bonuses are the domain of Bards and are common and thus don't stack and thus become less useful.
Enhancement Bonuses are likewise common and thus become less useful

Competence Bonuses I think would be most useful overall.

Perhaps drop the Stat Bonuses altogether and go with a series of progressive bonuses.

You'd have your static bonus of BAB = Character Level
You'd have another static bonus of Martial and Simple Weapon Prof
You'd have your static penalty of Casting Level reduced to Zero

So that's the core effect; from there you have the other bonuses.

You are looking at improved survivability and increased physical offensive ability.

So at caster level 11 we could go with

+1 to hit and damage
+1 Fort Save
+1 Natural Armor

and either a DR or Mitigation Bonus

Then increase these bonuses by a like amount every 2-3 Caster levels beyond 11. A 20th level caster will thus be better with this spell than a rogue UMDing it from a scroll.

All of the bonuses being competence will stack nicely with the bulk of other buffs and really as this spell is supposed to grant combat competence I think its rather appropriate as the bonus type.

Aesop

[Ungood]

Is AC worth it for a caster?

Just wondering on this, can or do Arcane builds get the AC needed to make AC viable for them?

[Aesop]

Is AC worth it for a caster?

Just wondering on this, can or do Arcane builds get the AC needed to make AC viable for them?

It is "possible" though building for AC on a Caster may not be a strong option.

That's kinda why I was thinking of for Defensive options a mitigation or DR effect... Mitigation as a stacking benefit would likely be better and a replacement for extra HPs.

Aesop

[Chai]

Casting stats don't have the full range of buffs that melee stats do and casters that aren't dedicated to combat won't have the feats to be even close to effective combatants. This would only really let them actually hit and do a bit of damage to the target while in this form that still wouldn't allow for casting.

Just pointing that out not really saying that you are necessarily wrong just that if the spell doesn't accomplish what it's intended to do ... ie turn the caster into a passable melee... then it will still be pretty pointless.

Additionally you generally want the spell to actually be cast instead of just scrolled so you will probably want to make it a progressive effect, improving with the higher caster level.

It needs to be effective, not overpowered on its own and not a detriment to the person it is cast upon. It is currently nigh useless or worse. A Divine Spell 2 levels lower is more effective at the primary function of the spell and less punishing.

As for use of Bonus Types...

Sacred and Profane are Divine Bonus Types and shouldn't be part of an Arcane Spell
Morale Bonuses are the domain of Bards and are common and thus don't stack and thus become less useful.
Enhancement Bonuses are likewise common and thus become less useful

Competence Bonuses I think would be most useful overall.

Perhaps drop the Stat Bonuses altogether and go with a series of progressive bonuses.

You'd have your static bonus of BAB = Character Level
You'd have another static bonus of Martial and Simple Weapon Prof
You'd have your static penalty of Casting Level reduced to Zero

So that's the core effect; from there you have the other bonuses.

You are looking at improved survivability and increased physical offensive ability.

So at caster level 11 we could go with

+1 to hit and damage
+1 Fort Save
+1 Natural Armor

and either a DR or Mitigation Bonus

Then increase these bonuses by a like amount every 2-3 Caster levels beyond 11. A 20th level caster will thus be better with this spell than a rogue UMDing it from a scroll.

All of the bonuses being competence will stack nicely with the bulk of other buffs and really as this spell is supposed to grant combat competence I think its rather appropriate as the bonus type.

Aesop

That I am fine with. What I dont think is a good idea is turning int or cha into the to-hit and damage stat. This gives casters the ability to build for DCs and offensive casting and when they are out of mana gives them the ability to become a passable fighter.

Its already easy enough to make it from shrine to shrine, but if someone is not managing their mana to the point where they are doing so, they now have an out by changing themselves into a passable melee.

Instead, allow tensers as you described, but dont make int or cha the to-hit / damage stat. Casters who want to build to be able to melee will have to stack strength which will require sacrificing DC spells. DOTs + melee is still a heck of a build. DOTs + DCs is still a heck of a build. DOTs + DCs + melee is just giving casters, which are already at the top of the power ladder, too much. Make them make the choice. Both choices are still crazy powerful.

[Chai]

Is AC worth it for a caster?

Just wondering on this, can or do Arcane builds get the AC needed to make AC viable for them?

They could if it was made worth their while. The way monk works in this game any splash who remotely paid attention to wisdom could stack up viable AC.

[Aesop]

That I am fine with. What I dont think is a good idea is turning int or cha into the to-hit and damage stat. This gives casters the ability to build for DCs and offensive casting and when they are out of mana gives them the ability to become a passable fighter.

Its already easy enough to make it from shrine to shrine, but if someone is not managing their mana to the point where they are doing so, they now have an out by changing themselves into a passable melee.

Instead, allow tensers as you described, but dont make int or cha the to-hit / damage stat. Casters who want to build to be able to melee will have to stack strength which will require sacrificing DC spells. DOTs + melee is still a heck of a build. DOTs + DCs is still a heck of a build. DOTs + DCs + melee is just giving casters, which are already at the top of the power ladder, too much. Make them make the choice. Both choices are still crazy powerful.

Honestly I don't think this spell will be used by definite casters anyway. Echoes of Power means they will still have SP to burn when they completely run out and that little bit of extra sp will still equal more DPS than them meleeing unless they actually build for it... even then it would be close.

However... I was just throwing things out there and seeing what sticks. I am not attached to any of the ideas overall and will happily toss another out if someone thinks one is too "something" or another

Aesop