Speak english your in a english country!!

[MRMechMan]

Honestly suprised it took that many posts before someone called you out on the your vs you're mistake, especially considering the topic of the thread...

[LordMond63]

I'm one of those monolingual Americans.

Took a stab at German back in high school and learned enough to get my face slapped. Oh...and find the bathroom.

My daughter is a freshman in high school this year and I was equal parts surprised and gratified to learn that she has to take at least a couple of years of a foreign language (she chose French) in order to get her advanced academic diploma and that she had several (Spanish, French, German, Latin and, I think, Chinese- which might prove to be a better choice) to select from.

But bear in mind that the requirement is for an advanced diploma, not a mainstream one. As was the case 30 years ago when I was in high school, the remedial English classes are full to overflowing, not just of immigrants for which English is a second language but for citizens for which English is, essentially, a second language. I'm not sure whi deserves more of the blame for this- the parents or the government (at all levels) -but it is apparent that the public school system here in the United States is, all too often, failing the kids.

[sebastianosmith]

pretty bad latin, did you used an online traductor?

One must make allowances for drift. Classic Latin would be almost indecipherable for a modern audience. And it's not bad - Simply verbose when compared to what would be considered colloquial. I did at least include the correct punctuative. And "traductor", really? Don't mistake romantic derivations for original language or I'll be forced to break out my limited Romanian, înţelege?

[Antheal]

Talk proper like what I do.

If you're a fan of Harry Potter, you should have told him to go **** himself. In Parseltounge.

[Saaluta]

A lot of the myths about people are stupid.

A lot of people are stupid.

The cycle repeats.

FTFY

Saal

[bigolbear]

What do you call a person that speaks 2 languages? Bilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks 3 languages? Trilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks 1 language? American.

and they cant even speak that properly! im english btw if you hadnt guessed.

I feel for ya man, you are in a multilanguage country - the guy was clearly a prat, bad case of passive drinking.


Now i KNOW im gona get flack for this but here goes any ways......

First off let me say this: 1 im mixed race(but you wouldnt know it to look at me), 2 I have freinds and family from various ethnic origns. (all of whom are not relevant to my points below - they are british, in culture, in language, in outlook)

Im all for peace and love and tolerance and social intergration but...It can go too far.
Im english, im from a city called leicester. You may have heard of it you may not. Leicester has the highest concentration of non native population in the country. There is no such thing as an ethnic minority here - because they are not in the minority.

Now I couldnt give a **** what colour some ones skin is, where they are from and I couldnt give a **** what religion they are provided they dont try and impose their cultural ideas, language and 'religious laws' on me.

But unfortunately that is exactly what is happening here. Despite the fact i was born in this country, speak the native language fluently (and several others semi fluent) there are places in this city I cant go because im white(actualy im technicaly mixed race, i just LOOK white ffs), There are many places of bussiness I wont be served because I cant speak the language, and it is very common for people to have conversations in whatever language they please, If your not on holiday I personly think thats rather rude.

It should all be roses and wine, a multicultural melting pot - but you know what - it isnt. If I moved to a foreign country Id have the common decency to learn the **** language, abide by the local laws and embrace the culture. Us brits on the other hand are happy to change our laws to suit, happy to publish all official documants in 20 different languages and happy to pay extra taxs so theres always an interpreter on hand for things like the NHS or the police service. Some Long established bussiness have had to move locations to accomodate the wishes of imigrtants, most notably butchers but its certainly not all.

Im not racist, but I am intolerant, because I feel we've all been tollerant for long enough. Feel free to come and live in my country but please dont tell me how to live, what to speak, and what god to pray to. And have the common decency to learn our language, accept our laws and embrace our culture.

Id like it to be all freindly and nice but we have a problem here. And although I think the guy that attacked you in your own country for speaking one if its native languages was a total jerk, I do feel like my country could have used a few more total jerks in the last few years, maybe it would have slightly stemmed the tide.

[LordMond63]

Well, the goal of immigrants seems to have changed over the last 100 years or so.

I'm three generations removed from immigrants (great-grandparents on one side emigrated from Germany in the years after the Civil War). From what I understand, only my paternal great-grandfather spoke any English at all, and that limited with a thick accent. My paternal great-grandmother spoke no English at all. But they set about learning it to at the very least get by in English, the language of their adopted country because it made interacting with others that much easier. They did not insist that the government provide them with copies of various official documents in German. They did not insist that others learn to communicate with them in German. They did not insist that others conduct business with them in German. They assimilated.

Now, let's flash forward about 120 years. Many ethnic groups demand that the government and others living here accomodate them by insisting that teachers teach their kids in their native language, that government provide documents in their native language and a translator as well, that others communicate with them in their native language and that others conduct business with them in their native language. They are refusing to do what generations of immigrants before them did by refusing to assimilate, thus forcing a state of Balkanization on their host country. Multiculturalism has been one of the greates failures ever inflicted on civilization.

[Keybreaker]

They are refusing to do what generations of immigrants before them did by refusing to assimilate, thus forcing a state of Balkanization on their host country. Multiculturalism has been one of the greates failures ever inflicted on civilization.

Wow. You do realize that had the US Govt's forced assimilation "Indian Schools" successfully whitewashed Native Americans, that the Allies might not have won WWII? Or at the least it would have cost countless more lives? Why? Because the Nazi Enigma Code (like any code) could be broken by Allied cryptographers. But Navajo Code Talkers' "code" could not be broken by Nazi cryptographers because it was based on the Navajo language. (In WWI, Cherokee, Choctaw, and Comanche had been used by the US Army.)

Remember the epic tragedy that was 9/11? Remember as every channel replayed the collapsing Twin Towers, what was scrolling on the bottom of the screen? Our Govt, the US Govt, NEEDED Americans who spoke Arabic, Farsi, and other Middle Eastern languages. We didn't have enough multilingual Americans already working for the State Department and DoD. We were so short and needed them so badly, that the Govt had to recruit on television AFTER the attack.

Also, there is a difference between the German-American experience and other immigrant experiences. Sure Germans, Italians, Irish, Polish, etc. immigrants were discriminated against initially (and initially not considered "white" by the Anglo-Protestant mainstream). But did the German-Americans get stripped of their property and rights and get thrown into Internment Camps in WWII? Because Japanese-Americans did. Ask George Takei - he was there. Despite their internment, the Japanese-American volunteers of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team are the most highly decorated military unit in WWII (most of the honors bestowed posthumously, as they sacrificed their lives for this country). You can be the BEST starting NBA player ever, but if you are Chinese-American, ESPN will refer to you as a "Chink" ("Chink in the Armor: Jeremy Lin's 9 Turnovers Cost Knicks in Streak-stopping Loss to Hornets"). Over time, white Americans can comfortably assimilate into the "mainstream," but if you're not white? Nevermind that most African-Americans have been in America centuries longer than most white Americans, there are still (white) nutjobs, the "Birthers," who refuse to accept that Pres. Obama is American.

Sam Huntington and others have argued that there's only ONE legitimate American identity, a monolingual, "Anglo-Protestant" identity, and that Mexican-Americans' REFUSAL to assimilate will destroy America. (I wish I was making this up. Huntington was a Harvard professor and hero to many Washington policy-makers.) Frankly, I'm looking forward to the day that Huntington marked as DOOM!, the day that Hispanic-Americans replace White Americans as the majority ethnic group in the US. Perhaps America will become a bilingual nation. American identity is NOT merely "Anglo-Protestant," but based on the Enlightenment ideology of Liberalism (Democracy + Capitalism), and when you grow up bilingual, it's MUCH easier to acquire a third and fourth language. Being multilingual is an enriching personal asset, and an asset to this country. (English is my second language.)

American strength doesn't come from immigrants giving something up. American strength comes from immigrants contributing their diverse assets (language, culture, etc.) to further American ideals of promoting Liberalism.

Uninformed opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one, and you generally want to stay away from them. Informed opinions, on the other hand, contribute to a constructive discourse. You obviously have access to the internet. Read fewer uninformed opinions that pollute Youtube clips, and read more facts about American history. Be cool, stay in school.

[Vordax]

What do you call a person that speaks 2 languages? Bilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks 3 languages? Trilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks 1 language? American.

Learning a second language in the US is required in high school. The problem in the US is that there is not much opportunity to actually use that 2nd language, so it is quickly forgotten. I took 3 years of spanish and can remember about 20 words now and never had a need to use it in day to day life.

Vordax

[LordMond63]

Wow. You do realize that had the US Govt's forced assimilation "Indian Schools" successfully whitewashed Native Americans, that the Allies might not have won WWII? Or at the least it would have cost countless more lives? Why? Because the Nazi Enigma Code (like any code) could be broken by Allied cryptographers. But Navajo Code Talkers' "code" could not be broken by Nazi cryptographers because it was based on the Navajo language. (In WWI, Cherokee, Choctaw, and Comanche had been used by the US Army.)

Irrelevant.

The Indians learned English along with their native language- which is what I was advocating.

And Indian Code Talkers go back quite a ways before WW2.

Remember the epic tragedy that was 9/11? Remember as every channel replayed the collapsing Twin Towers, what was scrolling on the bottom of the screen? Our Govt, the US Govt, NEEDED Americans who spoke Arabic, Farsi, and other Middle Eastern languages. We didn't have enough multilingual Americans already working for the State Department and DoD. We were so short and needed them so badly, that the Govt had to recruit on television AFTER the attack.

Again, irrelevant because these people spoke English as well as their native language.

Also, there is a difference between the German-American experience and other immigrant experiences. Sure Germans, Italians, Irish, Polish, etc. immigrants were discriminated against initially (and initially not considered "white" by the Anglo-Protestant mainstream). But did the German-Americans get stripped of their property and rights and get thrown into Internment Camps in WWII? Because Japanese-Americans did. Ask George Takei - he was there. Despite their internment, the Japanese-American volunteers of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team are the most highly decorated military unit in WWII (most of the honors bestowed posthumously, as they sacrificed their lives for this country). You can be the BEST starting NBA player ever, but if you are Chinese-American, ESPN will refer to you as a "Chink" ("Chink in the Armor: Jeremy Lin's 9 Turnovers Cost Knicks in Streak-stopping Loss to Hornets"). Over time, white Americans can comfortably assimilate into the "mainstream," but if you're not white? Nevermind that most African-Americans have been in America centuries longer than most white Americans, there are still (white) nutjobs, the "Birthers," who refuse to accept that Pres. Obama is American.

Are you familiar with what the Wilson Administration did to German-Americans once we entered WW1?

I categorically reject your notion that non-whites cannot assimilate into American culture. History proves you completely wrong. If you cannot assimilate into American culture, regardless of your race, it is because you choose not to do so rather than any artifically contrived impediments to doing so.

And what's with the "Birther" nonesense? Did I mention President Obama? Did ANYONE mention President Obama?

Sam Huntington and others have argued that there's only ONE legitimate American identity, a monolingual, "Anglo-Protestant" identity, and that Mexican-Americans' REFUSAL to assimilate will destroy America. (I wish I was making this up. Huntington was a Harvard professor and hero to many Washington policy-makers.) Frankly, I'm looking forward to the day that Huntington marked as DOOM!, the day that Hispanic-Americans replace White Americans as the majority ethnic group in the US. Perhaps America will become a bilingual nation. American identity is NOT merely "Anglo-Protestant," but based on the Enlightenment ideology of Liberalism (Democracy + Capitalism), and when you grow up bilingual, it's MUCH easier to acquire a third and fourth language. Being multilingual is an enriching personal asset, and an asset to this country. (English is my second language.)

And then you have fruitcakes in the minority community such as Rev. Wright and Farrahkhan. So what's your point? That there are complete blitehring idiots on both sides? Agreed.

I strongly suspect that those who embraced traditional liberalism would not recognize the perversion of the term done to it by modern self-proclaimed "Liberals".

American strength doesn't come from immigrants giving something up. American strength comes from immigrants contributing their diverse assets (language, culture, etc.) to further American ideals of promoting Liberalism.

So learning English is the same as Internment Camps? Wow...just....wow.

Uninformed opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one, and you generally want to stay away from them. Informed opinions, on the other hand, contribute to a constructive discourse. You obviously have access to the internet. Read fewer uninformed opinions that pollute Youtube clips, and read more facts about American history. Be cool, stay in school.

"The problem with our Liberal friends isn't so much what they know, but rather what they know that is wrong."

As far as "informed opinions", I was strongly advise you to heed your own advice.

[Keybreaker]

Irrelevant.
The Indians learned English along with their native language- which is what I was advocating.

No you weren't. Are you flip-flopping? Because you actually said this:

They are refusing to do what generations of immigrants before them did by refusing to assimilate, thus forcing a state of Balkanization on their host country. Multiculturalism has been one of the greates failures ever inflicted on civilization.

Are you now saying multiculturalism is awesome?! Because you'd be right to think it's awesome that Native Americans did NOT assimilate, and could speak BOTH English AND their traditional languages. It saved America, helped the Allies, and contributed to the defeat of Fascism! Multiculturalism is awesome.

(In WWI, Cherokee, Choctaw, and Comanche had been used by the US Army.)

And Indian Code Talkers go back quite a ways before WW2.

I know. I mentioned it. And you quoted me mentioning it. It's further evidence that assimilation is a liability and multiculturalism is an asset... not just in WWII, but in WWI too! Those dang multilingual Native Americans! Love 'em.

I categorically reject your notion that non-whites cannot assimilate into American culture.

What are you? The BORG?

The Code Talkers are just one extremely conspicuous example of why NO ONE SHOULD ASSIMILATE. Everyone should embrace multiculturalism (they should not give up their language or culture when they adopt English and American Liberalism). You said, "Multiculturalism has been one of the greates [sic] failures ever inflicted on civilization." I never said learning English was bad. I am writing in English right now, and I must admit, I'm really good at this English thing. I am making the point that multiculturalism (including multilingualism) is GOOD! It's always been, and always will be (hopefully) a source of American strength.

Advocating "assimilation" (which includes monolingualism, and the rejection of all alternate culture and identity) and categorically rejecting "multiculturalism" (which includes multilingualism), is to invite America's downfall.

Resorting to false indignation, and name-calling ("Liberals"), doesn't substitute for an actual defense of your indefensible, and offensive, assertion that "Multiculturalism has been one of the greates [sic] failures ever inflicted on civilization."

From the content of your response, it actually seems like you're agreeing with me (that assimilation is bad, multiculturalism is awesome!), but you just don't understand what "assimilation" and "multiculturalism" mean.

[Phemt81]

What do you call a person that speaks 2 languages? Bilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks 3 languages? Trilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks 1 language? American.

LOL ! Mind if i +1 you?

Anyway it's not really true (even if funny), all americans speak a little bit of italian, they just don't know it... like all italians speak a little bit of english, even if they can't really understand it

[Keybreaker]

Also, there is a difference between the German-American experience and other immigrant experiences. Sure Germans, Italians, Irish, Polish, etc. immigrants were discriminated against initially (and initially not considered "white" by the Anglo-Protestant mainstream). But did the German-Americans get stripped of their property and rights and get thrown into Internment Camps in WWII? Because Japanese-Americans did. Ask George Takei - he was there. Despite their internment, the Japanese-American volunteers of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team are the most highly decorated military unit in WWII (most of the honors bestowed posthumously, as they sacrificed their lives for this country). You can be the BEST starting NBA player ever, but if you are Chinese-American, ESPN will refer to you as a "Chink" ("Chink in the Armor: Jeremy Lin's 9 Turnovers Cost Knicks in Streak-stopping Loss to Hornets"). Over time, white Americans can comfortably assimilate into the "mainstream," but if you're not white? Nevermind that most African-Americans have been in America centuries longer than most white Americans, there are still (white) nutjobs, the "Birthers," who refuse to accept that Pres. Obama is American.

I categorically reject your notion that non-whites cannot assimilate into American culture. History proves you completely wrong. If you cannot assimilate into American culture, regardless of your race, it is because you choose not to do so rather than any artifically contrived impediments to doing so. And what's with the "Birther" nonesense? Did I mention President Obama? Did ANYONE mention President Obama?

You can reject it all you want. But German-Americans have been accepted into the mainstream, the road may have been rough at first, but once accepted as "white" they were able to completely assimilate. Non-white Americans, no matter how much they try to assimilate will never fully be accepted into the mainstream because they will never be accepted as "white," and we definitely don't live in a post-racial America (not yet).

In my example, the Japanese-Americans of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team were true American patriots. Obama is the democratically elected President of the United States. Jeremy Lin is an extraordinary athlete and Harvard graduate. Obama, Lin, and almost all of the 442nd were born in America, raised in America, Christian, and FLUENT in English. Yet they were interred by the Govt, called "Chink" three times in one week by ESPN, and rejected as "American" by some citizens who cannot respect or accept a black president.
[/quote]

Sam Huntington and others have argued that there's only ONE legitimate American identity, a monolingual, "Anglo-Protestant" identity, and that Mexican-Americans' REFUSAL to assimilate will destroy America...

And then you have fruitcakes in the minority community such as Rev. Wright and Farrahkhan. So what's your point? That there are complete blitehring idiots on both sides? Agreed...

So learning English is the same as Internment Camps? Wow...just....wow.

Wut??? Those "fruitcakes" are terrible people, but they don't make national policies. Japanese-Americans were interred by the US Govt. In 1988, the Reagan administration admitted that the internment policy was a product of "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership..." Huntington's fear-mongering about Mexican-American immigration has been translated into policies in Arizona, Alabama, and nationally. You yourself speak of "assimilation" as the only legitimate path for immigrants, and "multiculturalism" as "the greates [sic] failures ever inflicted on civilization." That's exactly what Huntington says about immigration, assimilation, and multiculturalism.

All my examples, including myself, are fluent in English. I never said immigrants shouldn't learn English. Although as you pointed out, even for your great-grandparents that was a challenge, and English is a Germanic language! Of course immigrants should learn English, and even if they never master it, their children and their grandchildren will. Furthermore they should embrace Liberalism, because that is our true identity as Americans (not racial or "Anglo-Protestant"). However, they SHOULD NOT assimilate. They SHOULD NOT completely forget or completely discard their "other" language, culture, religion, etc., because America is stronger with diversity. America is stronger as a multilingual and multicultural nation. Multiculturalism saved us in WWII and more multiculturalism would make us better prepared to understand the world and work with the world as part of the world, because even the mighty United States can't work against the world and survive.


Ok. Lemme transition to less serious mode. (Dial down from 10 to 8.)

"Speak english your in a english country!!"

Really?
How about:
Speak english you're in an english speaking country!!

Signed,
An American English Instructor

Isn't this a bigger problem? Typos happen. The OP is bilingual and can obviously communicate very well in English (I mean he WROTE the OP and several responses). But the source of much anti-Americanism in the world, from Canada to Iran, is the perception (sometimes true, sometimes not) that Americans are condescending and conceited. Anti-Americanism puts American lives in danger, and makes our foreign policy more expensive in lives and dollars because it erodes our "soft power."

Don't be condescending, conceited, and wrong at the same time when attempting to display cultural superiority. The "correction" offered by the "American English Instructor" is horribly INCORRECT. Never mind the lack of capitalization and double exclamation mark!! It it TWO clauses, and must be two sentences.

Speak English! You're in an English forum!

As many have jested. If you are going to be monolingual, don't bring shame to the only language you are (sort of) capable of using.

[LordMond63]

No you weren't. Are you flip-flopping? Because you actually said this:

From Dictionary.com:

Assimilation- definition #3 (Sociological context) the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups , not involving biological amalgamation.

I see nothing in any definition of the term which indicates that assimilation involves the total abandonment of all cultural identity, and I know of no one that accepts that as a prerequisite for assimilation.

In other words, a Hispanic need not abandon his Latino/Spanish heritage and unique culture in order to assimilate into mainstream American culture, unless you believe that learning English is abandoning their heritage. I should think that is a far, far, far out of the mainstream argument to make.

Are you now saying multiculturalism is awesome?! Because you'd be right to think it's awesome that Native Americans did NOT assimilate, and could speak BOTH English AND their traditional languages. It saved America, helped the Allies, and contributed to the defeat of Fascism! Multiculturalism is awesome.

Dictionary.com defines "multiculturalism" as: the preservation of different cultures or cultural identities within a unified society, as a state or nation.

Under that definition, which is the one that existed in the United States until the 1960s, I would agree with you that it was "awesome". But that definition is no longer in practice. Various ethnic and religious minorities are choosing to live within homogenous communities and demand that the society outside their enclaves make accomodations that suit their needs.

Using your definition of the term, the Indian Code Talkers were WRONG to have learned English and instead demanded that those outside their tribe accomodate them by learning, for example, Navaho.

I mentioned it. And you quoted me mentioning it. It's further evidence that assimilation is a liability and multiculturalism is an asset... not just in WWII, but in WWI too! Those dang multilingual Native Americans! Love 'em.

Yep...because they ASSIMILATED.

e you? The BORG?

The Code Talkers are just one extremely conspicuous example of why NO ONE SHOULD ASSIMILATE. Everyone should embrace multiculturalism (they should not give up their language or culture when they adopt English and American Liberalism). You said, "Multiculturalism has been one of the greates [sic] failures ever inflicted on civilization." I never said learning English was bad. I am writing in English right now, and I must admit, I'm really good at this English thing. I am making the point that multiculturalism (including multilingualism) is GOOD! It's always been, and always will be (hopefully) a source of American strength.

Who is demanding that anyone "give up their language or culture" in the process of assimilation?

ing "assimilation" (which includes monolingualism, and the rejection of all alternate culture and identity) and categorically rejecting "multiculturalism" (which includes multilingualism), is to invite America's downfall.

I would love to know where you dug up that manifestly incorrect definition of "assimilation".

Resorting to false indignation, and name-calling ("Liberals"), doesn't substitute for an actual defense of your indefensible, and offensive, assertion that "Multiculturalism has been one of the greates [sic] failures ever inflicted on civilization."

Ask the French how that Muslim assimilation thing is going.

And I assure you that the indignation is not false.

And thank you for admitting that, under the modern definition, "liberal" is a derogatory term.

From the content of your response, it actually seems like you're agreeing with me (that assimilation is bad, multiculturalism is awesome!), but you just don't understand what "assimilation" and "multiculturalism" mean.

Funny, I could say the exact same thing about you.

I assure you that my forebears did not abandon their German language and culture when they assimilated into the American culture. But they realized that it was to their benefit and the benefit of their children to learn the language of the majority in terms of making communication and the transaction of business easier and the education of their children easier. It did not even occur to them to demand that the United States accomodate them by printing official documents in their native language and providing translators for them, as it does now to at least some minority groups.

Let me pose a question: why is it that Asian immigrants do so well in this country? Their skin color isn't white. Their native language isn't English. Yet they prosper to the point out outperforming whites in many different measures of success. Might it be because they practice the correct definitions of "assimilation" (the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups) and "multiculturalism" (the preservation of different cultures or cultural identities within a unified society, as a state or nation.)? I submit to you that is EXACTLY the reason.

[cdbd3rd]

*looks around in disbelief that this thread is still alive.*

So, aside from adding a belated IBTL, may I present:

[LordMond63]

You can reject it all you want. But German-Americans have been accepted into the mainstream, the road may have been rough at first, but once accepted as "white" they were able to completely assimilate. Non-white Americans, no matter how much they try to assimilate will never fully be accepted into the mainstream because they will never be accepted as "white," and we definitely don't live in a post-racial America (not yet).

The soft bigotry of low expectations.

In my example, the Japanese-Americans of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team were true American patriots. Obama is the democratically elected President of the United States. Jeremy Lin is an extraordinary athlete and Harvard graduate. Obama, Lin, and almost all of the 442nd were born in America, raised in America, Christian, and FLUENT in English. Yet they were interred by the Govt, called "Chink" three times in one week by ESPN, and rejected as "American" by some citizens who cannot respect or accept a black president.

Only in the example of the 442nd RCT is race relevant to their story. The fact that Lin is Asian and Obama is black has- or should have- no meaning.

Wut??? Those "fruitcakes" are terrible people, but they don't make national policies.

Are you sure those "fruitcakes" do not set national policy?

Know where Barack Obama got the name for one of his autobiographies, "The Audacity Of Hope"?. From a sermon by one of those fruitcakes, the 'reverend' Jeremiah Wright. One has to wonder just how much influence listening to Wright's ravings for 20+ years had on President Obama.

Japanese-Americans were interred by the US Govt. In 1988, the Reagan administration admitted that the internment policy was a product of "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership..." Huntington's fear-mongering about Mexican-American immigration has been translated into policies in Arizona, Alabama, and nationally. You yourself speak of "assimilation" as the only legitimate path for immigrants, and "multiculturalism" as "the greates [sic] failures ever inflicted on civilization." That's exactly what Huntington says about immigration, assimilation, and multiculturalism.

I live in Alabama, and so am in a far better postion to discern the effects of our immigration policy- which is nothing more than enforcing Federal law on a state level because the Federal government, under both parties, has failed to do so- than most others. If you are getting your reportage from any of the mainstreal, legacy print or television media, you have been deliberately misinformed.

Huntington's definition of "assimilation" and "multiculturalism" seems identical to yours, not mine.

All my examples, including myself, are fluent in English. I never said immigrants shouldn't learn English. Although as you pointed out, even for your great-grandparents that was a challenge, and English is a Germanic language! Of course immigrants should learn English, and even if they never master it, their children and their grandchildren will.

Which is all that I ask.

Furthermore they should embrace Liberalism, because that is our true identity as Americans (not racial or "Anglo-Protestant"). However, they SHOULD NOT assimilate. They SHOULD NOT completely forget or completely discard their "other" language, culture, religion, etc., because America is stronger with diversity. America is stronger as a multilingual and multicultural nation. Multiculturalism saved us in WWII and more multiculturalism would make us better prepared to understand the world and work with the world as part of the world, because even the mighty United States can't work against the world and survive.

If they embrace classical liberalism- which is modern conservatism, by the way- then we'll be fine.

If they embrace modern liberalism- which is a bastardization of Progressivism and Socialism- then we're doomed.

Assimilation is what saved us in WW2. Had the members of the Navaho Code Talkers and the 442nd RCT embraced multiculturalism, at least as it is typically practiced today, they would not have learned English and would not have volunteered for service.

Something I found interesting about the 442nd RCT was the similarities between it and the black troops who joined the Union Army during the Civil War. While the "grunts" were of one race in both, the officers were almost uniformly white, as if the trust in the troops was not complete. Similar, too, was the reaction to such slights by the troops- they fought harder and more aggressively than was the norm in order to, I guess, "prove themselves".

Anyway....I suspect that we've trod sufficiently close to the "P-word" (politics) here, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised if I managed to contribute to another thread getting locked. I hope I've not caused offense to anyone here because such was not my intent. This is a topic on which I feel rather strongly, so I advocate my view with more passion than might be usual.

[Llewndyn]

IBTL.

To the OP: Maybe he was sad that he thought you guys were making fun of him and wanted to join in and felt the only way to do it was to act all tough, then it backfired. Pity him, punch him, snuggle him, then move on.

To those saying Americans are stupid or only know one language/ etc.: There are a VERY small minority of us that are morons who spout the "Speak Murrican or GEET outta mah countrah!" They are morons. We let them on TV because that's WAY more entertaining than the other 97% of Americans who aren't racist bigoted idiots. Making jokes about a country that has saved your own country's ass at least once in the last 150 years (for the most part) doesn't seem to make any more sense than these morons. We're like that cousin you don't tell anyone about because you're ashamed of us, but when the chips are down we're the first ones you call. Idiocy is a global language. America does NOT own a corner on that market (Fried Mayonnaise/pickles/ Snickers/ Twinkies/ cats however, that's another story)

[Keybreaker]

Awesome. You went from saying:

They are refusing to do what generations of immigrants before them did by refusing to assimilate, thus forcing a state of Balkanization on their host country. Multiculturalism has been one of the greates failures ever inflicted on civilization.

To admitting this:

Dictionary.com defines "multiculturalism" as: the preservation of different cultures or cultural identities within a unified society, as a state or nation.

Under that definition, which is the one that existed in the United States until the 1960s, I would agree with you that it was "awesome".

So again, I think we actually agree in substance.

I wish assimilation were as neutral as the dictionary.com definition implies.

Assimilation- definition #3 (Sociological context) the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups

As you point out, and I wholly agree, that if "assimilation" and "multiculturalism" meant what dictionary.com says they mean, then they seem rather similar to each other, and ultimately both positive and constructive goals for all immigrants.

Again, if we divorce ourselves from politics and jargon, I believe we agree that America is better off when immigrants adopt both the English language and the ideology of Liberalism while not losing or discarding all of their own distinct language, culture, etc. Too bad more young Navajo can't speak Navajo as well as their grandparents. Too bad more Americans can't speak Arabic and Farsi. It could help America a lot right now.

Cultural assimilation... full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from older members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation

Unfortunately, there is this other understanding of assimilation. The Borg kind - where you will be assimilated until your differences are erased, and you are indistinguishable from any other Borg. (Am I dating myself? Do people remember the Borg?)

In my example of the Indian Schools, they were a concerted effort by the US Govt to practice the bad kind of assimilation that the OP was venting about:

By 1902 there were twenty-five federally funded non-reservation schools across fifteen states and territories with a total enrollment of over 6,000. Although federal legislation made education compulsory for Native Americans...

Once the new students arrived at the boarding schools, their lives altered drastically. They were usually given new haircuts, uniforms of European-American style clothes, and even new English names, sometimes based on their own, other times assigned at random. They could no longer speak their own languages, even with each other. They were expected to attend Christian churches. Their lives were run by the strict orders of their teachers, and it often included grueling chores and stiff punishments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...arding_schools

The OP was venting about being bullied and taunted for not speaking English in New Zealand. The OP is obviously capable of speaking English, but whether in NZ or any other English-dominant country (most of which are the products of imperialism and colonization, including the United States), the OP or any other immigrant has the absolute right to speak whatever they want with their friends.

(I should point out that, obviously, Native Americans are not really immigrants. They were the first human settlers of the Americas, many millennia before any white colonizers. "Historical assimilation" implies that the less powerful groups, even if they were MUCH larger majority in number and the original inhabitants, were the ones expected to assimilate to the more powerful group, even if they were the much smaller minority in number and illegitimate colonizers. Today, immigrants are both the minority AND less powerful, and are the ones expected to change. But until recently, whether in the Americas or Oceania, the majority of natives and aborigines were the ones expected to change and conform to the culture and language of the white settlers aka white immigrants.)

The bad kind of assimilation epitomized by the American Indian Schools sought to erase all "other" culture. It was the opposite of multiculturalism, and sought to erase Native American culture in dress, hair, names, religion, and language. Thank God these school failed to "assimilate" Native Americans. Where would the US Army have gotten Code Talkers if the Indian Schools succeeded in eliminating Native American languages? How will we continue to communicate with the world and be relevant to the world if we don't embrace multiculturalism and promote multilingualism?

[LordMond63]

Key-

I do suspect that we agree more than we disagree on this, once we defined the terms.

I still think multiculturalism, as it has been implemented too often today- and by that I mean seperate racial and religious enclaves that have no interest in lending their strengths to the larger society/culture as a whole because they believe assimilation is selling out their heritage- is one of the greatest failures of and threats to society.

But if it is accomplished in the manner as defined by dictionary.com, you're absolutely right that the end result is a society made stronger as a whole with individual cultural/societal/religious heritages left intact. We are better off because German immigrants became Americans first and German second, Italian immigrants became American first and Italian second and so on.

Again, if we divorce ourselves from politics and jargon, I believe we agree that America is better off when immigrants adopt both the English language and the ideology of Liberalism while not losing or discarding all of their own distinct language, culture, etc. Too bad more young Navajo can't speak Navajo as well as their grandparents. Too bad more Americans can't speak Arabic and Farsi. It could help America a lot right now.

America has always been a reactive rather than proactive country when it comes to dealing with threats.

We had far too few Japanese translators in the days leading up to WW2 so that, even though we were able to intercept Japanese military and diplomatic codes, we lacked enough people to correctly translate them. The same thing happened in the Cold War- not enough Russian translators. Then Korea (Chinese and Korean). Vietnam. And now the various Arabic dialects and languages. If you ask me now to make a prediction, I'd say learn how to speak the languages of India, as in the subcontinent. India will probably be the world's #1 economic power within the next 30 years because it is a democracy (as opposed to China's fascist-capitalist mashup) and has a populat roughly 4x that of the United States. We thought that Japan was going to supplant the US but their population is ageing so rapidly that they are going to run out of workers to support their retirement systems within a generation or two.

Unfortunately, there is this other understanding of assimilation. The Borg kind - where you will be assimilated until your differences are erased, and you are indistinguishable from any other Borg. (Am I dating myself? Do people remember the Borg?)

Of course people remember the Borg. Jeri Ryan was HAWT!

But kidding aside, yes there are some on my side of the political spectrum that would cut off all immigration, legal and illegal alike. That would be a terrible mistake because legal immigration has, indeed, by a consistent source of strength and vitality to this nation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with stopping illegal immigration- a country that does not control its borders is not sovereign- but there is no need to become isolationist. It didn't work in the 1930s and the world is much smaller now than it was then.

The bad kind of assimilation epitomized by the American Indian Schools sought to erase all "other" culture. It was the opposite of multiculturalism, and sought to erase Native American culture in dress, hair, names, religion, and language. Thank God these school failed to "assimilate" Native Americans. Where would the US Army have gotten Code Talkers if the Indian Schools succeeded in eliminating Native American languages? How will we continue to communicate with the world and be relevant to the world if we don't embrace multiculturalism and promote multilingualism?

You know who had a (comparatively) good record in dealing with American Indians?

The Confederate States of America.

It's one of those great "HUH?"s of history that the CSA was willing to extend rights to one group of non-whites but not another. In fact, Richmond's policies towards American Indians (at least those of the so-called "Five Civilized Tribes") was so much more enlightened than that of Washington's that a large number of Indians became scouts and cavalry units for the armies of the Confederacy.