Possible idea for making AC matter...

[mobrien316]

In trying to come up with a viable idea for making AC actually mean something, I have been kicking around the following idea:

If you wear Light Armor:
AC<20 = 2% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 20-29 = 4% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 30-39 = 6% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 40-49 = 8% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 50-59 = 10% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 60-69 = 12% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 70-79 = 14% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 80-89 = 16% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 90-99 = 18% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 100 and over = 20% of incoming physical damage is ignored

If you wear Medium Armor:
AC<20 = 5% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 20-29 = 10% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 30-39 = 15% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 40-49 = 20% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 50-59 = 25% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 60-69 = 30% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 70-79 = 35% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 80-89 = 40% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 90-99 = 45% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 100 and over = 50% of incoming physical damage is ignored

If you wear Heavy Armor:
AC<20 = 8% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 20-29 = 16% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 30-39 = 24% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 40-49 = 32% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 50-59 = 40% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 60-69 = 48% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 70-79 = 56% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 80-89 = 64% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 90-99 = 72% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 100 and over = 80% of incoming physical damage is ignored

If you wear no armor, there is no incoming damage ignored unless you have evasion or improved evasion. If you have evasion, incoming damage is ignored as though you were wearing light armor. If you have improved evasion, incoming damage is ignored as though you were wearing medium armor.

This is just an idea – the numbers are far from perfect.


Someone recently posted that it seems ridiculous that a fighter can obtain the same benefit from wearing pajamas as he can from wearing plate mail, which I agree is ridiculous. A fighter (for example) wearing plate mail and carrying a tower shield should be able to ignore a large amount of incoming physical damage, certainly more than a fighter carrying two weapons and wearing pajamas.

[Sidewaysgts86]

Sounds a lot like the thread I made very recently..

[bloodnose13]

idea is good at base but there is a problem of mithral, mithral armors are class lower so wearing mithral fullplate would be bit punishing since most good fp armors are mithral, maybe instead it should be based on armor type (fullplate, halfplate, etc).

[noinfo]

In trying to come up with a viable idea for making AC actually mean something, I have been kicking around the following idea:

If you wear Light Armor:
AC<20 = 2% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 20-29 = 4% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 30-39 = 6% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 40-49 = 8% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 50-59 = 10% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 60-69 = 12% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 70-79 = 14% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 80-89 = 16% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 90-99 = 18% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 100 and over = 20% of incoming physical damage is ignored

If you wear Medium Armor:
AC<20 = 5% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 20-29 = 10% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 30-39 = 15% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 40-49 = 20% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 50-59 = 25% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 60-69 = 30% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 70-79 = 35% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 80-89 = 40% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 90-99 = 45% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 100 and over = 50% of incoming physical damage is ignored

If you wear Heavy Armor:
AC<20 = 8% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 20-29 = 16% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 30-39 = 24% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 40-49 = 32% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 50-59 = 40% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 60-69 = 48% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 70-79 = 56% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 80-89 = 64% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 90-99 = 72% of incoming physical damage is ignored
AC 100 and over = 80% of incoming physical damage is ignored

If you wear no armor, there is no incoming damage ignored unless you have evasion or improved evasion. If you have evasion, incoming damage is ignored as though you were wearing light armor. If you have improved evasion, incoming damage is ignored as though you were wearing medium armor.

This is just an idea – the numbers are far from perfect.


Someone recently posted that it seems ridiculous that a fighter can obtain the same benefit from wearing pajamas as he can from wearing plate mail, which I agree is ridiculous. A fighter (for example) wearing plate mail and carrying a tower shield should be able to ignore a large amount of incoming physical damage, certainly more than a fighter carrying two weapons and wearing pajamas.

Or they could actually make AC work like AC by adjusting the die roll instead.

[grodon9999]

Or they could actually make AC work like AC by adjusting the die roll instead.

nah, it's much easier for people to come up with convoluted and overly-complicated ideas so they can feel smarter.

This idea is horrible.

[Memek]

The distinction between Medium and Heavy Armor is bad since it would make Mithral a gimpy attribute on armors.

In general, the distinction between the different kinds is not good imho. Should disappear. There are advantages to Med/Hvy Armor - Defenders (Strength based) can reach very AC values - im not quite sure how the Monk splashes but to get close to the Defenders, they certainly cant be Strength based so in DPS a Str Fighter with Heavy Armor will do more damage. Nevermind that since the Defender changes, Heavy Armor reaches the highest AC values as far as i know.
And, wearing a shield and wearing heavy armor are two different things.

The difference between absorption is FAR too high between the different kinds of armor.

As it is, it would gimp Rangers since they'd only get the reduction from light armor while being melee. Heck, they'd get less reduction than Rogues in robes.

Btw, medium and heavy armors usually feature stronger effects on them so there are reasons to wear. To find a dress that compares to Epic Mari Chain or Epic Cav Plate... You cant, and why is that? Because both of those are medium, disable Evasion and have thus received stronger effects.

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Furthermore, the system would lead to quests that would become unsolvable unless you bring a very high AC tank. If it has to be assumed by the devs that all damage is reduced by 80%, any character with less will be completely obliberated. Basically, everything high level would have to balanced with 80% reduction in mind, and then see what happens when your Barb gets some aggro...

The absorption is far too high in the proposal, it would have to cap out at 50% absolute max. Furthermore, the absorption value cant only be dependent on your AC score but has to be the result of a comparison between the monsters attack score and the character's AC, since otherwise the damage output in the highest level content would have to 1 shot characters with lesser defenses while high but not highest level content would become completely trivial for Mr 80%.

Some players might wish for a more-WoW like game where you MUST bring a defensive tank to do any group content but i dont think we want that in DDO. And 80% absorption vs everything would certainly lead to that. Anyone but Mr 80% would get 1 shotted, and we dont want that.


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Overall, while i do think that AC has to be converted to an absorption value in the long term, the suggestion as it stands would break the game very heavily.

[somenewnoob]

Or they could actually make AC work like AC by adjusting the die roll instead.

One thing I worry about with that.......that will mean mob ac will have to matter to.......and as usual who gets Sandusky'd? Melees!

I like the premise of the OP's idea.

But really I think the whole "roll a 20" just does not translate well into a MMO that has such a vast range of possible AC. I just don't want to see it implemented in a way that makes melee's less effective by making their die rolls different.

[grodon9999]

But really I think the whole "roll a 20" just does not translate well into a MMO that has such a vast range of possible AC. I just don't want to see it implemented in a way that makes melee's less effective by making their die rolls different.

Expand the range to a 2-40 or 3-60 variable.

What makes the OPs idea dumb is the tie in to armor type, it's as dumb as the Shield mastery mitigation % being tied to shield type. So little of your AC actually comes from your armor (16 points max) that that being the determining factor is dumb.

[somenewnoob]

Expand the range to a 2-40 or 3-60 variable.

What makes the OPs idea dumb is the tie in to armor type, it's as dumb as the Shield mastery mitigation % being tied to shield type. So little of your AC actually comes from your armor (16 points max) that that being the determining factor is dumb.

Aye, I've given this a lot of thought over the months and thought of that as well, an attack range instead of 1-20 + x.

The only reason I thought that might not be great is.......so now mobs have an attack range......are they going to do the same things to melee's now? Instead of having a BAB of x, will I now have a range of x to y.

I know they don't HAVE TO make it the same for players.....and could just leave what we have in place for players and change mobs to hit to that.....but it just seems.....unfair !

[grodon9999]

Aye, I've given this a lot of thought over the months and thought of that as well, an attack range instead of 1-20 + x.

That fact that you agree with me show's you are a smart man who understand the game mechanics

The only reason I thought that might not be great is.......so now mobs have an attack range......are they going to do the same things to melee's now? Instead of having a BAB of x, will I now have a range of x to y.

I know they don't HAVE TO make it the same for players.....and could just leave what we have in place for players and change mobs to hit to that.....but it just seems.....unfair !

Why in god's name would Turbine have to do that? The players and mobs do now operate by the same rules, never have and never should. Maybe when I have 500,000 HP that would make sense.

[Krago]

nah, it's much easier for people to come up with convoluted and overly-complicated ideas so they can feel smarter.

This idea is horrible.

Grab youself a cup of joe and lets be constructive.

The idea is a start but I do believe its with the wrong foot. The idea does give benefits to those builds who use armor. It does inherently penalize those without armor, Monks/Rangers. They may have worked equally as hard to get their AC to 80+ and deserve to be included in being helped out but any AC improvement.

[grodon9999]

Grab youself a cup of joe and lets be constructive.

As soon as Madfloyd posts his official thread my dissertation on defense will be posted. No point is going over anything else until that happens.

[Krago]

As soon as Madfloyd posts his official thread my dissertation on defense will be posted. No point is going over anything else until that happens.

And as always, I will be very interested into your thoughts on AC.

[somenewnoob]

Why in god's name would Turbine have to do that? The players and mobs do now operate by the same rules, never have and never should. Maybe when I have 500,000 HP that would make sense.

That's an excellent point!

[noinfo]

As soon as Madfloyd posts his official thread my dissertation on defense will be posted. No point is going over anything else until that happens.

And its now a week overdue?

[grodon9999]

And its now a week overdue?

I think Madfloyd's been on a week-long bender from the superbowl, either that or he's busy buying up all the torches and pitchforks in the greater Boston area as a precaution.

[Missing_Minds]

I think Madfloyd's been on a week-long bender from the superbowl, either that or he's busy buying up all the torches and pitchforks in the greater Boston area as a precaution.

More like a weeklong + BUYer due to all the work that is going to be necessary for an AC overhaul.

[Silverwren]

AC100?

Is that even possible? I've never seen anything over 40 or so on any of my melee toons.

[herzkos]

i'm also going to wait for the "official" discussion with the exception that
I would like armor to matter by using DR to the types it would actually
be effective against.
/edit

AC100?

Is that even possible? I've never seen anything over 40 or so on any of my melee toons.

lots of gear and or multiclass utilization.

[Grailhawk]

Any change to defense in this game needs to first address monster to-hit in epics being way to high. I'm a fan of changing the the way monsters hit from 1d20+80 to 20d5 but if you had to keep the d20 then 3d20+40 would be fine.

About your system for adding damage reduction to AC I think it would work better if you added a modifier lets call it armor rank that works as a multiplier. This would mean that any one with a armor rank of 1 would get the 2%-20% damage reduction like you suggest for light armor. So using your example you would give all light armor a armor rank of 1, medium armor a rank of 3 and heavy armor a rank of 4. This would raise the values slightly since 20 *3 = 60 but IMO it would probably be better to do 1,2,3.

This has the benefit of letting you put armor rank on other equipment like Bracers plus allowing you to give custom ranks like 1.5 to different equipment and you can keep armor rank off low level gear where AC works fine now.