Another Look at TR XP requirements

[djl]

People greatly overvalue the importance of TRing. The extra stats are often unnecessary because they don't grant enough to boost a primary stat twice (due to hard caps and the increased cost), and the automatic past life is a small bonus. If your toon is gimped without having that extra +1 dc or +1 damage/attack, you have bigger problems.

Knowledge of the game and gear are way more important than past lives.

[Thrudh]

People greatly overvalue the importance of TRing.

This.

1 or 2 TRs is really the sweet spot... No more stat increases after two TRs, and most builds can only fit in 1 or 2 active past life feats anyway...

So all you're getting from TRs past that is the passive past-life feats... which are not that important... 10 hps, +1 to hit, +1 to damage... These are "nice", but not necessary to have an excellent character...

I plan to single TR all 7 of my main characters (5 already done) and double TR 3 of them (1 done).

[Cyr]

This.

1 or 2 TRs is really the sweet spot... No more stat increases after two TRs, and most builds can only fit in 1 or 2 active past life feats anyway...

So all you're getting from TRs past that is the passive past-life feats... which are not that important... 10 hps, +1 to hit, +1 to damage... These are "nice", but not necessary to have an excellent character...

I plan to single TR all 7 of my main characters (5 already done) and double TR 3 of them (1 done).

I think that something is overlooked when people look at single past life benefits in isolation to builds.

I look at past life benefits as what I get back on a toon that I can now use elsewhere in the build more often then not. For example, two barb past lives ~ 1 Feat, two wizard past lives ~ 2 feats or six AP and a feat, a monk and fighter past life ~ 6 ability points to spend...

Effectively they become build resources that can be re-allocated to pull off things that might have been a little too tight to pull off before.

[Cam_Neely]

I think that something is overlooked when people look at single past life benefits in isolation to builds.

I look at past life benefits as what I get back on a toon that I can now use elsewhere in the build more often then not. For example, two barb past lives ~ 1 Feat, two wizard past lives ~ 2 feats or six AP and a feat, a monk and fighter past life ~ 6 ability points to spend...

Effectively they become build resources that can be re-allocated to pull off things that might have been a little too tight to pull off before.

Which is great for the people that want to go to the max. But I think as far as the population as a whole, its overkill. That is my main argument for going against the slippery slope that is XP inflation. These numerous past lives should be a hard goal for a small fraction of the player base. For the rest of it, it should not be made easy, or even considered a doable goal.

[Thrudh]

I think that something is overlooked when people look at single past life benefits in isolation to builds.

I look at past life benefits as what I get back on a toon that I can now use elsewhere in the build more often then not. For example, two barb past lives ~ 1 Feat, two wizard past lives ~ 2 feats or six AP and a feat, a monk and fighter past life ~ 6 ability points to spend...

Effectively they become build resources that can be re-allocated to pull off things that might have been a little too tight to pull off before.

Very good point... Especially on the wizard example. Wizard past-life(s) is very powerful for most casters.

[Yalann]

I would not be opposed to changing the exp required a bit. Mainly, I would like either better exp from higher quests (they SHOULD give more exp than lvl 7-13 stuff...) or to shift the exp debt. Make it a flat +50% per level for hero and +100% for Legend. It would still require 3.8m for a Legend and 2.85m for a Hero but would be less of a grind at the higher levels where there is far less content.

[Xeraphim]

People greatly overvalue the importance of TRing. The extra stats are often unnecessary because they don't grant enough to boost a primary stat twice (due to hard caps and the increased cost), and the automatic past life is a small bonus. If your toon is gimped without having that extra +1 dc or +1 damage/attack, you have bigger problems.

Knowledge of the game and gear are way more important than past lives.

For those of us who have been on DDO for years, TRing is the only logical choice for continuing character advancement. Unfortunately, it renders the TR(ed/ing) Character completely unable to contribute in Epic content and in top end raids until the levelling process can be completed again. This is a massively prohibitive problem generated solely by the XP needs, primarily after level 16 is attained as a Legend.

[Xeraphim]

I would not be opposed to changing the exp required a bit. Mainly, I would like either better exp from higher quests (they SHOULD give more exp than lvl 7-13 stuff...) or to shift the exp debt. Make it a flat +50% per level for hero and +100% for Legend. It would still require 3.8m for a Legend and 2.85m for a Hero but would be less of a grind at the higher levels where there is far less content.

This is along the lines of the request in the Original Post.

[Xeraphim]

Which is great for the people that want to go to the max. But I think as far as the population as a whole, its overkill. That is my main argument for going against the slippery slope that is XP inflation. These numerous past lives should be a hard goal for a small fraction of the player base. For the rest of it, it should not be made easy, or even considered a doable goal.

So your argument is that folks with families and real jobs and such should be completely locked out of TRing as a result of it being entirely too difficult/costly/time consuming/all of the above. I don't understand your perspective.

It makes no sense in a gaming or developer perspective, it makes no sense from a storytelling/writing perspective and it makes the opposite of sense from a financial/retail perspective. Please at least try to understand that we as players of a game that we have enjoyed for over half a decade want to continue to power up our characters and to some extent actually like revisiting old content over and over again slightly more powerful each time. The time consumption factor is just too excessive for most of us.

[Cam_Neely]

So your argument is that folks with families and real jobs and such should be completely locked out of TRing as a result of it being entirely too difficult/costly/time consuming/all of the above. I don't understand your perspective.

No, I have a family and job, and I TR. But I don't expect it to take less then 4 months, and dont expect to be at cap quickly. What I am saying is that basing TRs on the idea that everyone should be able to do then, and get back to cap quickly is dumb. There is a ton of great content between 1-18. Enjoy it.

It makes no sense in a gaming or developer perspective, it makes no sense from a storytelling/writing perspective and it makes the opposite of sense from a financial/retail perspective. Please at least try to understand that we as players of a game that we have enjoyed for over half a decade want to continue to power up our characters and to some extent actually like revisiting old content over and over again slightly more powerful each time. The time consumption factor is just too excessive for most of us.

No, it makes no sense to make the bulk of xp in this game (1-18) obsolete by making TRs (or leveling in general) easy. I'm skipping alot of sub lv 10 quests on my double TR, not farming any quests (besides Deleras, I LOVE Deleras) If you have played for half a decade you would also understand that if you want to power up your character there are numerous more cost effective ways to do it then going from a TR2->TR3. If you are to the point that doing another life is the best way to go about it, then enjoy the trip. Dont rush back to cap to get stuck in a loot grind.

[HungarianRhapsody]

No, I have a family and job, and I TR. But I don't expect it to take less then 4 months, and dont expect to be at cap quickly. What I am saying is that basing TRs on the idea that everyone should be able to do then, and get back to cap quickly is dumb. There is a ton of great content between 1-18. Enjoy it.


No, it makes no sense to make the bulk of xp in this game (1-18) obsolete by making TRs (or leveling in general) easy. I'm skipping alot of sub lv 10 quests on my double TR, not farming any quests (besides Deleras, I LOVE Deleras) If you have played for half a decade you would also understand that if you want to power up your character there are numerous more cost effective ways to do it then going from a TR2->TR3. If you are to the point that doing another life is the best way to go about it, then enjoy the trip. Dont rush back to cap to get stuck in a loot grind.

One thing that might help with both sides of that would be to do what a bunch of people have suggested in this thread - flatten the XP curve a bit by making the total XP for 2nd life remain the same as 2nd life is now and 3rd or later life the same as 3rd and later life is now, but require more XP at the lower levels so that you don't have 1 million XP still needed to get from 18 to 20.

That's not making TR easier. It's just making it less tedious and allowing us to enjoy the ride from 1 to 18 a little more while making 18 to 20 less onerous.

[inggold]

No, I have a family and job, and I TR. But I don't expect it to take less then 4 months, and dont expect to be at cap quickly. What I am saying is that basing TRs on the idea that everyone should be able to do then, and get back to cap quickly is dumb. There is a ton of great content between 1-18. Enjoy it.


No, it makes no sense to make the bulk of xp in this game (1-18) obsolete by making TRs (or leveling in general) easy. I'm skipping alot of sub lv 10 quests on my double TR, not farming any quests (besides Deleras, I LOVE Deleras) If you have played for half a decade you would also understand that if you want to power up your character there are numerous more cost effective ways to do it then going from a TR2->TR3. If you are to the point that doing another life is the best way to go about it, then enjoy the trip. Dont rush back to cap to get stuck in a loot grind.

Yknow, I had this long post here and it was starting to just look like I was picking you apart. Not my intent to seem mean about it, so short and sweet, I'll just say three things, being:

My join date is 60 days from yours, and neither of us seem to have a half of decade of perspective. But I'm not sure it takes half a decade to know how important TR'ing can be to end builds?

TR'ing puts stacking bonuses to many things that can *never* be replicated via game gear, I cannot fathom how you could possibly say otherwise. You cannot replicate the spell DC bonuses, the spell penetration bonuses, the melee damage/DC/to hit bonuses, as anything you would try to use STACKS on the past lives.

I have to (well, don't *have* to, but am going to) go through a couple of lives in classes I've no interest in playing for those stacking bonuses - you can keep the trip for those lives, thanks! :P Grind is grind - whether it is levelling, or running for end game loot. You've no real right or authority to say one is better than the other for anyone except yourself.

[Cam_Neely]

Yknow, I had this long post here and it was starting to just look like I was picking you apart. Not my intent to seem mean about it, so short and sweet, I'll just say three things, being:

My join date is 60 days from yours, and neither of us seem to have a half of decade of perspective. But I'm not sure it takes half a decade to know how important TR'ing can be to end builds?

TR'ing puts stacking bonuses to many things that can *never* be replicated via game gear, I cannot fathom how you could possibly say otherwise. You cannot replicate the spell DC bonuses, the spell penetration bonuses, the melee damage/DC/to hit bonuses, as anything you would try to use STACKS on the past lives.

I have to (well, don't HAVE to, but am going to) go through a couple of lives in classes I've no interest in playing for those stacking bonuses - you can keep the trip for those lives, thanks! :P Grind is grind - whether it is levelling, or running for end game loot. You've no real right or authority to say one is better than the other for anyone except yourself.

Please feel free to pick me apart, as long as its constructive and you do not put words in my mouth.

Note that I never say
1.) You need five years of gaming experience to comment.
2.) TRs bonuses are not useful.
3.) That I should determine how you play.

Note that I do say
1.) TR bonuses are not needed. If you are not in a gaming position to get multiple TRs, then you should not expect to excel in Epic content, but have an epically fought battle. You are a hero, and there is tons of heroic stuff to do at end game.
2.) Those that play casually should not expect an easy or quick trip to TR2.
3.) Fully built TRed characters (ie 3x Wiz, Sorc, FvS, Barb past lives for a Wiz) should not be a goal for casual players. Likewise it should not be an easy (or even moderate) goal for even the most dedicated player.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Please feel free to pick me apart, as long as its constructive and you do not put words in my mouth.

Note that I never say
1.) You need five years of gaming experience to comment.
2.) TRs bonuses are not useful.
3.) That I should determine how you play.

Note that I do say
1.) TR bonuses are not needed. If you are not in a gaming position to get multiple TRs, then you should not expect to excel in Epic content, but have an epically fought battle. You are a hero, and there is tons of heroic stuff to do at end game.
2.) Those that play casually should not expect an easy or quick trip to TR2.
3.) Fully built TRed characters (ie 3x Wiz, Sorc, FvS, Barb past lives for a Wiz) should not be a goal for casual players. Likewise it should not be an easy (or even moderate) goal for even the most dedicated player.

Again, please define who is a casual player, in your opinion. Should not 3(+/-) hours/night be enough to pull TRs in a reasonable time frame (say, 3 weeks)?

[Cam_Neely]

Again, please define who is a casual player, in your opinion. Should not 3(+/-) hours/night be enough to pull TRs in a reasonable time frame (say, 3 weeks)?

Causal player is undefinable as you want it. IMO a combination of what your goals are and who the player at the keyboard is that will define if you are casual or not.

Want to be uber1337 caster in end game in one years time from start, and are a decent player? Not Casual
Want to be able to play 80% of the content in a competent way in one years time? Depends on the person behind the keyboard. Decent gamer, then yes, casual. Not? If no, not casual.

To step into how you want it defined, off the hip, I would say no, 21 hours is not casual. Should you get a (I'm going to assume you mean double) TR in 63 hours of group play? Depends on the player. A smart player with a strong group. Yes. A bad player trying to Pug? No.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Causal player is undefinable as you want it. IMO a combination of what your goals are and who the player at the keyboard is that will define if you are casual or not.

Want to be uber1337 caster in end game in one years time from start, and are a decent player? Not Casual
Want to be able to play 80% of the content in a competent way in one years time? Depends on the person behind the keyboard. Decent gamer, then yes, casual. Not? If no, not casual.

To step into how you want it defined, off the hip, I would say no, 21 hours is not casual. Should you get a (I'm going to assume you mean double) TR in 63 hours of group play? Depends on the player. A smart player with a strong group. Yes. A bad player trying to Pug? No.

I'm going to respectfully disagree in some respects.

1. "Casual" is solely a function of time. Someone who plays, say, 5 hours a week (regardless of goals and play style) is a casual player. Should Turbine gear the XP requirements for them? Unless they happen to be the majority (I don't know as I don't have their population stats), no. Should they gear the TR XP requirements for those who can play 10+ hours/day? I don't think so because I'm asumming (based on my in-game friends, guild roster, LFM panel) that not many people can afford 10+ hours/day of DDO. So, who should they gear TR XP requirements to? Their median-time users. If the median-time user plays, say, 5hours/night, gear the XP requirements so that it can be accomplished in, say, 100 hours (~20 days for these users).

2. Even the good, smart, skilled player cannot afford to pug. Too much risk, too little reward. That's why many people (including yours truly) avoid the general population and stick to friends, private channels and guildies. Even with a solid group, smart quest choices, 3 hours/night is not enough to cap a TR2 in about 3-4 weeks, specially the 1 mill XP required by level 18-19.

[Cam_Neely]

1. "Casual" is solely a function of time. Someone who plays, say, 5 hours a week (regardless of goals and play style) is a casual player. Should Turbine gear the XP requirements for them? Unless they happen to be the majority (I don't know as I don't have their population stats), no. Should they gear the TR XP requirements for those who can play 10+ hours/day? I don't think so because I'm asumming (based on my in-game friends, guild roster, LFM panel) that not many people can afford 10+ hours/day of DDO. So, who should they gear TR XP requirements to? Their median-time users. If the median-time user plays, say, 5hours/night, gear the XP requirements so that it can be accomplished in, say, 100 hours (~20 days for these users).

OK assume you are correct here and say 5 (can be any number) hours a week is casual and its a pure metric of time
Player A is a 'good' player. s/he understands how DDO works, asks questions about builds, and in general has a high dex score (quick fingers).
Player B is a 'bad' player. Does not bother to figure out how ddo builds go, and in general cant do more then hit the awsd and the left mouse button.
Which casual player should turbine then base their XP requirements by. Ive seen many causal players cover a first life faster then many less casual players.

Thats why I like to look at it (and I think Trubine should) that as a rule of thumb % of the population should be able to achieve specific mile stones. (No Im not saying set stuff upon actual metrics, just thats how the Dev should think. The 20% cream of the crop should be able to do this raid on epic ect...)


For 2.) Anyone can afford to pug, again depending on what their goals are. XP per min, then yes, you will typically solo. I avoid the general population, not due to XP issues, but for the same reason I avoid most random new people in life, I consider then Du$hes Would I accept the first 11 people that randomly showed up at my door for a party?

[ahpook]

I agree with the OP.

If it were my choice, I would change all lives to be on the same XP curve and dump the bravery bonus. Then I would handle the requirement to make TRs more challenging, by playing with the bonuses and repeat penalties.

For example,
1st TR: No first time bonus for normal or hard and running on normal or hard will invalidate first time bonus for elite. Repeat penalties kick in after 1 run instead of 3.

2nd (+) TR: No first time bonus for normal or hard and running on normal or hard will invalidate first time bonus for elite. Repeat penalties kick in after 1 run and are doubled. Running normal incurs -25% penalty and hard is a -10% penalty. Explorer XP is halved.

I haven't done "the math" to see if that provides the proper increase in "challenge" but I think something like this would work to encourage a diverse set of quests run on elite for TRs. It has the benefit that a 1st lifer and 2nd TR can level at the same time as long as they are running the right quests. It might have a "negative" impact of not encouraging as many store sales. I doubt Turbine would ever look at this model for that reason.

[Dexxaan]

Well, while I feel that the xp requirements are indeed steep, and I'm solidly in the "I only get so many hours to play" group, I DO feel like Turbine has recognized this already.

By putting in bravery bonus, and the mechanic to open quests on a more difficult level right off as a TR, they HAVE alleviated a portion of the grind. I never did a TR before the bravery bonus was implemented. Probably wouldn't ever have TR'd..

Now that they have added tome retention, and the bravery bonus is going strong, I'd have to say they're doing very well. If their intention was to make TR'ing more attractive, then they succeeded in my eyes.

/QFT

Now the 10% loss from having to PUG a certain quest or 2 can be VERY annoying, and I suggest you look at MyDDO for Stats / gear and make a decision. I pug an awful lot and soon enough you become a pro filtering unit of disaster-carrying mobs ... I mean players.


An idea that came to mind is that for every 10 (first time elite) quests there could be an incremental Bonus XP amount to be had, and make it significant enough that the 17 - 20th level XP Mountain can be climbed a bit easier.

Just my 2 CP's

.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

An idea that came to mind is that for every 10 (first time elite) quests there could be an incremental Bonus XP amount to be had, and make it significant enough that the 17 - 20th level XP Mountain can be climbed a bit easier.

Just my 2 CP's

.

How about this: after a 50 elite streak, you can get the bravery up to 75%. After 100 goes up to 100%. That way there's more an incentive not to break it. I tried to keep my streak as far as I could (till lvl 17 in this life) Not because it was doing any good, but as a challenge. You get the same XP bonus from running 5 elites or 200. That's a bit borked specially in the latter levels when you need it most.