Another Look at TR XP requirements

[FengXian]

You actually enjoy the last 3 levels :') ?
Sick idea of fun.

I feel that there should be a way to keep playing beyond cap, and I think the TR system works perfectly. Is it grindy? Yes. Especially if you solo. If you're going for multiple past lives and want them fast, you'd better find a static group that's for sure.

But I'm against increasing PL benefits (balancing them, i.e. buffing SOME past lives would be ok tho), and against decreasing the time needed, simply because people who DON'T want to TR would be disadvantaged either way.

And 18-20 is no big deal if you consider that at 18 you can basically play any end game content except epics, especially guild raids and such. I do believe amrath and cannith quests need more xp tho.

Past lives are supposed to provide minor (yet not pointless) goodies to people that have time and will to grind the xp again and again. If you don't have the time or don't wanna grind, you can still play anything with a non-tr'd toon. I've seen a lot very good 1st life toons around, even some DC-based casters.
Although now many TR just because TR1 is actually fast and easy and definitely worth it even if you don't have much time.

[arkonas]

i still dont agree with any changes to the tr xp. just put out more high level content. to be honest once you get the tomes the raid gear and the epic items. there is nothing more left for a lot of people to do. they start to get bored.

so as long as turbine can release new epics new content new gear for all to get. then there will be never an issue of boredom. lets see what underdark has. heck even the new quests are level 16 i like that. i hope there will be a lot more to pick from.

[Aeolwind]

/not signed

Stating "I have a real life" is a poor argument, sorry. No one forces you to TR in the first place. You want the benefits but you don't want to pay the price :/

It would also be unfair to those people who grinded the heck out the game getting to 20+ past lives, too.

However I recall Turbine did say that they will make the leveling faster with the expansion. Which is not a good thing IMHO, leveling is already too fast here actually, you don't get to enjoy the low levels.

What could be done, actually, is tuning the xp curve so that people spend a little more time at low levels, but w/e.

Completionist is not for everyone, I wouldn't mind getting it but I don't feel bad without it. Not gonna play 24/7 that's for sure, but not gonna whine either

I'd +1 you for this but I can't. You and the OP aren't far off the same point.

[psi0nix]

/signed.

I would like to go for my 2nd TR, but as it stands it would leave me to play by myself, as the wife / friends etc, will not go beyond their 1st TR. As it is we have trouble playing with a 3rd TR that has been helping us to level / learn some quests, as we hit hard cap and he's not even half way through.

Now at lvl 18 hard capping at 20 then waiting for them to catch up. But there is not that much content at 17-20 that provides a "good" amount of XP.

Not when you look at places like necro / delera's - window farm / elitex1 normalx6 hardx1 gets you fairly close to 80k XP, (this is an estimate as I can't remember the exact number), but anyway, at level 18 now there are quests (hard ones) that your lucky to get 6k for, and it only goes down hill from there.

Some more content / more XP in the upper levels would surely be warrented to stop people from having to "grind" slayers and the like, I've even been told that if your not careful on 2nd / 3rd TR then you can actually get into a situation where you cannot cap as there is not enough XP in the game left, that's a bit poor.

Either drop the XP requirements in the upper levels or provide more xp for the upper level quests.

There should never be a situation where you "cannot" get any more XP.

[Theolin]

I would like to see something done to make it more reasonable.

My TRing ... now at the end of life 8 ....
I take about 2-3 months per TR I don't really rush but I do like to be efficient.

The issue I have is that the last Level 19-20 is a real grind fest ... takes me usually 1/3 of the total life time to do. Usually the first 13ish levels are about 1/3 the time 14-18 is 1/3 of the time as well.

I save Amarath, cannith, lord of eyes, & all of IQ for level 19 .... and then run most of them 3-4 times each that's 20ish quests repeatedly + 4 of the raids every 3 days just for 1 level, most every other level I can do a whole lot less quests to get some only require 5-10 others 10-20 but very few levels require 60+ quests in order to get through.

I like the just knock 500k off the TR2+ xp and/or add some XP to the high level quests, also smooth out the xp a bit I wouldn't mind spending a little longer at the lower level quests.

so /signed on something to make the back end better.

[karsion]

/signed.

I would like to go for my 2nd TR, but as it stands it would leave me to play by myself, as the wife / friends etc, will not go beyond their 1st TR. As it is we have trouble playing with a 3rd TR that has been helping us to level / learn some quests, as we hit hard cap and he's not even half way through.

Now at lvl 18 hard capping at 20 then waiting for them to catch up. But there is not that much content at 17-20 that provides a "good" amount of XP.

Not when you look at places like necro / delera's - window farm / elitex1 normalx6 hardx1 gets you fairly close to 80k XP, (this is an estimate as I can't remember the exact number), but anyway, at level 18 now there are quests (hard ones) that your lucky to get 6k for, and it only goes down hill from there.

Some more content / more XP in the upper levels would surely be warrented to stop people from having to "grind" slayers and the like, I've even been told that if your not careful on 2nd / 3rd TR then you can actually get into a situation where you cannot cap as there is not enough XP in the game left, that's a bit poor.

Either drop the XP requirements in the upper levels or provide more xp for the upper level quests.

There should never be a situation where you "cannot" get any more XP.

I believe it is highly unlikely that it was possible to cause a situation in which you could not level to cap. I am sure that with the addition of challenges it is impossible.

Nonetheless on 3rd+ life at level 17+ getting xp starts to become a chore and if you're not doing bravery and the streak it may take you a lot of grinding to get that last million or so. The problem is surely acknowledged by the devs as since Harbringer of Madness all the new quests are in the last five levels bracket. However as it is only possible to make so many new quests in a given time and some of the high level quests are rather weak on xp it might be a good idea to reconsider some xp rewards for them.

[FengXian]

I save Amarath, cannith, lord of eyes, & all of IQ for level 19 .... and then run most of them 3-4 times each that's 20ish quests repeatedly + 4 of the raids every 3 days just for 1 level, most every other level I can do a whole lot less quests to get some only require 5-10 others 10-20 but very few levels require 60+ quests in order to get through.

Should save RR...I always save it (maybe I'm a little overcautios when leveling but I don't think so). Monastery is crazy xp/min, kobold is very good too.

Used to be done w/o bravery, w/o madness chain, w/o cannith (not that cannith provides any good xp but still, that's another 2 raids you can run at 18). Pots on the right quests do help. If you're a semi-casual player (or anyway non-hardcore tr grinder) use festivals and other xp events. It's not as bad as it looks. Should it get any easier it would be too easy.

Another lv 16 pack incoming btw. Means quests you run at 18 for bb and then farm on hard...basically 18-20 content since most people go from 18 to 20 skipping 19.

[BDS]

Think they are on the mark as far as XP goes with a 2nd life toon. The main issue with 3rd life is that so much of the XP is on the back end. We need more quests at those levels and a number of them could benefit from getting a XP bump. With the challenges, LoB pack, and U13 pack coming out there is more content that hopefully things will continue to become less grindy when Underdark arrives.

Turbine has done a good job reworking the XP and TR process. With tome retention coming and the bravery bonus I see little reason not to TR all my toons at least once and I'll likely end up doing many of them several times.

[MRMechMan]

I've done TR2+ without necro4. I've done TR2+ without touching amrath OR IQ. It can be done. Would be nice if it wasn't such a huge pain in the arse though. Bravery helps but still need to grind the good ones 10-13X. Still, the system is flawed.

XP needed to level from 1 to 9? 552,500
XP needed to level from 19 to cap? 551,000

The shocking thing is that the xp/minute (what all TRs care about) is BETTER from 1-9 than 19-20 quests.

-Amrath with the exception of 1 quest (maybe2) gives awful XP.
-Cannith quests give such low XP that I first thought the devs were messing with TRs. Still not sure. DOUBLE THEM. 3/4/5k base XP is an insult to TRs everywhere. You could have helped us but you decided to stick it to us. For most TRs these quests aren't even on the map. The 10th run of kobold and monestary are better XP than these useless quests.
-Raids like HOX/VOD/shroud help but others like LOB/MA have stupidly low base XP (cannith pack, not a huge suprise). If someone completes an elite cannith raid when not yet capped they deserve more than 10-15k XP. That's like 1 shadow crypt run. They deserve 30k, minimum, maybe more.

Anyone find it troubling that a level 9 cakewalk of a 6min quest gives 50% more base XP than a level 20 raid that typically takes far, far longer and isn't a guaranteed success?

Why do TRs bank levels? You want to suck out all the XP you can get from shadow crypt/von3/sands/GH/necro4, because you know after monestary/kobold there are only a handful of quests that are decent XP (sins, bits of IQ)

Most of the harbor, house quests, deleras, fens, von, f2p lordsmarch chain, sands, GH and necro4 can be zerged by a good party at between 1k and 2k xp/minute.

Why do most 18+ level quests give the WORST xp right when TRs need it the MOST?

I think the 4.3 is OK. Could be shifted downward to 4mil flat maybe. Any lower would cheapen the acomplishment. There is plenty of XP in the game, they just need to change where it is, and they need to seriously buff the cannith quests and some of amrath. Monestary/Kobold are a good model of how much XP late game quests should give.

[sephiroth1084]

As an experiment, I decided to not repeat any quests on my barbarian's TR (2nd life, so not insane XP cap). No repetition of quests at all, Elite-only, and no significant level-holding (I held a level twice; once to get in a Titan run, and then for Reaver, though I did hit explorer zones a bit and hit a few of the challenges (one time each only).

I was able to cap with some quests still remaining undone in the 17-20 range, but not many, and I had to finish my way to cap from about half way through 19 without the elite streak. It ended up taking me about a month and a half to level, but it wasn't too bad. If I had been running big XP quests 2-4 times each, I could have cut that time by more than half, both due to getting more fast XP and to being able to group with fast-levelers for more than a single run through a quest.

Still, tacking on another million XP or so to that would have definitely made the process rather unbearable, as I absolutely would not have been able to level without repeating quests a lot, and abandoning my bravery streak would have been harder to stomach, I'd imagine, even though I only ran 4 quests after dropping it to cap.

[sephiroth1084]

I've done TR2+ without necro4. I've done TR2+ without touching amrath OR IQ. It can be done. Would be nice if it wasn't such a huge pain in the arse though. Bravery helps but still need to grind the good ones 10-13X. Still, the system is flawed.

XP needed to level from 1 to 9? 552,500
XP needed to level from 19 to cap? 551,000

The shocking thing is that the xp/minute (what all TRs care about) is BETTER from 1-9 than 19-20 quests.

-Amrath with the exception of 1 quest (maybe2) gives awful XP.
-Cannith quests give such low XP that I first thought the devs were messing with TRs. Still not sure. DOUBLE THEM. 3/4/5k base XP is an insult to TRs everywhere. You could have helped us but you decided to stick it to us. For most TRs these quests aren't even on the map. The 10th run of kobold and monestary are better XP than these useless quests.
-Raids like HOX/VOD/shroud help but others like LOB/MA have stupidly low base XP (cannith pack, not a huge suprise). If someone completes an elite cannith raid when not yet capped they deserve more than 10-15k XP. That's like 1 shadow crypt run. They deserve 30k, minimum, maybe more.

Anyone find it troubling that a level 9 cakewalk of a 6min quest gives 50% more base XP than a level 20 raid that typically takes far, far longer and isn't a guaranteed success?

Why do TRs bank levels? You want to suck out all the XP you can get from shadow crypt/von3/sands/GH/necro4, because you know after monestary/kobold there are only a handful of quests that are decent XP (sins, bits of IQ)

Most of the harbor, house quests, deleras, fens, von, f2p lordsmarch chain, sands, GH and necro4 can be zerged by a good party at between 1k and 2k xp/minute.

Why do most 18+ level quests give the WORST xp right when TRs need it the MOST?

I think the 4.3 is OK. Could be shifted downward to 4mil flat maybe. Any lower would cheapen the acomplishment. There is plenty of XP in the game, they just need to change where it is, and they need to seriously buff the cannith quests and some of amrath. Monestary/Kobold are a good model of how much XP late game quests should give.

Agreed.

And it is especially frustrating that the Cannith quests are incredibly challenging on elite, and don't at all reward you for that added difficulty.

[morticianjohn]

I've found that True Reincarnation has generated an "elite society" that primarily quests with members of said society and tends to avoid the public at large due solely to the XP needs of a True Reincarnate of 2 past lives or more.

Upon observance of the disparity of XP needs between the average Adventurer or Champion versus the XP need scaling of a True Reincarnate Legend, I found that the Legends are much harder hit than the Developers seem to realize. This generates a behavior of maximizing the XP per minute output, followed by the mentality that "If you're not good (pro) enough, you leave." This problem can be exponentially increased by adding a third tier of Reincarnation with even heavier XP needs than a Legend, or significantly reduced by adjusting either XP output in game upward or the XP needs for a Legend downward. Obviously, adjusting the in-game XP upward would be problematic (at best).

Rather than having a scaling XP debt of 10% (Level 1), 30%, 30%, 40%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (Level 10) and so on until level 20's total XP penalty of 231% (1.9m vs 4.3785m), I request a more lenient system that permits those with a family, school, children and the like a better opportunity to enjoy a Reincarnate. The Hero XP needs are just right for a TR, but a little too low for a 6x or so reincarnate (level 17-20 should not require over 1.5 million xp, however. That's just extremely excessive. If the total must remain such a monstrous requirement, spread the XP need per level out a bit! Make it a straight line instead of a curved spike)

I expect extreme resistance to this idea from the metagaming crowd. I shudder to put this on the forums, given extensive past experience. I feel it needs to be addressed and I will not lurk this thread to back the idea up with random unnecessary clarification to put down the wild and wacky ideas that I expect to see crop up.

I also expect little to no representation whatsoever for/from the in-game crowd. I put this in Lama forums due to the general public in the Suggestion/General threads.

I totally agree. Right now I'm leveling a legend. I'm doing each quest on elite and I'm at lvl 7 (ready to level up to 8)and I still have not completed all lvl 5 quests on elite. I recently did bloody crypt and got 20k xp and yet I know when I hit level 18 or 19 and am running amrath I will not get that much XP from weapons shipment and wrath of flame even though they are much more difficult and take approximately the same amount of time. I might not even get 20k xp from bastion of power and that is an extremely long and difficult quest.

Point is why are you putting all of my highest xp requirements to level (17-20) at the back end when there is less content and less xp per quest. I would not mind spending another 50k xp at lvl 7 if it meant 50k less on the back end.

[Vindraxx]

While I disagree with the OP on a lot of his points and I am only currently working on my first second life character, I strongly agree with many of the previous posters that the upper level quests (in particular Cannith and Amrath) should award more XP. These quests on elite are miles away more challenging than anything during the lower levels (and often longer) and there are numerous lower level quests which reward better. Upping the base experience on these quests would drastically help make in making these quests as viable options for grinding for exp (rather than being run once for bonus then ignored). This will help until there is excessive amounts of high end content that players can choose from to cap their 3rd life + toons.

Lastly, I get why XP is backloaded so that your character has access to most of his abilities and prestige options. That makes sense to me as if I was stuck using the eternal wand of fire for 400,000 XP that would probably make me want to kill a kitten.

[mobrien316]

What exactly is the reasoning for making the XP requirements so top heavy? Is there a specific reason why it takes so much more XP to get from 18-20 than it does to go from 1-10?

On a 3rd life, it takes 723,500 to reach level 10. It takes 1,055,000 to get from 18 to 20.

Is there a reason for this that anyone knows of?


Since there are so many high-XP quests at lower levels (levels 7-9 come to mind) why can't they level out the XP requirements a bit? If they keep cap requirements at 4.4 million, can they spread that out a bit more evenly over 20 levels?

[Arlathen]

I've found that True Reincarnation has generated an "elite society" that primarily quests with members of said society and tends to avoid the public at large due solely to the XP needs of a True Reincarnate of 2 past lives or more.

Upon observance of the disparity of XP needs between the average Adventurer or Champion versus the XP need scaling of a True Reincarnate Legend, I found that the Legends are much harder hit than the Developers seem to realize. This generates a behavior of maximizing the XP per minute output, followed by the mentality that "If you're not good (pro) enough, you leave." This problem can be exponentially increased by adding a third tier of Reincarnation with even heavier XP needs than a Legend, or significantly reduced by adjusting either XP output in game upward or the XP needs for a Legend downward. Obviously, adjusting the in-game XP upward would be problematic (at best).

Rather than having a scaling XP debt of 10% (Level 1), 30%, 30%, 40%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (Level 10) and so on until level 20's total XP penalty of 231% (1.9m vs 4.3785m), I request a more lenient system that permits those with a family, school, children and the like a better opportunity to enjoy a Reincarnate. The Hero XP needs are just right for a TR, but a little too low for a 6x or so reincarnate (level 17-20 should not require over 1.5 million xp, however. That's just extremely excessive. If the total must remain such a monstrous requirement, spread the XP need per level out a bit! Make it a straight line instead of a curved spike)

I expect extreme resistance to this idea from the metagaming crowd. I shudder to put this on the forums, given extensive past experience. I feel it needs to be addressed and I will not lurk this thread to back the idea up with random unnecessary clarification to put down the wild and wacky ideas that I expect to see crop up.

I also expect little to no representation whatsoever for/from the in-game crowd. I put this in Lama forums due to the general public in the Suggestion/General threads.

I can only agree with you.

As someone with family and children...

/signed

And /Double-Signed, for exactly the same reasons.

[MRMechMan]

When someone asks me if we should keep going and do repeats 10-12 on a farming run I always pause and consider the alternative.

A few more 1-2minute runs of an easy quest that we've been running like clockwork?

Or an extra 1500 vale slayers when level 18 and everything is drained.

Easy call, even when those first lifers are getting bored and starting to whine even when the 10th repeat was 1k/min :/

The level 19 cannith quests giving comparable XP/min to korthos is beyond shameful.

[elraido]

I haven't read all the responses....but one thing I have noticed is:

It depends on what class you are playing. Casters, getting the elite streak going etc and it isn't a huge huge grind. But with a Melee, that is a different story if you want to solo some stuff.

[justagame]

Like a few others, I have no problem with the total xp required. However:

1. It's a bit too back-loaded, as others have pointed out. It should be smoothed out a little, IMO. This would address both the issue of blowing through the lower levels before you've run much of the content, and of having to endlessly repeat stuff at the higher levels

2. IMO, Amrath, IQ, and Cannith have are too low in XP for the challenge/time required, especially on higher difficulties.

[azrael4h]

Like a few others, I have no problem with the total xp required. However:

1. It's a bit too back-loaded, as others have pointed out. It should be smoothed out a little, IMO. This would address both the issue of blowing through the lower levels before you've run much of the content, and of having to endlessly repeat stuff at the higher levels

2. IMO, Amrath, IQ, and Cannith have are too low in XP for the challenge/time required, especially on higher difficulties.

While I agree that the 18-20 stuff we have is rather xp-poor and should be revisited, the main cause of grind, or repetition of the current end game stuff, is the lack of it. U13 will add some L16-18 stuff, which will probably be saved for L18 characters running elites and farming the heck out of it. But we need a) all L16+ quests revisited in XP gains, with the exception of Vale stuff, most of it gives far too little for the investment and b) more L16+ stuff to play. Thankfully, b is being looked at more likely with the expansion.

[Postumus]

I've found that True Reincarnation has generated an "elite society" that primarily quests with members of said society and tends to avoid the public at large due solely to the XP needs of a True Reincarnate of 2 past lives or more.

This has not been my experience when I PUG. Do you have any data to back up your anecdotal observations?

I do think if there was a way to front load the added xp cost so the last few levels weren't so onerous, that might make the TR experience less tedious at the end.