Niv's 2-birds-1-stone how to fix AC and caster > melee problems

[Niv-mizzet]

First off, let's identify the problems.

1. in 99% of the game's content, a good caster can take the spot of a good melee, and do better.

2. AC is near-pointless for most builds, and other than getting hit 95% of the time, there is no downside for dropping it completely.

These seem like separate problems, I know. But they're far closer linked than you might think.

Casters should be (and are) more POWERFUL than non-casters. HOWEVER, their power is SUPPOSED to come at a price. They are intended to be FRAGILE. In PnP, the difference between their low hit-die and the next guy's higher hit die makes this difference notable. In DDO, there are more effects overall that grant additional hp, from favor rewards to false life and green steel etc., that benefit both casters and non by the same amount, and therefore, the split between their hp amounts becomes smaller (relatively.)

Now consider the 2nd issue in conjunction with that. The non-caster who is barely less fragile than the caster hp-wise most likely DOES NOT have the AC to mitigate any damage in content challenging for his level (past level 12ish), and thus, can drop as fast as the caster, but has less power to show for his fragility. However, it is important to note here that most of these non-casters can "accidentally" obtain moderate, albeit currently useless, AC values, thanks to things such as building for two weapon fighting, wearing armor, getting passive bonuses from class, prestige, or stance, etc.

It is not the POWER of the caster that is currently placing them ahead of non-casters. It is the fact that they have managed to completely mitigate the COST of being a caster. The largest offender of this is amazing self-healing, such as quickened heals, reconstructs, and negative energy bursts. Whether you stop yourself from taking damage in the first place, or simply deal with the damage after you take it, you have achieved near-perfect damage mitigation. And casters have that territory conquered at the moment. They may simply build towards having "just enough" hp to last between self-heals, and you CANNOT drop them as long as their blue bar has blue left in it.

Now then, we see the problem. Casters are getting what they should get, but without paying what they should pay for it. For the solution, we look at some of the situations where casters DON'T take over, and see why: Big bad hitter raid bosses. Guys that can deal enough damage in 3-5 seconds to overpower the caster's self-healing. There are only a few of these in the game, and they are where you finally want a near 4-digit hp tank that can last between cleric heals, or one that actually mitigates the damage by not taking most of it.

OK so we've gone over what we know, yet again. Time for the fix.

- Add a damage multiplier, applied after DR and other such mitigations, whenever an attacker beats the defender's AC by an obscene amount.

Example numbers: 20% extra for exceeding the target's AC by 20, 40% for beating it by 40, 60% for trouncing it by 60, and so on...

First let's look at this at the intended section of the game, end-game. Let's say we have an epic raid boss with a +90 attack, that hits on average for 100 damage.

Against one of those psycho guys that ACTUALLY MANAGED to get their AC that high? No change.
One of those guys that got decent AC for non-epics? Like the 70's range? +20% damage.
The 50's range is +40%.
Guys all the way down in the 30's range? +60%
And finally those casters that have 10 AC? +80% 180ish per hit. Given a typical boss attack speed, I'm fairly certain I would NOT be able to stand up to that punishment with quickened recon on my Warforged Sorcerer.

Now let's drop down to an example non-epic raid boss, with say, +50 attack and 70 average damage.
epic tanks, high end non-epic tanks, and even guys down at 50, which is achievable without being tank focused, experience no change to their current damage. The guy exactly at 50 would take 20% more damage whenever the boss rolled a nat 20, but thats about it.
30's are +20% yeah yeah
and the 10 ac casters take +40%, so about 98 average. While this number per hit is certainly not deadly to many end-game casters, it does start to approach the territory of "quite irritating," forcing them to hit their self-heal more often, and thus use up SP faster for doing something they really shouldn't be: being the guy getting hit.

While the raid boss situation isn't all that impressive, rethink those same bonuses on say, a troupe of devils in Shavarath with their wonderful attack bonus, against a caster doing the typical caster thing and soloing the quest.

Now for the lower levels.
Low ac builds would experience a good deal of extra damage in the vale and gianthold, but as you go lower in the game, the amount of enemies who can defeat your AC by an amount necessary to net bonus damage becomes very slim. To the point that even a 10 AC character in the first few levels probably won't experience it.

While the numbers above are guesstimates, I believe the general premise to be promising. The goal is to push casters back out of the tank territory by making it less efficient (and at the high-end, less possible,) without flat-out forbidding it (casters could make builds with some concessions for AC), and without damaging melee as much. Seeing as how most melee, thanks to their armor or wisdom, class features, and the like, can hit moderate AC without any real concessions away from their build, a system punishing super-low AC seems the best way to do it.

There are also 2 side-notes.

1. Applying this system to the players would be another advantage to non-casters. Players could then deal bonus damage for defeating an enemy's AC by a significant amount. This could make to-hit bonuses more tantalizing, as the only consideration now is "do I hit on a 2?" And seeing as how casters don't make attack rolls, they don't really benefit from this. They would however make **** sure all the melee are GH'd and hasted for +5 to-hit, possibly pushing some melee over the edge of the damage bonus. Symbiotic relationships between classes are good!

2. This suggestion would most likely put quite a few people in the position where they want to LR/GR to fix their character to account for it. While this is something I WOULD like to avoid normally, I realized something earlier today. We're about to have all our enhancements reset and changed. People are about to be thrown into that situation whether this suggestion goes through or not. That would be an excellent time to fix a long-broken mechanic that is causing such imbalance between two main character types.

Welp, there you go. I'm sure I'll be kicking myself when I can't use my warforged sorc to solo everything ever later, but I believe that I shouldn't be able to. At least not so easily.

[HarveyMilk]

I've posted a similar suggestion, as have others. They tend to get shot down for the same reasons all 'nerfs' to caster survivability get shot down, namely, it hurts non-ac melee builds too much, and will actually encourage more caster kiting.

[mute_mayhem]

Ironically, this suggestion would hurt barbarians and other low-ac melees more than self healing casters...

[Niv-mizzet]

it hurts non-ac melee builds too much,

Perhaps its necessary and about time for non-ac builds to "take it to the face" for the overall greater good?

As I said, whether anyone wants it or not, a time when they WILL want to respec and re-evaluate their character is coming with the advent of the new enhancements. This could be a convenient time for those builds to follow suit.

I believe "dumping AC" being virtually harmless is the core root of the problem. And I believe the caster issue will be around until either that core part of the problem is fixed, or all heals become 'other-only,' which is definately something I don't wanna see.

[grodon9999]

Ironically, this suggestion would hurt barbarians and other low-ac melees more than self healing casters...

Agreed.

As much of an AC-***** as I am . . . I don't think it should ever be REQUIRED that toons have AC as it's a bit of a pain to build for and some toons just can't get any no matter how hard they try.

No changes need to punish casters or low-AC melees.

[Thrudh]

First off, let's identify the problems.

1. in 99% of the game's content, a good caster can take the spot of a good melee, and do better.

2. AC is near-pointless for most builds, and other than getting hit 95% of the time, there is no downside for dropping it completely.

I don't agree with your assesment of the problems. The two statements above are not accurate.

[sephiroth1084]

Cleric/monk 2 builds ends up taking way less damage than barbarians, and many other melees. In fact, the 2 monk splash probably ends up becoming far more prevalent on any character able to pick it up just to help reach a better AC threshold.

With AC being so highly dependent upon gear all this does is force more characters to grind for AC items, while still getting hit by everything at end game on a 2+ all the time anyway. That's not a healthy adjustment to the game.

[Niv-mizzet]

I don't think it should ever be REQUIRED that toons have AC

It wouldn't be? At no point in the idea did AC become "required." It just hurts more for not having it IF YOU'RE THE GUY BEING HIT. I should not be able to stand next to a 50 AC paladin on an 8 AC raging barb and take the same damage as him. (less actually, considering barbarian DR!)

Man you guys are negative. Shoulda put "constructive comments only please."

Here's one: Barbarian DR significantly cuts down bonus damage from low AC. To a maximum of totally negating it at their final point of DR.

Bam.

What other class aside from barbarian has a really good excuse for getting no AC from anywhere?

[voodoogroves]

It isn't quite as simple.

I know I'm not the majority, but I don't see SP-based self-healing as the problem. More than pure casters can do it, and when people bring it up they invariably talk about WF arcanes ... which are *clearly* on the decline. A high-amp human sorc w/ a wand can tank nearly as freaking well.

- Defenses and damage avoidance WHEN STANDING STILL is too easy for a caster. Shield Mastery is too effective, possibly an adjustment to Quicken
- DoTs scale too high, too easily with little investment. Maybe change the scale on the AP lines, their base damage or their stacking characteristics (I don't think a save alone will do it)
- Casters need to be tripped, stunned, etc more. Period. Not just hamstring and wacky elemental grabs/knockdowns. Hitting a non-AC barb with an attack that has a STR check or Fort save is going to be different than smacking a caster. Barb should stand, caster should run a risk of falling / being dazed / whatever.
- Casters need to pull more initial threat/aggro from epic mobs.

[furbyoats]

barbs get shafted in the process. Also, if you maintain a damage bonus for beating a certain AC value then power attack may become useless as the 5 to hit may beat the 5 damage.

[Niv-mizzet]

It isn't quite as simple.

I know I'm not the majority, but I don't see SP-based self-healing as the problem. More than pure casters can do it, and when people bring it up they invariably talk about WF arcanes ... which are *clearly* on the decline. A high-amp human sorc w/ a wand can tank nearly as freaking well.

- Defenses and damage avoidance WHEN STANDING STILL is too easy for a caster. Shield Mastery is too effective, possibly an adjustment to Quicken
- DoTs scale too high, too easily with little investment. Maybe change the scale on the AP lines, their base damage or their stacking characteristics (I don't think a save alone will do it)
- Casters need to be tripped, stunned, etc more. Period. Not just hamstring and wacky elemental grabs/knockdowns. Hitting a non-AC barb with an attack that has a STR check or Fort save is going to be different than smacking a caster. Barb should stand, caster should run a risk of falling / being dazed / whatever.
- Casters need to pull more initial threat/aggro from epic mobs.

+1 for constructive posting, even if you disagree on some things!

-for the "unusual suspects" self-healing arcanes like fleshy sorcs (I still consider them unusual, but they're by no means excessively rare) the "you get hit harder for having no AC" should hopefully bring them down a bit from tanking what they shouldn't be.

-the first issue is all stuff I went over. Shield mastery would still be good, but they'd want to get hit less. I really don't like the idea of quicken changing. I'd probably drop it for another toughness in a heartbeat if it did. (except maybe more sp cost, I could live with that.)

-dots....im not gonna pretend to know what to do about the dots... they're just **** good.

-I agree whole-heartedly here. How stupid does Suulomades have to be to not think of just shoving me on the ground when im tanking him with spells? He's like 4 times my size and I have 8 strength!

-Dunno how i feel about the initial "i hate you for being a caster before you've done anything" part.

[redspecter23]

I agree at least partially with the problem assessment. I wouldn't go so far as to say that in 99% of content caster is strictly better than melee. Certainly in many aspects of the endgame it seems that way though.

I do agree that AC is near pointless for most builds, again if you're referring to endgame of course. Throughout the course of leveling up, most builds can attain a reasonable AC if they wish to up until around level 16 or so. It's certainly much harder for some than others, but it can be done. At epic endgame very, very few people can keep both a reasonable AC and still be worth the party slot more than someone else with 0 AC but more offensive abilities.

That being said, I like the proposal partially. It could be part of a much larger change, but on it's own, it does have flaws. It would force certain classes into roles they aren't used to playing. Barbarians would take on a more pure striker role and lose much of their desirability for tanking. A barbarian, properly equipped, could still tank and be reasonable at it, if he chose to give up raging for that fight. The use of rages would be saved for when the barb was hitting the back of a mob and not drawing aggro. The barb would be looking to lower his threat % in those situations, and fight in a way similar to how rogues fight now.

The biggest problem is that casters could still gear out to have mid range AC and lose very few of their biggest bonuses while still maintaining all their defensive bonuses like self healing. (I'm looking directly at challenge gear like bracers of wind, cloak of flames and frozen tunic here. great caster abilities and AC to boot) Add in the fact that kiting classes just plain get hit much less than those that have to melee and you have casters still being on top of the defensive totem pole. I think you have to answer the imbalance between toons that can kill from afar and those that have to do so in close combat. Increasing vulnerability to melee attacks (in general, of course there will be ranged to worry about still) will not hinder the classes that don't get into melee combat as much, such as casters.

Edit, the use of fort save "freeze in place" abilities and spells like flesh to stone could be used to great effect to bridge the gap. Problem is that won't effect warforged, but similar effects to this that specifically target weak points in a caster's defense and force them to be still for even a few seconds are absolutely devastating. Just look at the trash kiting at the end of epic Lord of Blades to see how a weak fort save could theoretically ruin your day if you were fleshy.

[Niv-mizzet]

barbs get shafted in the process. Also, if you maintain a damage bonus for beating a certain AC value then power attack may become useless as the 5 to hit may beat the 5 damage.

put a solution for barbs to not take caster-ac damage in a later post. As for power attack....

If you hit average damage 60 against a 100% fort target (if someone else cares to check on crits, they can, im just looking at the base) and you hit the +20% mark on a 2, you end up dealing 1368 out of 20 rolls, (1 miss, obviously.)

If you turn on power attack, hit for average 70, and you hit the 20% mark on rolling a 7 now, you deal 1526 out of 20 rolls with 1 miss.

I won't pretend to have math'd out all the possibilities for power attack's mechanic in conjunction with this, but in general power attack will be better until you get to absurdly high values. And even if the point at which it gets worse is within player reach, I'm sure it could be fixed somehow.

[dotHackSign]

I understand your frustration with AC, I've posted a few things recently to add damage mitigation based on armor type. Something like a % absorption in addition to the existing benefits similar to the shield mastery feat. Giving this to melees at higher levels would help make them more robust which I agree is an issue now.

You could also try giving melees double HP benefits from HP boosting items/spells. Kinda like FVS, sorcs get twice the spell points for some things.

I'd be afraid that using AC as you suggest would just cause melees to all re-spec for high AC and high to-hit as damage bonuses would become less meaningful. This would also require everyone to grind similar equipment so it might discourage variety.

I do think the post for more trips, stuns, ect... was a good point.

[redspecter23]

You could also try giving melees double HP benefits from HP boosting items/spells. Kinda like FVS, sorcs get twice the spell points for some things.

I think that could be a great area of exploration. Give double hp from items to barbarians, paladins and fighters, 50% to rangers, rogues and monks. Have it scale to a % like how a 2 sorc/18 fighter would only get a 10% bonus to sp from items instead of the full 100%. As mentioned above, the tanking classes need to pull ahead of non traditional tanks in that particular role and boosting hp helps a bit.

[Niv-mizzet]

whole bunch of stuff

another +1 for constructive posting!

Yes I am largely talking about end game. As I said, I wanted a change that would help at end-game where things have spiral'd out of control, while not affecting the mid or low-game that much.

As for barbs, from earlier:

"Here's one: Barbarian DR significantly cuts down bonus damage from low AC. To a maximum of totally negating it at their final point of DR."

I think barbs are really about the only melee that would take severe offense to taking extra damage for super-low AC (handled above). Everyone else should be able to beat out a caster's AC significantly just by virtue of proficiencies with better armor, class features, etc. I know I have a tempest and an earth monk both who "accidentally" achieved 40ish to 50ish AC with no effort or forethought. I'm certain they could go higher if I cared to put anything on "for the AC."

[redspecter23]

another +1 for constructive posting!

Yes I am largely talking about end game. As I said, I wanted a change that would help at end-game where things have spiral'd out of control, while not affecting the mid or low-game that much.

As for barbs, from earlier:

"Here's one: Barbarian DR significantly cuts down bonus damage from low AC. To a maximum of totally negating it at their final point of DR."

I think barbs are really about the only melee that would take severe offense to taking extra damage for super-low AC (handled above). Everyone else should be able to beat out a caster's AC significantly just by virtue of proficiencies with better armor, class features, etc. I know I have a tempest and an earth monk both who "accidentally" achieved 40ish to 50ish AC with no effort or forethought. I'm certain they could go higher if I cared to put anything on "for the AC."

Sorry, I originally missed the barb note earlier. My personal opinion on that is that barbs should be able to get a % DR based on their inherent static DR. That would essentially offset the increased damage they might take based on your suggestion. Perhaps 5% stackable DR per point of DR? So up to 25% at level 18. Use of enhancements and even the vastly underused DR boost enhancement could get your %DR up to very decent numbers, even if just for defensive bursts like when they draw unwanted aggro. Monks got this nice boost with the change to earth stance. I think barbs should get in on the fun too.

[Krago]

First off, let's identify the problems.

1. in 99% of the game's content, a good caster can take the spot of a good melee, and do better.

2. AC is near-pointless for most builds, and other than getting hit 95% of the time, there is no downside for dropping it completely.

*snip*

Great idea but you did not solve any of the initial problems. AC is still pointless as the to-hit modifiers of mobs are obscene. So only your epically tanked toons potentially take normal damage, everyone else is one-shot. Until AC matters, #1 will remain prevalent.

[redspecter23]

Great idea but you did not solve any of the initial problems. AC is still pointless as the to-hit modifiers of mobs are obscene. So only your epically tanked toons potentially take normal damage, everyone else is one-shot. Until AC matters, #1 will remain prevalent.

That is one of the issues I was worried about. The epic Velah fight in particular would ding many folks. You think the rogue hate is high now. Wait until Velah gets +60% - +100% damage against anyone with under an insane AC. There are solutions to this of course, but the point is clear. The AC issues we have now, would simply be compounded unless there were other changes as well as the OP proposal.

[Niv-mizzet]

So only your epically tanked toons potentially take normal damage, everyone else is one-shot.

+20% != one-shot.

even +60% != one-shot.

And if your AC is getting beaten by 60...well...

Also in conjunction with this, MAYBE outrageous to-hits of enemies in epics and the like could be brought further in line.

Additionally, the 20% per 20 points value, again, is a placeholder for a real value. It doesn't even have to scale evenly. It could spike upwards when the enemy is beating your AC by quadruple its value or something!