To all you PUG VOD leaders:

[biggin]

I know you advertised Hard in the LFM. But you may want to reconsider when:

-3 out of 12 go to Hound and get killed by the beholder on the other side of the portal
-5 out of 12 die on the way to the quest........ after it's been cleared

We will not hold it against you if you realize that the group you put together might not make it through Tempest Spine much less VOD. It happens. But also don't hold it against me when the conversation goes like this:

Me:you may want to reconsider running this on hard
PL: but i want +3 tomes, you can't get those on normal
Me: you get even less +3 tomes when you fail. just think about the trouble people had getting here (myself and a friend watched 30 minutes tick off our ship buffs waiting for everyone)
PL: in on hard

I won't even get into specifics, but I can tell you this. When the experienced members of your party tell you to run it at a lower difficulty, don't get bent out of shape when they won't help cover the 30+ pot count at the end. VOD is easily completeable by a handful of decent players barely paying attention. If you don't even have a handful of decent players in your group than swallow the pride and just get it done.

[DrawingGuy]

Look, it's not my fault that you didn't clear the mobs at the bottom level for when I fell off. Plus I'm pretty sure HoX is the only quest in Subterrane.

[Mrmorphling]

You mean i can't use the remove curse wand when madstoned!?!? Bug/Hax/Cheat and i need no *bleeping* DR breaker as my *insert uber weapon* is more than enough.

[Viisari]

Why do I always miss these runs :<

[biggin]

It just amazes me the amount of "Hard, VOD, selective" LFM's you see and yet when you join to help out, 8 of 11 people are dead and need you to go easter egg/soulstone hunting. What exactly was the selection process?

[DrNuegebauer]

I won't even get into specifics, but I can tell you this. When the experienced members of your party tell you to run it at a lower difficulty, don't get bent out of shape when they won't help cover the 30+ pot count at the end. VOD is easily completeable by a handful of decent players barely paying attention. If you don't even have a handful of decent players in your group than swallow the pride and just get it done.

Ok bigg, so you died 3 times running to Hound instead, then 5 times running to VoD - the only question I want answered is: what did the experienced members of the party say to the guy?????

[Ssdprref]

Had a similar experience in a HoX, I set normal because I only wanted the completion, then I started getting monk applications, after the 5th monk, I typed in chat, "You peeps know that handwraps only drop on hard and leet right".

None answer so I thought we were cool. Last spot we needed was a tank. I set LFM for Intim/fog tank. Luckily we get a nice-geared one. We start making the run and after the 3rd portal he types,"I'm not doing this on normal", to his comments the whole bunch of monks start whining about how come we should do hard.
I only replied that the PUG was gimped, and that I only wanted completion, the Divine Casters were on my side but they insisted.
They agree on doing hard. After clearing the beholders room, we shrine and I enter on normal.Then the bings.

Who entered normal.
Omg blah blah blah
We said Hard.
I ended up telling them that you can't just go in a LFM and try to change the setting. And it applies to both side either harder or easier.

*Both healers were amazing and well geared.*

[Nouda_EU]

OT: Doesnt VoD normal drop tomes?

[Bunker]

I've been pugging out VoD runs the past few weeks. Reason for pugging has been due to the time. (12-2am est) There are just not that many gamers online around that time.

I couldn't stop laughing when I read this, since I think I died on the way to the quest last time we ran it. We still got it done.

[Memek]

30+ pot count for VoD Hard or lower isnt the leader's fault. It's the healers going into a frenzy.

Joined a VoD Hard once. Leader was a guy i knew somewhat well from Keeper and who had healed my gimp butt through a lot of epics on Thelanis too. Group wiped on the way to the raid (actually on the puzzle). Normally i'd have told them that a group that cant reach the raid should run Normal but he was streaking so we reformed. Told them that if they take damage from the boss without having aggro, i'd let gladly let them die-Other healer agreed. Used scrolls from the start. Completed without an issue.

I had a few such occurances on Keeper before. Told them i'd let them die, 1 or 2 died in the cleaving area, suddenly melee became very disciplined. You step your foot down as the healer or half the group will fight in the cleaving area and hope to enjoy their bouncing HP bars. Once a few guys have died, the rest will get in line.
You just have to have the foot firmly on the break, and nothing will go wrong.

VoD is the proving ground for a healer. Let those die, who step out of line.
Let. Them. Die. Healer's 1st lesson.

[biggin]

And I've died more than once on the way to VoD. Hell, I've probably lost more plat in the Subt due to repair bills than some players will ever earn. The difference is that luckily I was the single ****** being drug along. You can get away with one Biggin in your Hard Vod, no problem. You may intentionally raise me 30 times during said raid only to place bets on how I will possibly be killed the next time. It help breaks up the monotony. But if you get 8 Biggins, either have the sense to recall and save yourself the hassle or realize that we may not be ready for Hard.

To ssdprref: good divines are worth their weight in gold. We had 2: one I never heard of and one that as soon as he joined there was a collective "holy ****, we're doomed" shouted in party.

To Dr: quiet please, the real story isn't as good as the one I just told.

[biggin]

30+ pot count for VoD Hard or lower isnt the leader's fault. It's the healers going into a frenzy.

Joined a VoD Hard once. Leader was a guy i knew somewhat well from Keeper and who had healed my gimp butt through a lot of epics on Thelanis too. Group wiped on the way to the raid (actually on the puzzle). Normally i'd have told them that a group that cant reach the raid should run Normal but he was streaking so we reformed. Told them that if they take damage from the boss without having aggro, i'd let gladly let them die-Other healer agreed. Used scrolls from the start. Completed without an issue.

I had a few such occurances on Keeper before. Told them i'd let them die, 1 or 2 died in the cleaving area, suddenly melee became very disciplined. You step your foot down as the healer or half the group will fight in the cleaving area and hope to enjoy their bouncing HP bars. Once a few guys have died, the rest will get in line.
You just have to have the foot firmly on the break, and nothing will go wrong.

VoD is the proving ground for a healer. Let those die, who step out of line.
Let. Them. Die. Healer's 1st lesson.

And here is where we disagree: it's the PL who selects the divines. The divines may 'set down the law', but it's the PL's responsibility to get divines who do that.

It reminds me when I first started running with Ranit. He always put together great groups and it seemed (to me at least) that 0 pots was always the goal. It didn't matter if it was Rainbow in the Dark or you were solo healing a Hard ToD, you did not use pots unless there was some sort of server glitch. And he stayed on your *** about it. You didn't overheal or sure as the sun comes up tomorrow he would let you know to slow down. He took it as his responsibility to set up groups that could complete whatever content they were walking into with no resources.

Again, I don't want it to seem as if I'm knocking new players or that if you die on the way to VoD you aren't worthy to run the raid. PL's need to just be more realistic about the skill sets of the party as a whole or instead of 'selective' LFM's go back to '5 pot buy in' LFM's.

[Ssdprref]

To ssdprref: good divines are worth their weight in gold. We had 2: one I never heard of and one that as soon as he joined there was a collective "holy ****, we're doomed" shouted in party.

Indeed they are. I fully understand your position. Btw did you guys pulled this one?. It may sound conformist but many healers enjoy wasting their Mnemonics, I said this because they either learn how to throw their heals or pay the price. I can tell since the moment I join a party how many pots I'll have to use.

[biggin]

Indeed they are. I fully understand your position. Btw did you guys pulled this one?. It may sound conformist but many healers enjoy wasting their Mnemonics, I said this because they either learn how to throw their heals or pay the price. I can tell since the moment I join a party how many pots I'll have to use.

First healer who I did not know may have had some on him. Second healer, FVS, was out of SP at about 70%-80% of boss' health, and that was with 2 cc wizzy's (and before even 5 devils had spawned). I know for a fact that he didn't bring any with him because they were some comments made by a few in the group. The group as a whole didn't take that much damage during the Orthon fight, maybe more than ususal but nothing that bad.

I'm with you on this one though. If you as a healer want to buy 600 store pots and just mash buttons until your little heart is content I won't stop you. It only becomes a problem when you ask me to pay for you not knowing how to play a divine.

[PNellesen]

I had a few such occurances on Keeper before. Told them i'd let them die, 1 or 2 died in the cleaving area, suddenly melee became very disciplined. You step your foot down as the healer or half the group will fight in the cleaving area and hope to enjoy their bouncing HP bars. Once a few guys have died, the rest will get in line.
You just have to have the foot firmly on the break, and nothing will go wrong.

VoD is the proving ground for a healer. Let those die, who step out of line.
Let. Them. Die. Healer's 1st lesson.

Solo-healed my first VoD last night (normal) on my 18C/1F Battle Cleric (28pt, Max STR, no bauble, no torc, no conc. opp, but 100 heal scrolls ). Was very explicit before we went in: If you don't remove your own curses, you will die. If you draw Suulo aggro from the tank, turtle up. If you kite him, you will die. If you get out of the range of my aura (and hence likely out of range of any mass heals I centered on myself) you will die. Amazingly, everyone seemed to have listened. Everyone got their own curses, nobody pulled aggro, no deaths, and no pots needed. Wish they all went that smoothly

[biggin]

Solo-healed my first VoD last night (normal) on my 18C/1F Battle Cleric (28pt, Max STR, no bauble, no torc, no conc. opp, but 100 heal scrolls ). Was very explicit before we went in: If you don't remove your own curses, you will die. If you draw Suulo aggro from the tank, turtle up. If you kite him, you will die. If you get out of the range of my aura (and hence likely out of range of any mass heals I centered on myself) you will die. Amazingly, everyone seemed to have listened. Everyone got their own curses, nobody pulled aggro, no deaths, and no pots needed. Wish they all went that smoothly

And that's awesome (no sarcasm intended). It's great when you finally take the training wheels off and start to solo heal raids, even with the large pucker factor involved. I had someone solo heal a ToD the other day and you could definitely tell he had no intentions of doing it when he joined . But the party could handle it. You solo healed a VoD not because of how good you were as a divine but because you were good as a party.

[Memek]

And here is where we disagree: it's the PL who selects the divines. The divines may 'set down the law', but it's the PL's responsibility to get divines who do that.

Is it? I dont think it's the PL's responsibility to make sure he isnt bringing Divines who go into a dirnking frenzy. That's each healer's responsibility.

Again, I don't want it to seem as if I'm knocking new players or that if you die on the way to VoD you aren't worthy to run the raid. PL's need to just be more realistic about the skill sets of the party as a whole or instead of 'selective' LFM's go back to '5 pot buy in' LFM's.

Yes, that is good a good point but if a healer will drown 15 majors, that's ultimatively his own decision. Sure if you smell that as the PL you might want to invervene but you cant read minds. And if you want to be selective about running harder difficulties, be my guest. I never understood why on this server requesting beaters for Hard and up (or better weapons) was considered noobish - there is little reason to carry a character with his favorite +2 Flaming Burst Bastard Sword of Suck through the raid. He should get something better on the AH for a few thousand Gold and actually contribute rather than whine for heals while he is hitting for a bunch of 0s.

Solo-healed my first VoD last night (normal) on my 18C/1F Battle Cleric (28pt, Max STR, no bauble, no torc, no conc. opp, but 100 heal scrolls ). Was very explicit before we went in: If you don't remove your own curses, you will die. If you draw Suulo aggro from the tank, turtle up. If you kite him, you will die. If you get out of the range of my aura (and hence likely out of range of any mass heals I centered on myself) you will die. Amazingly, everyone seemed to have listened. Everyone got their own curses, nobody pulled aggro, no deaths, and no pots needed. Wish they all went that smoothly

Sometimes you have to have a few guys die, fighting in the cleaving area. After those have died, people tend to get much more disciplined and everything will be fine.

[maha0201]

Joined pug for VoD yesterday evening.
Group looked promising 1 arty 1 clrc 1 bard, leader was wf pally. Took us some time to fill since they had hold some spots and leader miscalculated on spot, and one ftr/monk from monties said its ok if he drop, he need to do dinner anyway. When he dropped we got filled.

We had 1bard 1arty 3clrc 1sorc 3rgrs 1pally 1ftr 1bbn (me). And we had few ppl lost on way then leader decides that we go on hard since we have healers ( 3 of them ), mine reaction was since we had one in group with 2 as 1st # of HP and 3-4 more with 3 as # of HP . And we started on hard and we finished it, yeah leader was tanking and i had mine sos in bank ( luckly ) since i stole aggro with claw and min2 so half of the run i was chasing devils

It was nice surprise for me that we finished that vod on hard, and no tome dropped but we got 1 robe 1 bracers 1 goggles

OT: Doesnt VoD normal drop tomes?

No you slacker, well if you count chance on 20th then maybe :P.

[Denegrator]

Ok bigg, so you died 3 times running to Hound instead, then 5 times running to VoD - the only question I want answered is: what did the experienced members of the party say to the guy?????

You died a total of 8 times en route to the raid Biggin??? For shame sir. You are indeed a noob. (j/k)

I know you advertised Hard in the LFM. But you may want to reconsider when:

-3 out of 12 go to Hound and get killed by the beholder on the other side of the portal
-5 out of 12 die on the way to the quest........ after it's been cleared

We will not hold it against you if you realize that the group you put together might not make it through Tempest Spine much less VOD. It happens. But also don't hold it against me when the conversation goes like this:

Me:you may want to reconsider running this on hard
PL: but i want +3 tomes, you can't get those on normal
Me: you get even less +3 tomes when you fail. just think about the trouble people had getting here (myself and a friend watched 30 minutes tick off our ship buffs waiting for everyone)
PL: in on hard

I won't even get into specifics, but I can tell you this. When the experienced members of your party tell you to run it at a lower difficulty, don't get bent out of shape when they won't help cover the 30+ pot count at the end. VOD is easily completeable by a handful of decent players barely paying attention. If you don't even have a handful of decent players in your group than swallow the pride and just get it done.

Well if a group can't make it to the raid, almost wiping on the way, it's a fair indication that they may be in over their heads.

[Llewndyn]

I know you advertised Hard in the LFM. But you may want to reconsider when:

-3 out of 12 go to Hound and get killed by the beholder on the other side of the portal
-5 out of 12 die on the way to the quest........ after it's been cleared

We will not hold it against you if you realize that the group you put together might not make it through Tempest Spine much less VOD. It happens. But also don't hold it against me when the conversation goes like this:

Me:you may want to reconsider running this on hard
PL: but i want +3 tomes, you can't get those on normal
Me: you get even less +3 tomes when you fail. just think about the trouble people had getting here (myself and a friend watched 30 minutes tick off our ship buffs waiting for everyone)
PL: in on hard

I won't even get into specifics, but I can tell you this. When the experienced members of your party tell you to run it at a lower difficulty, don't get bent out of shape when they won't help cover the 30+ pot count at the end. VOD is easily completeable by a handful of decent players barely paying attention. If you don't even have a handful of decent players in your group than swallow the pride and just get it done.

Last night, I get a tell from someone asking if I wanna run enter the Kobold on elite. Sure, whatevs, I go ahead and join. Everything goes pretty smoothly, thanks to some crack healing by a certain FVS and general competence by the other party members... until the end.

The wizard, who didn't have resist energy, which I found odd, also didn't have ooze puppet. This is saddening, but like I said most of the rest of the mission had gone pretty well, so although it would be tough I thought it would still be doable... 1 hour 20 minutes later, when I finally got too close and 3 DBF living spells hit me at the same time, killing me instantly, the monk says he is going to go get his capped wizard. The wizard starts in saying it will ruin his bravery bonus, to which I retort "Well here's the deal: if he doesn't get his wizard and try, we won't FINISH the quest, much less get bravery bonus. Getting SOME XP for 2 hours worth of work is better than trying what obviously isn't working over and over", never mind the fact that as a first lifer I had no money, and had used up my stack of heal scrolls, my last potion, and all 18 raise dead scrolls I had splurged on before entering said quest. I got 8 assorted pots from a couple party members, and had burned through 6 of THEM too... the wizard and a barb who wanted BB quit, the monk got his wizard and we finished. Everyone's urge to get the bravery bonus is good, means tougher groups, but sometimes you need to realize it's just not gonna happen. When you are also the leader of a group and 4 out of 6 are fine with getting the quest over with, salvaging what they can, it might pay to listen, even if you end up leaving.

Also if Turbine could add a tip saying "Once you do a quest on Elite, doing it again on normal will NOT break your bravery bonus" would help too. So many times we finish on elite, decide to farm on Hard or normal and someone whines because their streak will be broken, and no amount of explanation deters them from this flawed thinking...