Brand new 28pt cleric questions

[Doskko]

I'm looking at creating a casting focused cleric. I'm limited to 28 pt builds for now but I have all the races. No tomes as of yet, so I'm trying to plan something that won't absolutely need one. I have an Arti with crafting so I can put together some decent low-mid lvl gear. So far I have come up with this Human cleric:
10/8/14/8/18/12
points into Concentration & Balance
1 Tough
H ??
3 Emp Heal
6 Max
9 SF: Evoc
12 Quick
15 Heighten
18 ??

Which feat should I take for my human bonus and which should I grab at lvl 18? I'm thinking of Empower, Shield Mastery, Tower Shield, Extra Turn, Imp Turn, Spell Pen or SF: Necro.
Is Human my best choice or is Elf with its racial wpns better?
As a low lvl (I have vet so I'll start at lvl 4), should I focus on melee and self heal or will my offensive spells be able to actually get me through a quest? If melee, I'm assuming THF and not S&B.
As for alignment should I go True Neutral or some flavour of Good? I'm leaning towards TN for stability items rather then Good wpns.

[Mubjon]

Human is a good choice for your first cleric, especially if you want to be caster focus the extra feat can come in handy to getting the feats you need to pull of a 28 pt build.

From what I can see and what I would do differently on the stats and this is going from the fact that my first character was a 28 pt build that I used to get most of my favor with. It is easy to get into parties with a cleric so you can get and keep an elite streak going pretty well into the Vale.

I would do my stats like the following

Str 12
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 16
Chr 10

The reason I would do that on a 28 pt build and human is because the difference between this and an 18 starting wisdom is +1 to DC and about 29 sp. But, this character will be able to melee a bit in the low levels, as clerics get a ton of melee buffs, and you need the Con for hp, 16 is the minimum i start all my characters at. Then Charisma at 10, with enhancements and equipment you can have 12 turns which is more than enough. That is about 18 minutes at cap of healing Aura. That should be enough to get you to the next shrine as they regenerate back 1 every 2 minutes and they last 1 min 30 seconds.

For Feats what you have listed are quite nice and all you need.

1) Toughness
Human) empower healing
3) Kopesh/Empower/Maximise
6) Maximize/Empower/Kopesh
9) Quicken
12) SF Necro
15) SF evo/GSF Necro
18) Heighten

At 3 and 6 it would depend on what you wish to do as a cleric. More melee damage without a lot of the feats Kopesh is nice for a human, and then Maximize at 6. If you want to do mostly casting and use longswords and maces with a shield then taking empower and maximize is best.

SF NEcro is to help with instant kill spells, you can either take SF Evocation to help with blade barrier and implosion or greater spell focus necro to give a bigger boost to destruction and slay living.

Heighten is needed and should be used even on sound burst as it is still a nice stunning spell.

As far as low levels you will not have the sp to heal and cast, especially in a party. If you take a hire and go "solo" then you can and have the hire heal you. If you make some vicious of lesser bane weapons you can get by with one handed weapons and shield for the extra AC. Vicious is 2 to 12 untyped and the lesser bane is 1 to 6. That is some nice damage at level 5 (I think it the earliest you can get vicious). It will not out do the ******** DPS melee builds or sorcs. But, it will make short work of most that do close with you. Cast sound burst, then go in with the weapon.

The other feats that you mentioned are great and if I had a chose between those and what I selected I would go with shield mastery. Likewise you could plan on a 2 fighter splash and get kopesh/shield mastery both and still get 8 feats from human bonus and 7 normal.. Fighter would also get you tower shield prof for free and all melee weapons so that you could wield two handed weapons if you wanted.

[Firesmall_at]

To the OP,
When u say casting cleric what do you mean?

That is way too generalized for a Cleric. Without any pass lives and 28pt build insta kill will nerf too many other things on a Cleric that you need. If u want to insta kill u need pass lives for spell resistance. If u want to be good at blade barrier and divine punishment then that is viable for 28pt first life.

For blade barriers there is a saving throw, so DC (heighten) and SF GSF helps, but WIS16 is still ok. For Divine punishment there is no save and no spell resistance, but you should take Cleric Smiting 1-4 for it, and Critical Smiting lines 1-3 for 9% and x2.25.



I like the stats except for CON16. If you want to melee some get the STR up to 16 or 14. CHR8 is still enough turns with extra turning 2. You will level much easier with more STR at lvls 1-15 with better melee. Clerics are really good melee with buffs and gear if u don't dump STR.

There is so much gear out there for HP I would not spend the 2 ability pts for 1 pt of CON especially on a 28pt build. Also insta kill has spell resistance against it. Blade barrier and Divine Punishment does not. Unless u have pass lives to raise SR in addition to feats and enhancements it will not be high enough. SF evocation and GSF evocation might be better as a set than split between necro. If u are into insta kill then u prob need to TR first. Eh, I let that be the wiz/soc area of expertise.

Now that vopal is nerfed Kopesh is less popular.

Mubjon is a big fan of CON16 even on Elves. We go back and forth on here about it


Stats:

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Chr 10


For Feats:

1) Toughness
Human) empower healing (power attack)
3) Maximise
6) Empower
9) Quicken
12) SF evo (for casting) (improved critical slash) (sos baby)
15) Heighten
18) GSF evo (casting)

You can swap into the SF feats at higher lvl. You dont get many insta kill spells till higher lvl. Heighten and quicken are great for blade barriers when getting hit. Power attack is not instead of, so if u take power attack then take empower healing right after it. Taking the melee feats is viable instead of SF and GSF, but u might want to trade these out for SF at lvl20 epic. Improved critical is better than power attack and hard to give up for GSF, but u can substitute keen on weapons for it especially till lvl 12 u don't have it.

Low lvl melee 28pt build is 2HF like u said with keen weapons and power attack using divine favor, divine power (items or spell), haste item and rage items on your hot keys. With this knowledge u will out melee most melee pugs that don't know this. Get a seeker hat or non weapon if u can manage it. 2 fighter splash means u get 2 extra feats for improved critical and power attack in addtion to SF and GSF. U lose some spell damage mostly in the trade and melee damage gains are 4 times that loss, but don't nerf your DC against saving throws for melee feats.

[ArgentMage]

Since you mention you have all the races, here's another option:
Half-Elf with Fighter Dilettante, which gives you proficiency with all the martial weapons.

I have several of these running around, and it's great to be able to use whatever
really nice weapons come to hand (Carnifex, Xuum, Giant-stalker's knife, Nicked
Scimitar, plus whatever you'd care to craft).

In this scenario, I'd go:

Str 15
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Chr 10

While making up for the odd STR by using the less desirable so more commonly
available +1/+3/+5 STR items (starting with the Anger set from Korthos). Then
even out STR at level 13 with Human Greater Adaptability: STR.

[Firesmall_at]

Odds are you will want the exception wisdom +1 and exception constitution +1 rings from TOD upgraded to +3 later, if u lvl up wisdom along the way. Better to have human adaptability in Con for CON15 instead, and it qualifies for racial toughness3 along the way off and on, with +1/+3 exceptional ring later to even it out. So keep the STR an even number if u level up wisdom. Now if u take 2 fighter lvls u get FTR STR1, so then STR should be odd. U can lvl up STR too, but you want to be caster focused whatever that means for a 28pt build first life that u have to figure out.

Greater human adapt wisdom and wisdom 3 enhancements are expensive for 10 pts, but worth it.

Also better to up charisma to 12 for more turns rather than intel 10. And if a CHR +2 tome happens to drop later for free in a quest (which they do often enough) u can take Divine might 1 with base CHR14 to buff melee instead of those other useless enhancements required for radiant servant 1. I have pulled 3 tomes grinding TOD in 10 runs. Charisma +2 and wisdom+2 and wisdom +4.

[PNellesen]

Having played a Helf w/ Fighter Dilly to cap, I have to say I really like that for a pure cleric who can at least contribute a little to melee. Find or craft a keen Falchion and you're golden

If I were going Human, I would probably take Extend for either my bonus feat, or at level 3, then swap it out using my free feat swap at maybe level 18ish for a spell focus feat or maybe Heighten. Extend is nice to have at mid-levels, but becomes less useful after that (though on a melee cleric it's good for Divine Power)

[Wipey]

Get 18 wisdom,level ups in wisdom, human and cleric wisdom enhancements, level appropriate +wisdom gear and tomes, exceptional wis items, wisdom kitchen sink, anything.You can't just spam spells, you want it to land where
and when it matters.

I would get extend at level 1 or 3 and swap it later for spell focus necro or evocation.

And yes lowbie levels are terrible, you are kinda forced to melee, you don' t really have any offensive or rather damaging spells until lvl 7. Get cookies, hirelings, party members.

[ArgentMage]

Odds are you will want the exception wisdom +1 and exception constitution +1 rings from TOD upgraded to +3 later, if u lvl up wisdom along the way. Better to have human adaptability in Con for CON15 instead, and it qualifies for racial toughness3 along the way off and on, with +1/+3 exceptional ring later to even it out.

I know a lot of folks build for cap, but I prefer to build for leveling, and then
re-spec enhancements if raid gear drops. Since the build self-heals, the extra
10 points from racial toughness III aren't always worth 3 AP, and you could
get 2 extra turns for that same 3 AP.

Also better to up charisma to 12 for more turns rather than intel 10.

This is probably another play-style thing, but I like to have 10 skill points in
balance if I'm going to be in melee, since with relatively low strength, you will
get knocked down a lot, and I like to be able to get up on the first check pretty
much every time. INT for skill points is the hardest thing to change on the
cheap. So I shoot to max Concentration and 10 points (net) in Balance.

[Habreno]

As Human you'll have 2 skill points/level. If you want, go with an 8 INT. You'll still do fine for skills. Concentration and Balance.

[Firesmall_at]

I know a lot of folks build for cap, but I prefer to build for leveling, and then
re-spec enhancements if raid gear drops. Since the build self-heals, the extra
10 points from racial toughness III aren't always worth 3 AP, and you could
get 2 extra turns for that same 3 AP.



This is probably another play-style thing, but I like to have 10 skill points in
balance if I'm going to be in melee, since with relatively low strength, you will
get knocked down a lot, and I like to be able to get up on the first check pretty
much every time. INT for skill points is the hardest thing to change on the
cheap. So I shoot to max Concentration and 10 points (net) in Balance.

Yeah racial toughness 3 is off and on depending like I said. Those points r better spent on smiting and extra turns.

Now if you plan to lesser reincarn or greater reincarn later then a splash 1 lvl or 2 of ftr is nice for leveling with pugs quickly and easily. But if it is just enhancements with lvl ups in wisdom I would keep str even. U can even up wisdom and con easy enough and worry about what gear drops later.

As for skill pts more power to u. No biggy CHR verse INT.

[SirValentine]

Without any pass lives and 28pt build insta kill will nerf too many other things on a Cleric that you need. If u want to insta kill u need pass lives for spell resistance.

Simply not true.

A first-life Cleric can get usable insta-kill DCs, and enough spell pen for most mobs. Then you just don't try to insta-kill the few mobs with very high SR; you CC them instead.

A 28-point build can still max out their Wis for max DCs. They just have to sacrifice some Str and/or Cha to do it.

[Firesmall_at]

Kopesh,falchions,scimitars,rapiers have good criticals. Maybe not worth a feat as pure and take -4 to hit. Ur low lvl to midlvl melee is ok if, but u have to toggle power attack off if u miss. Human verse helps with tohit or dmg.


Again... what kinda casting do u want to do cause there r trade offs depending on that?


Balance skill is fine with INT8 with max concentration. You can get a balance item +7-10 at auction reasonably priced if u have fallen and cant get up. Now UMD is what u might take INT10 for.

[Firesmall_at]

Simply not true.

just don't try to insta-kill the **FEW** mobs with very high SR; you CC them instead.

They just have to sacrifice some Str and/or Cha to do it.

SirValentine and me go back and forth on this SR stuff, but he has more exp in the game than me with epic and clerics. But I can't resist because he said it himself. Others besides me think SR is a huge investment for a first life Cleric for the "few" times it is needed. Not worth the sacrifice IMHO. He has TR'd so much he forgets the plight of a first life Cleric. Gotcha dude

I implode just fine on lvl 20 (elite 22) with my CLR18/FTR2. If they save against it, I cometfall and hack at them while they lay on the ground with my awesome melee...... for a Cleric.

Implosion has a timer but no SR in description. That is wrong though unless they changed it again?
It is evocation like BB and DP too.



For melee this is the +1 if u stay pure:

Also, I carry a stack of Master's Touch scrolls. I could UMD them on myself for 1-handed weapons if needed, but mainly it's to pass them to any friendly arcane (or UMD toon) to cast one me and give me proficiency in a 2-hander.

[SirValentine]

SirValentine and me go back and forth on this SR stuff, but he has more exp in the game than me with epic and clerics. But I can't resist because he said it himself. Others besides me think SR is a huge investment for a first life Cleric for the "few" times it is needed. Not worth the sacrifice IMHO. He has TR'd so much he forgets the plight of a first life Cleric. Gotcha dude

I implode just fine on lvl 20 (elite 22) with my CLR18/FTR2. If they save against it, I cometfall and hack at them while they lay on the ground with my awesome melee...... for a Cleric.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying a first-life caster SHOULD or SHOULD NOT invest heavily in spell penetration? And do you think I'm saying they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT?

Also, folks need to be clear on the difference between save DC and your Spell Pen. Two completely different game mechanics, with very different implications for your build. There are plenty of people who don't understand how it works, and so end up messing themselves up.

For a first-life divine caster I suggest:
- Max out DCs (max Wisdom, get +DC items)
- For Spell Pen, fit what you can via gear & enhancements, but don't freak out over it or worry if you can't fit Spell Pen feats. No first-life build is going to reliably beat top-end SR.

Result: Implode/Destruct almost everything. Cometfall Epic Drow or other high-SR mobs. Most mobs don't have any SR at all, and plenty that have some SR only have reasonable amounts.

My very first Cleric life build sucked, but that was due to lack of knowledge & experience, not lack of past life feats or build points. My 2nd life caster Cleric build was very effective, due to building right and accumulating gear, not the extra build points or the single Cleric Past Life.

Implosion has a timer but no SR in description. That is wrong though unless they changed it again?

There is no SR or save to cast Implosion on yourself, which gives you an Implosion Aura, 100% of the time. The description is accurate.

The aura then tries to implode mobs, with a spell pen check only if they have SR, and a save for them to avoid dying no matter what. So the description, though accurate, is misleading, because a save and SR do apply to the end effect.

[Doskko]

Thanks for all the replys.
I think I'm going to try to max out my Wis and get solid DCs. I figure I'll be healing 75% of the time and casting offensively or CC'ing the rest in the mid to late lvls. I'll try to slog through the low levels and hopefully get in a lot of groups.

One more question: a wand of Web... thats just a straight Reflex save right? I use Web on my Sorc a lot but I'm not sure how to swing it on my Cleric. Is Command better?

[Mubjon]

Thanks for all the replys.
I think I'm going to try to max out my Wis and get solid DCs. I figure I'll be healing 75% of the time and casting offensively or CC'ing the rest in the mid to late lvls. I'll try to slog through the low levels and hopefully get in a lot of groups.

One more question: a wand of Web... thats just a straight Reflex save right? I use Web on my Sorc a lot but I'm not sure how to swing it on my Cleric. Is Command better?

I might be mistaken, but I think the DC would be based on the caster level of the wand. So a level 3 wand would be the same as if it was cast from a level 3 Wizard or Sorc.

[Habreno]

There is no SR or save to cast Implosion on yourself, which gives you an Implosion Aura, 100% of the time. The description is accurate.

The aura then tries to implode mobs, with a spell pen check only if they have SR, and a save for them to avoid dying no matter what. So the description, though accurate, is misleading, because a save and SR do apply to the end effect.

Indeed. The DC is 10 + 9 (spell level) + WIS modifier + Evocation Bonuses. The SR check is as for a level 9 spell, so CL + Lesser/-/Greater Spell Pen IX effects + Spell Pen Feats + Spell Pen Enhancements.


Good luck.

[Firesmall_at]

Thanks for all the replys.
I think I'm going to try to max out my Wis and get solid DCs. I figure I'll be healing 75% of the time and casting offensively or CC'ing the rest in the mid to late lvls. I'll try to slog through the low levels and hopefully get in a lot of groups.

One more question: a wand of Web... thats just a straight Reflex save right? I use Web on my Sorc a lot but I'm not sure how to swing it on my Cleric. Is Command better?

Slogging on a 28 pt build with WIS18 and STR10? Ok maybe, but with the right gear u will still beat a melee pug build with max str and the wrong gear. Tons of info on here how to do it with gear and items and spells, so it may not be as bad as u think if u do the research. Just check out the previous threads from most of us that have posted here for builds and gear. Some master's touch spells/scrolls from your friendly mage, human versatility, and power attack feat that can be swapped out and u r good to go. All it takes is a couple of visits to Fred the mindflayer feat swapper to spec more for offensive casting at higher lvls.

Clerics are lots of fun even at low lvl, so have fun.

[Paleus]

Your bread and butter cleric spells are going to be blade barrier and implosion, both of which are evocation spells so I would suggest getting those feats instead of other tempting choices like necromancy. Necromancy will affect your destruction DCs which on the face of things is good, but pumping two feats into one spell is probably less useful (especially since you could implode or BB-kite the mobs instead). Evocation also works with good leveling spells like Holy Smite (cannot oversell enough how good being able to blind a group of mobs is while levelilng). Other good leveling spells are soundburst (also evocation) and greater command (when you're using it you can get by without feats to support it). Cometfall and banishment are also non-feat supported spells you'll probably use only during certain periods of leveling (like vale) that will probably be good enough with items and wis score support.

The basic feats in any build you have are going to be maximize, quicken, and empower healing. I would also pop in empower for the added umph on BBs since you are aiming for an evoker. You will want extend in your final build if it still works on aura (I cant remember now if it does I remember they changed things a while back when I still played a cleric). If it doesnt still affect the aura, then while you may use it leveling unless you are using divine power and favor at end game its not really used for much else that isnt already 20 minutes long buff and thus you could probably forgo it.

I would then suggest you consider Half-elf for the dilettante. At lower levels when you still would melee having the free martial proficieny from fighter is nice, but I would really consider it for the monk heal amp you can get. Stacked with human heal amp and your healing aura you'd have a pretty sturdy build.

Pump your wisdom above all else, give yourself a healthy con score and then figure if you want to put the remainder in strength or charisma based upon your goals.

[GlorifyQuC]

1 Tough
H Mental Toughness
3 Empower healing
6 Maximize
9 Empower
12 Quicken
15 Improved Mental Toughness
18 Heighten

You want max/empower for BB at 11, don't bother with actual melee damage on a 28 point build.

Mental Toughness will help you get a decent mana pool for actual healing, which is what you should focus on.

Cap wisdom
Dump Dex and Cha
Con to 14
Int for whatever skills you want
Rest into str to keep from helpless or dump it