You've Got Your Mario in My DDO!

[joaofalcao]

See, D&D can be anything.....

This is exactly why D&D is dying.

You cant please everyone. You just cant. May be sad but it is true.

I ve read an article of no one else than Monte Cook. Dont have time to link it and doesnt remember the name of the article. Was very well written (its an icon of D&D after all) and very diplomatic and was all about this. You can make your own D&D and decide what do you wanna play, wether its horror or fast paced or wargame-boardlike or whatever.

So, whats going to be the face of D&D? all faces? Wrong, no face.

D&D always been a very special experience. It was all about simulation and forgetting our mundane and troublesome lives. The game was level based, but there was a deep feeling of imersion as the system reflected what actions could been taken on a given reality. It was a deep, epic medieval experience of killing dragons and saving the world.

On the days me and the friends were sad or the like, we played VtM. Theres no comparison between those too: D&D and VtM.

The 3rd and 3.5rd edition audience was a very special one with a given RPG mindset. When the oversimplified and wargamish 4th edition came out, this generation was mostly displeased.

See, I even bought the 4th edition basic books. D&D had a sacred feel for us, was very cult-like. I wasnt gonna let a change destroy the game for me. I tryed hard to play 4th edition.

I couldnt see it as an RPG System. Its a very close tied board game with resemblances to an RPG.

It wasnt an imersion experience, complex stories, details and worlds, it was a game like any other, a simple passtime a group of hipsters could enjoy.

It wasnt a D&D experience. Wasnt a special game. Was a game like any other.

D&D needs a face. It needs personality. Seriously, there are plenty of uncompromised games I can play to spend my time. I could play Gurps or turn on my my PS2, but when I wanted to do something special, I set up an D&D campaign.

And thats why players stopped playing 4th edition. Its so easy to replace it for other past time.

So, I have a huge respect for a guy like Monte Cook. I will cross my fingers for the guy and hope for a special 5th edition. But if he wants to please every crowd, hes most likely going to fail.

Now, DDO team, play a very close attention to its matter and game identity.

Give you an example, the new pet system. Theres a thread on lamma forums showing a baby wolf and a baby panter. Now close your ears because I am going to scream it loud.

THATS NOT D&D. THATS GENERIC ORIENTAL MANGA STYLE MMOS.

That totally kills my buzz.

There are plenty of MMOs of that style avaiable, and if your QA doesnt improve (sorry, its preetty bad of late not to mention the recycles) the hipster crowd is going to play another one of those games.

This game needs to be special. It must differs itself. It cannot be just another online game.

You can play Monte Cook here and put a UI /pets off option if you like. Will work for a guy like me. But every Xoriat Comedy Quest you put kill this game for me a bit more. Its like playing VtM and every malkavian is silly and dorky instead of mad and disturbing. One round drinking with beholders is fine. 2 Loses all fun about it.

Well, enough writting. Theres enough material here for pages and pages of drama.

I just hope my insights and opinions can shed some light unto this matter and perhaps something good comes out of it.

Peace.

[Nysrock]

I think it all boils down to the fact that DDO (And D&D) means different things to different people. Everyone has a very specific way they play the game so that it is enjoyable for them. Now, one of the oldest adages of all time still holds true: "You can't please all of the people all of the time."

That being said, I think the developers have done an amazing job trying to incorporate as many different aspects of D&D into DDO as they can. They make it so the power gamers can play their way, the casual players can play how they want to and everyone else can decide which extreme or middle ground suits them.

Growing up playing PnP D&D I don't think our group ever got beyond level 7 or 8 but we always had fun. We never followed encumbrance rules and our DM had fun bending and just plain breaking the rules as he saw fit so we could maximize our fun. Another friend of mine would play following EVERY rule down to characters having to write down what order any items were placed into their packs. That way was not fun for me and so I could never sit down to a gaming session with him.

But DDO is a melting pot where he and I and many others can meet up and quest together. I still find people that I can't group with because of playstyle differences but then there are still people IRL that I can't group with either.

So long rambling post aside, I think there is a little bit of everyone here in DDO. And for myself I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Callavan]

This is exactly why D&D is dying.
<snip>
THATS NOT D&D. THATS GENERIC ORIENTAL MANGA STYLE MMOS.

That totally kills my buzz.

There is much truth in what you say, but I'ma especially second the part about the buzzkill. Leave the japanamanga and other bizarre gaming elements that have nothing to do with D&D out of My D&D experience, please. Otherwise you might as well just go ahead and drop D&D out of the concept altogether.

Tyvm

[Saravis]

To comment on story in DDO, the issue isn't with the stories themselves or lack thereof, but rather the method of delivery. In the majority of quests the story is delivered via talking to an NPC. The problem with that is only the person who talks to the NPC gets the story and to everyone else it just becomes a directional pointer rather than a meaningful journey. This problem gets worse when you realize that the majority of players that will do the talking are the ones that are already familiar with the quest and just want to whip through it, leaving the newbies and such in the dark about what's going on.

This issue isn't everywhere in DDO, as there are places, such as ToD, where the story is performed for everyone. Its just, regretfully, in the majority of the content. Perhaps we can get more presentable stories.

[MartinusWyllt]

Having come from AD&D 2nd. edition I found Eberron quite the culture shock. Between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms the idea you could walk up to someone in a marketplace and buy magical potions, scrolls and wands was astounding. I've adjusted, though, obviously, and like the airship and Robert Aspirin-esque magical trinket explosion.

As for the mario aspects specifically I'm mostly fine with those bits, but would be better satisfied if lag moments, perspective-shifting problems and invisible walls weren't problematic. Coal chamber is my favorite for having mysterious invisible walls see me sliding off the ledge and back down to the bottom. This doesn't happen often now, but, gosh, it is still certainly annoying. Falling in mysterious directions in other quests also presents challenges to my personal enjoyment.

As for storylines what I would like to see and what it looks like is coming is more customization of quest dialog based on who your character is. U13 appears to be introducing this with automatic knowledge feats. Alignment mattering would be nice, too. As a player, though, I could actually read dialogue boxes more than I do. Heck, even having the ghouls in Misery's Peak say something other than "fresh meat" when your warforged rolls into the scene would be a nice touch.

PvP, though, well, I don't think D&D is well-suited for that and other games designed around PvP will always satisfy that desire much better. One idea I saw that I did like would be introducing competitive PvE.

Anyway, TL/DR: Some jumping/twich requirements would be better with a better interface, but overall there's no DOOOoooOOOMm!!

[Vormaerin]

THATS NOT D&D. THATS GENERIC ORIENTAL MANGA STYLE MMOS.

That totally kills my buzz.

Yeah, because the only way to use familiars and animal companions is as killer beasts eager to rip out monster throats....

Sorry, you are totally missing Monte Cook's point. He's arguing the D20 system as a competitor for GURPS was a bad idea, not that there is "one true way" to play fantasy.

There wasn't "one true way" to play D&D even in the halcyon days of 1e. The **** that Gygax let go on at his table would never show up in mine. :P You can play D&D anywhere from a tactical skirmish game to a pure story game and be within the rules.

You can babble about johnny come lately's like Monte Cook. I prefer to go with the views of the likes of Gygax, Arneson, and Kuntz. Guys who thought the DM was the arbiter of what was good for his game, not the game company.

[Vormaerin]

In the majority of quests the story is delivered via talking to an NPC.

You do realize the text shows up in the chat window, right?

[Saravis]

You do realize the text shows up in the chat window, right?

No I didn't, I must have that option disabled, unless you're talking about overhead text, which isn't what I'm talking about.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

It IS D&D-ish and you are playing at our table.

See, D&D can be anything. It can have a side game of cards, or dice. It can go to weird places, it can break it's own rules. D&D 'by the book' has gone to horror, post apocalyptic places, released a dice game for inside taverns(challenges), had cowboys and space aliens, and even Alice in Wonderland(Xorat I guess would be our version). There are rules for skill challenges (jump puzzles, trap rooms exc) and combat.

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

That said, not everything is for everyone. There are full systems I don't use, but it is nice that they exist, someday I may use them. Just like tabletop there are different types of gamers, and as designers we attempt to give each arch type something interesting at least once a year.

Well said, and while I don't like some of the things you've recently added, I agree that expanding into those areas helps create a wider playerbase. Although I would focus a bit more on quests and stories which is the true base of any experience in D&D.

[Vormaerin]

The actual dialogue from the NPCs appears in the chat window. So you can read it there if you wish. If its not showing up for you, look at your text display options. There's a bazillion options for what appears where.

[Saravis]

The actual dialogue from the NPCs appears in the chat window. So you can read it there if you wish. If its not showing up for you, look at your text display options. There's a bazillion options for what appears where.

Weird I've never had that happen for any of my characters. I'll goof around, but if you can find/figure out the option, please let me know.

[Maelwyn]

I think I get what the OP was trying to say, and if I am wrong about this I apologize. But, what I think he is worried about is that DDO will become more WoWish, and more arcade-ish, rather than being an immersive story-based game, where dialogue and NPCs matter and connect a greater story arc. In a nutshell, I think the OP is looking for the campaign feel to the game. It is hard to replicate in DDO. In PnP, the campaign is designed by the DM, run by the DM, and the DM has the players' tastes in mind (most of the time, at least, if the DM is a good one). With DDO, this is hard to accomplish with thousands of players with thousands of unique tastes.

So, immersion seems to be the main issue here. It is hard to get that immersion feeling when you see artificers' dogs animate back into their boxes, or coins floating in the harbor during Risia, and so forth. But, some people don't see that as breaking immersion, while people like the OP, or myself, might roll our eyes instead. I do enjoy some of the festivities, but sometimes I wish they could be handled or presented in a way that kept me feeling like I was in that world, and not in a Mario world.

One thing someone else mentioned was how when grouping with others in a party, the more experienced players will often zerg through the quest and fast-forward the NPC's diaglogue(s), which spoils the quest for the newer players, as well as spoils the story. I can see how some people can play this game for years and not connect the dots when they come across the same NPC in a new quest that they had run into before in an old one. I really liked how in the Cannith Manufactury, when reading the explorer scrolls, you get both a text on the screen as well as audible dialogue of a voice actor reading that same text. Perhaps DDO could go through and do that with all of the quests and NPC dialogues in the game. To me, it helps with immersion, and similates the feel of a DM's narration. I do realize some DM narration exists in the quests, but to hear voices for the NPCs would be a good way to help players gain that immersion experience.

Some other things that could help players with immersion could be allowing players to purchase homes (to store their treasures and such). These could work similar to guild ships, as their own instances. Perhaps, higher level characters could gain enough xp or favor to unlock a castle, keep, temple or wizard's tower of their own; or gain a room or floor in one. Another idea would be to allow character created content into the game. Neverwinter and Pathfinder are upcoming MMOs that look to be going this route, and it will most likely be the trend in MMOs in the near future. Even Skyrim will have a Creation Kit being released next week. I think one other idea that could help in immersion is to create more starting points for new characters. Korthos is fine and dandy, but it gets old. Perhaps creating a Korthos type of starting zone for each race would be a good idea, to spice things up. Take for example a dwarven underground mining town with several adventures for a newly rolled dwarven character. Or, a forest full of quests for elves. Anyway, just some ideas to help with the immersion in the game.

[herzkos]

Weird I've never had that happen for any of my characters. I'll goof around, but if you can find/figure out the option, please let me know.

the option is listed as NPC text or some such.

right click on the chat tab (i.e. general) and then select incoming chat types.
then make sure that npc chat/text/whatever is selected.

[Saravis]

the option is listed as NPC text or some such.

right click on the chat tab (i.e. general) and then select incoming chat types.
then make sure that npc chat/text/whatever is selected.

I saw that and it was checked, but still nothing.

[CheeseMilk]

Heck, even having the ghouls in Misery's Peak say something other than "fresh meat" when your warforged rolls into the scene would be a nice touch.

Ever see a Mind Flayer eat a Warforged's brain? It's... not the same as a fleshy.

There are still devs who care about this kind of thing.

[k1ngp1n]

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

As long as it is part of a coherent story, I would agree with you.

Without the story, it is nothing. That is this game's weakest part - you guys don't tell a good story. *You have a good story, but are total **** at telling it.*

When you then give up on a story all together (*cough* Challenges *cough*) , well... why am I playing this game again? I thought it was to experience a world, but I seem to be missing the world part.

[herzkos]

I saw that and it was checked, but still nothing.

sorry about the delay, got busy. . .
not all NPC text shows up. I usually turn off my NPC text after joining a group for
WW when the whole party talks to Tember and everything he says to each person
is spammed into my general chat tab. I think it would be more useful if it were
just NPCs in quest. That way, everyone could read -for example- what the speaking
stones say to the guy with the voice in Von 5.

Back on topic: I don't mind the challenges or the Mario skills (except when lag hits grrrr!!!!).
Minigames are fun as well, if they have a story and/or a purpose other than just grinding gear.

[NecroKovy]

Don't take this the wrong way, but would you really prefer the game to be more 'chanced' based, more 'rolls' and less about reflex and skill?

Do we really want a game where we simply make each and every challenge a 'stand and beatdown, winner is last one standing / made the best/highest rolls' ?

I don't. I'm getting old and crappy with my reflexes, but games like this KEEP them reflexes somewhat normal. I don't want nothing more than a rolling fest. I enjoy the 'arcade' aspect of the game, and would VERY MUCH like them to continue that.

I think the root of my anger at the pace (sometimes) stems from not having access to this game as a teenager, when I could have really dug into it. Yes, the Physical Therapy Inducing +6 Thirty Minute Rainbow Kaleidoscope of Brain Hemorrhage is very fun to use. I would certainly die if I played as much as I'd like to. I used to be able to play classic grid style games like Might & Magic, Wizardry, etc.... for MONTHS!!! (The way Goodfella's dad says it)

How about scrapping all the dynamics of C/N/H/E, and just give then speed ratings instead? Casual for the withered elder who still has a mind for the game, and Elite/Epic for the young people whose spinal function can take on the additional burden of that sort of playing intensity for that long!

I love the game. Sometimes I feel like all I'm doing is clicking the mouse as fast as I can without even really enjoying the fight. THEN my fingers, elbows, shoulders, and neck all roll a natural 20 on a sunder attempt. It's a real bummer, but it could also speak to me not having a mack daddy play area. None of that matters, though. Ever see Pet Cemetery? Remember Zelda? Zelda is what happens to my body if I play too long. Think I've painted the picture enough and maybe oughta wanna shut up now? You bet.

What's this thread about again? Right, the challenges. Ya know I bought the pack on sale (not the Arti quests, just the challenges)...was hoping they would be something I could look into while I get my depends off the chesterfield.....

[Neouni]

I like the mario bits in DDO and I'm usually quite good at them.
The thing you need to be aware of is that jumping makes you extend your arms and collision detection will push you off the wall.

What I don't like is the latest fashion to release loads of ingredient items to 'fix' the developers lack of imagination lately:
U8; 4 ingredients (attack on stormreach marks)
U9; 33 of which 12 can be randomly found in treasure (cannith crafting)
U10; 7 (redesign of cannith crafting and reign of madness item upgrade ingredients)
U11; 19 (wilderness and raid drops)
U12; 21 (challenge materials)

And yet they find it strange we are having more carry weight troubles since a year back.
I'm a pack rat sometimes and tend to store stuff I don't come across a lot like marks, sigils (sentinels) and event stuff in a separate bag in the bank just to reduce clutter.

Cannith crafting and challenges seem to add the most weight with stacks getting to hunderds easily.

As to the store not being immersive for the whole party I agree.
Most people have no clue the ice dragon in 'prey on the hunter' is the same as the one you have saved in 'misery peak'
The cause as said before in this thread is that there is only 1 person getting to read all the story from the npc and no narration to help the rest.

The story is there, people just choose to ignore it.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Yeah, because the only way to use familiars and animal companions is as killer beasts eager to rip out monster throats....

bah .. cute image of puppy doesn't work anymore ..