You've Got Your Mario in My DDO!

[~lyonav]

Perhaps it had to happen. Perhaps the format makes it inevitable. It began with the festival events and has taken root and blossomed into the challenge system. DDO feels increasingly like an arcade game -- an advanced, graphically compelling arcade game, mind you, but an arcade game nonetheless.

Grinding quests for XP and loot, equipping new characters with hand-me-down power items and limitless bank accounts, bantering the numerical perfection of the "chosen builds", are fine and appealing for many. The challenge system, PVP, and the various events may attract these and others to gather further unique loot and unleash the undeniable power of their uberbuilds. I certainly won't begrudge anyone their preferences.

I would ask, however, that the game not continue to slide down the path toward just another elaborate arcade game with only the barest pretense of weaving interesting story lines together. As it is, this gaming format makes this perhaps the most significant challenge of all -- at least for the designers -- and I raise my sword in salute to those who would arise to see that the game re-examine its current trends and lead us through good stories as much as through mazes of cheeky kobolds.

[articwarrior]

That, sir, was a very well written post, and I do agree completely. DDO has become too much of an arcade game, perhaps of Warner Bros. influence on the developers? Whatever the case may be, I feel the same, they must take a step back and examine how they approach their plot within DDO and the steps they need to take to achieve that story line.

oh yea, +1

[AMDarkwolf]

Don't take this the wrong way, but would you really prefer the game to be more 'chanced' based, more 'rolls' and less about reflex and skill?

Do we really want a game where we simply make each and every challenge a 'stand and beatdown, winner is last one standing / made the best/highest rolls' ?

I don't. I'm getting old and crappy with my reflexes, but games like this KEEP them reflexes somewhat normal. I don't want nothing more than a rolling fest. I enjoy the 'arcade' aspect of the game, and would VERY MUCH like them to continue that.

More action, more of the 'twitch', and more of the fast moving combat please. (TBH its the ONE AND ONLY reason me, and MANY others keep at it in DDO, or keep returning. The combat/interface system and the 'arcade' feeling keeps many ppl here.)

[NecroKovy]

Don't take this the wrong way, but would you really prefer the game to be more 'chanced' based, more 'rolls' and less about reflex and skill?

Do we really want a game where we simply make each and every challenge a 'stand and beatdown, winner is last one standing / made the best/highest rolls' ?

I don't. I'm getting old and crappy with my reflexes, but games like this KEEP them reflexes somewhat normal. I don't want nothing more than a rolling fest. I enjoy the 'arcade' aspect of the game, and would VERY MUCH like them to continue that.

I think the root of my anger at the pace (sometimes) stems from not having access to this game as a teenager, when I could have really dug into it. Yes, the Physical Therapy Inducing +6 Thirty Minute Rainbow Kaleidoscope of Brain Hemorrhage is very fun to use. I would certainly die if I played as much as I'd like to. I used to be able to play classic grid style games like Might & Magic, Wizardry, etc.... for MONTHS!!! (The way Goodfella's dad says it)

How about scrapping all the dynamics of C/N/H/E, and just give then speed ratings instead? Casual for the withered elder who still has a mind for the game, and Elite/Epic for the young people whose spinal function can take on the additional burden of that sort of playing intensity for that long!

I love the game. Sometimes I feel like all I'm doing is clicking the mouse as fast as I can without even really enjoying the fight. THEN my fingers, elbows, shoulders, and neck all roll a natural 20 on a sunder attempt. It's a real bummer, but it could also speak to me not having a mack daddy play area. None of that matters, though. Ever see Pet Cemetery? Remember Zelda? Zelda is what happens to my body if I play too long. Think I've painted the picture enough and maybe oughta wanna shut up now? You bet.

What's this thread about again? Right, the challenges. Ya know I bought the pack on sale (not the Arti quests, just the challenges)...was hoping they would be something I could look into while I get my depends off the chesterfield.....

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Do we really want a game where we simply make each and every challenge a 'stand and beatdown, winner is last one standing / made the best/highest rolls' ?

This is what DDO is right now. Every challenge is a mind-numbing stand and beatdown. There's very little skill required. The Shroud part 4 pre-blade-nerf required a modicum of skill and twitch and about 1/2 of the population was up in pitchforks.

Every quest and raid in the game with the exception of LoB and MA (that do require some team cohesiveness), are straight up dumb hack-and-slash.

And D&D, and by extension DDO, is ultimately a game of chance. A game that regardless of skill and build, there is a chance to roll a 1 and die. If not, ask all the Horoth tanks with 50+ fort saves getting whacked by two punches and a fail disintegrate. That is good. That's the inherent nature of this game. And it's the reason many of us play this game.

[FengXian]

I think it was more about the storyline.

OP is not against min-maxing builds nor against "mario skills", he hates kobolds! I agree, while kobolds are fun and everything some challenges I've played remind me of Crash Bandicoot. Loved it but it doesn't really belong here :/

Keep it more D&D-ish please.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

It IS D&D-ish and you are playing at our table.

See, D&D can be anything. It can have a side game of cards, or dice. It can go to weird places, it can break it's own rules. D&D 'by the book' has gone to horror, post apocalyptic places, released a dice game for inside taverns(challenges), had cowboys and space aliens, and even Alice in Wonderland(Xorat I guess would be our version). There are rules for skill challenges (jump puzzles, trap rooms exc) and combat.

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

That said, not everything is for everyone. There are full systems I don't use, but it is nice that they exist, someday I may use them. Just like tabletop there are different types of gamers, and as designers we attempt to give each arch type something interesting at least once a year.

[herzkos]

It IS D&D-ish and you are playing at our table.

See, D&D can be anything. It can have a side game of cards, or dice. It can go to weird places, it can break it's own rules. D&D 'by the book' has gone to horror, post apocalyptic places, released a dice game for inside taverns(challenges), had cowboys and space aliens, and even Alice in Wonderland(Xorat I guess would be our version). There are rules for skill challenges (jump puzzles, trap rooms exc) and combat.

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

That said, not everything is for everyone. There are full systems I don't use, but it is nice that they exist, someday I may use them. Just like tabletop there are different types of gamers, and as designers we attempt to give each arch type something interesting at least once a year.

dear sir, think you missed the point of the OP and the guy you pulled the
d&dish from:
all the op is asking for is coherent story lines. a plot, an adventure if you will.

I would second his request, i like the story lines. it took me about 3 years to
realize that the Bergthrym spoken of in stk was the "chief" in threnal
south part 3. when i did, i was like . . . wow. coherent stories that tie stuff
together are what the op was looking for and I concur.

[GeneralDiomedes]

dear sir, think you missed the point of the OP and the guy you pulled the
d&dish from:
all the op is asking for is coherent story lines. a plot, an adventure if you will.

I detected a definite bah humbug in the general direction of what he doesn't particularly care for .. with nary a mention about the vast majority of content which has storylines, of which I'm sure he has studied diligently.

One release doesn't a trend make. Long live variety!

[Narmolanya]

dear sir, think you missed the point of the OP and the guy you pulled the
d&dish from:
all the op is asking for is coherent story lines. a plot, an adventure if you will.

I would second his request, i like the story lines. it took me about 3 years to
realize that the Bergthrym spoken of in stk was the "chief" in threnal
south part 3. when i did, i was like . . . wow. coherent stories that tie stuff
together are what the op was looking for and I concur.

It took me 4 1/2 years and your post to realize this fact. That is what I love however, a story line that has a long arc and that I may not pick up on right away. I would hate to see the story behind the quests sacrificed in order to make the game more arcade.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It IS D&D-ish and you are playing at our table.

See, D&D can be anything. It can have a side game of cards, or dice. It can go to weird places, it can break it's own rules. D&D 'by the book' has gone to horror, post apocalyptic places, released a dice game for inside taverns(challenges), had cowboys and space aliens, and even Alice in Wonderland(Xorat I guess would be our version). There are rules for skill challenges (jump puzzles, trap rooms exc) and combat.

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

That said, not everything is for everyone. There are full systems I don't use, but it is nice that they exist, someday I may use them. Just like tabletop there are different types of gamers, and as designers we attempt to give each arch type something interesting at least once a year.

Variety is a good thing.

But I can't jump worth a darn.

And mostly, I want to go into dungeons and beat up monsters.

[Captain_Wizbang]

It IS D&D-ish and you are playing at our table.

See, D&D can be anything. It can have a side game of cards, or dice. It can go to weird places, it can break it's own rules. D&D 'by the book' has gone to horror, post apocalyptic places, released a dice game for inside taverns(challenges), had cowboys and space aliens, and even Alice in Wonderland(Xorat I guess would be our version). There are rules for skill challenges (jump puzzles, trap rooms exc) and combat.

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

That said, not everything is for everyone. There are full systems I don't use, but it is nice that they exist, someday I may use them. Just like tabletop there are different types of gamers, and as designers we attempt to give each arch type something interesting at least once a year.

Well put.
To quote E. Gary Gygax, "let's not tell the DM's they dont need the books"

[Blank_Zero]

It IS D&D-ish and you are playing at our table.

See, D&D can be anything. It can have a side game of cards, or dice. It can go to weird places, it can break it's own rules. D&D 'by the book' has gone to horror, post apocalyptic places, released a dice game for inside taverns(challenges), had cowboys and space aliens, and even Alice in Wonderland(Xorat I guess would be our version). There are rules for skill challenges (jump puzzles, trap rooms exc) and combat.

Anything goes. Anything. From the super serious lore stuff, to dancing kobolds. It is all D&D.

That said, not everything is for everyone. There are full systems I don't use, but it is nice that they exist, someday I may use them. Just like tabletop there are different types of gamers, and as designers we attempt to give each arch type something interesting at least once a year.

Some people just don't like Mario sequences. Sad, isn't it?

[joaofalcao]

See, D&D can be anything.....

This is exactly why D&D is dying.

You cant please everyone. You just cant. May be sad but it is true.

I ve read an article of no one else than Monte Cook. Dont have time to link it and doesnt remember the name of the article. Was very well written (its an icon of D&D after all) and very diplomatic and was all about this. You can make your own D&D and decide what do you wanna play, wether its horror or fast paced or wargame-boardlike or whatever.

So, whats going to be the face of D&D? all faces? Wrong, no face.

D&D always been a very special experience. It was all about simulation and forgetting our mundane and troublesome lives. The game was level based, but there was a deep feeling of imersion as the system reflected what actions could been taken on a given reality. It was a deep, epic medieval experience of killing dragons and saving the world.

On the days me and the friends were sad or the like, we played VtM. Theres no comparison between those too: D&D and VtM.

The 3rd and 3.5rd edition audience was a very special one with a given RPG mindset. When the oversimplified and wargamish 4th edition came out, this generation was mostly displeased.

See, I even bought the 4th edition basic books. D&D had a sacred feel for us, was very cult-like. I wasnt gonna let a change destroy the game for me. I tryed hard to play 4th edition.

I couldnt see it as an RPG System. Its a very close tied board game with resemblances to an RPG.

It wasnt an imersion experience, complex stories, details and worlds, it was a game like any other, a simple passtime a group of hipsters could enjoy.

It wasnt a D&D experience. Wasnt a special game. Was a game like any other.

D&D needs a face. It needs personality. Seriously, there are plenty of uncompromised games I can play to spend my time. I could play Gurps or turn on my my PS2, but when I wanted to do something special, I set up an D&D campaign.

And thats why players stopped playing 4th edition. Its so easy to replace it for other past time.

So, I have a huge respect for a guy like Monte Cook. I will cross my fingers for the guy and hope for a special 5th edition. But if he wants to please every crowd, hes most likely going to fail.

Now, DDO team, play a very close attention to its matter and game identity.

Give you an example, the new pet system. Theres a thread on lamma forums showing a baby wolf and a baby panter. Now close your ears because I am going to scream it loud.

THATS NOT D&D. THATS GENERIC ORIENTAL MANGA STYLE MMOS.

That totally kills my buzz.

There are plenty of MMOs of that style avaiable, and if your QA doesnt improve (sorry, its preetty bad of late not to mention the recycles) the hipster crowd is going to play another one of those games.

This game needs to be special. It must differs itself. It cannot be just another online game.

You can play Monte Cook here and put a UI /pets off option if you like. Will work for a guy like me. But every Xoriat Comedy Quest you put kill this game for me a bit more. Its like playing VtM and every malkavian is silly and dorky instead of mad and disturbing. One round drinking with beholders is fine. 2 Loses all fun about it.

Well, enough writting. Theres enough material here for pages and pages of drama.

I just hope my insights and opinions can shed some light unto this matter and perhaps something good comes out of it.

Peace.

[Nysrock]

I think it all boils down to the fact that DDO (And D&D) means different things to different people. Everyone has a very specific way they play the game so that it is enjoyable for them. Now, one of the oldest adages of all time still holds true: "You can't please all of the people all of the time."

That being said, I think the developers have done an amazing job trying to incorporate as many different aspects of D&D into DDO as they can. They make it so the power gamers can play their way, the casual players can play how they want to and everyone else can decide which extreme or middle ground suits them.

Growing up playing PnP D&D I don't think our group ever got beyond level 7 or 8 but we always had fun. We never followed encumbrance rules and our DM had fun bending and just plain breaking the rules as he saw fit so we could maximize our fun. Another friend of mine would play following EVERY rule down to characters having to write down what order any items were placed into their packs. That way was not fun for me and so I could never sit down to a gaming session with him.

But DDO is a melting pot where he and I and many others can meet up and quest together. I still find people that I can't group with because of playstyle differences but then there are still people IRL that I can't group with either.

So long rambling post aside, I think there is a little bit of everyone here in DDO. And for myself I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Callavan]

This is exactly why D&D is dying.
<snip>
THATS NOT D&D. THATS GENERIC ORIENTAL MANGA STYLE MMOS.

That totally kills my buzz.

There is much truth in what you say, but I'ma especially second the part about the buzzkill. Leave the japanamanga and other bizarre gaming elements that have nothing to do with D&D out of My D&D experience, please. Otherwise you might as well just go ahead and drop D&D out of the concept altogether.

Tyvm

[Saravis]

To comment on story in DDO, the issue isn't with the stories themselves or lack thereof, but rather the method of delivery. In the majority of quests the story is delivered via talking to an NPC. The problem with that is only the person who talks to the NPC gets the story and to everyone else it just becomes a directional pointer rather than a meaningful journey. This problem gets worse when you realize that the majority of players that will do the talking are the ones that are already familiar with the quest and just want to whip through it, leaving the newbies and such in the dark about what's going on.

This issue isn't everywhere in DDO, as there are places, such as ToD, where the story is performed for everyone. Its just, regretfully, in the majority of the content. Perhaps we can get more presentable stories.

[Vormaerin]

In the majority of quests the story is delivered via talking to an NPC.

You do realize the text shows up in the chat window, right?

[Saravis]

You do realize the text shows up in the chat window, right?

No I didn't, I must have that option disabled, unless you're talking about overhead text, which isn't what I'm talking about.

[MartinusWyllt]

Having come from AD&D 2nd. edition I found Eberron quite the culture shock. Between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms the idea you could walk up to someone in a marketplace and buy magical potions, scrolls and wands was astounding. I've adjusted, though, obviously, and like the airship and Robert Aspirin-esque magical trinket explosion.

As for the mario aspects specifically I'm mostly fine with those bits, but would be better satisfied if lag moments, perspective-shifting problems and invisible walls weren't problematic. Coal chamber is my favorite for having mysterious invisible walls see me sliding off the ledge and back down to the bottom. This doesn't happen often now, but, gosh, it is still certainly annoying. Falling in mysterious directions in other quests also presents challenges to my personal enjoyment.

As for storylines what I would like to see and what it looks like is coming is more customization of quest dialog based on who your character is. U13 appears to be introducing this with automatic knowledge feats. Alignment mattering would be nice, too. As a player, though, I could actually read dialogue boxes more than I do. Heck, even having the ghouls in Misery's Peak say something other than "fresh meat" when your warforged rolls into the scene would be a nice touch.

PvP, though, well, I don't think D&D is well-suited for that and other games designed around PvP will always satisfy that desire much better. One idea I saw that I did like would be introducing competitive PvE.

Anyway, TL/DR: Some jumping/twich requirements would be better with a better interface, but overall there's no DOOOoooOOOMm!!