Con vrs Int and Invisi vrs hide, Wiz/rog

[treehugger20]

ok.. Im currious how many points in con people like to invest, and how many you should have for later in the game?

You get points to invest as you lvl up.. (lvl 3 wiz gives you a +1 to spend) the +1 INT will give me another point to spend on skills.. (which at this point would add up to letting me pick +16 more.. which is a nice chunch of points)

the con on the other hand, more HP, but im already added tough, and im also gonna add the hafling racial toughness stuff as well, and perhaps some save bonuses. And i could always add more points later right? So far im not having many issues with living, as im more of a charm/illusionist/buffs, with some damage from time to time. vrs someone hurrling fireballs constantly which in that case i would think con would help..

anyways.. Im just kinda currious about the kinda numbers i should be thinking about acheiving in both stats.. with all things consitered in a Rog/wiz build.



Another thing im wondering is about stealth. With hide and move silently, and invisiblity. Are there times when hide is better than invisiblity? Or does invis always trump hide? I'd have to of course put puts in move silently no mater what, but should i be worried about maxing it? It's kinda hard to tell if someone is noticing me cause they spot me, or hear me.. But it looks more like hear.

I was consitering taking that enhancer that lets you cast spells with no cost, as often as you want, with a slight reduction in total spell points. In that case i could basically be constantly invisible outside of when in combat and for just a slight cost in enhancer points, atleast thats the way it seems. I was also kinda wondering if those types of enhancers are worth it. Some seem to take a lotta spell points away, But i guess the side part, if its a spell you use constantly, that might add up right? can you enhance those spells?

Basically im trying to get a handle on what types of enhancers i could/should be using..

[Enoach]

Constitution really should have an up front investment and not use Level Ups for best effect. However, always plan on having on the highest +Con item that will bring you to an even number in your gear strategy. Depending on the available points it is recommended to have no less then 12 starting constitution for non-front line and no less than 14 starting constitution for front line, more is better. Goal is to then add at least a +2 tome here as soon as you can. Couple this with a +6 item and you will be 20 before buffs.


On hide, move silent and Invisibility. When able to cast invisibility investment only is needed in move silent as Invisibility will cover the hide part of the equation

Every time you do a combat action you will lose invisibility. Also many named bosses have been given True Sight making invisibility not effective.

On the AM SLAs. That is a balance - each tier you gain SP that can either be used for your spell book - or traded to give yourself a very cheap spell to cast. If you actually use the spell a lot than it is worth the investment. If you don't, than it is a poor trade.

[Ukenburger]

Another thing im wondering is about stealth. With hide and move silently, and invisiblity. Are there times when hide is better than invisiblity? Or does invis always trump hide? I'd have to of course put puts in move silently no mater what, but should i be worried about maxing it? It's kinda hard to tell if someone is noticing me cause they spot me, or hear me.. But it looks more like hear.

Due to some poor development implementation back in Module 9 the Hide skill is rarely needed. It only comes to play when you are in bright lighting (when you have multiple "eyes" while sneaking), which accounts for about 10% of the content in DDO. Many of those situations where lighting is a factor, invisibility takes care of it (as creatures who can't see invisibility can't make a Spot check vs. your Hide score).

[MsEricka]

For pure wizard

max int, max con, rest into str

For 18wiz/2rog

max int, max con, rest into str

For pure sorc

max cha, max con, rest into str

For 18sorc/2rog

max cha, max con, rest into str

I think you get the point.

[Gurei]

For pure wizard

max int, max con, rest into str

For 18wiz/2rog

max int, max con, rest into str

For pure sorc

max cha, max con, rest into str

For 18sorc/2rog

max cha, max con, rest into str

I think you get the point.

MsEricka, you always have great posts, i just have a problem with one thing. I will SLAP anyone that thinks 18sorc/2rog is a good idea. Not only are you sh***ing on sorc's capstone enhancement but they wouldnt have the int boost to go towards disable device that wiz get OR the skill points to put into disable device.
I'm a noob on many fronts, but by all means as an arcane fanatic PLEASE edit your post and exclude that last combination, one deserving of a million lesser hearts of wood to fix.

But yeah, OP put all ability points into int>con>str. As for skills, make sure you have: concentration, disable device, spot, and search. UMD is very useful also so if you have extras put them here. ....Don't forget the 1 point into tumble.

[ArcaneMelee]

MsEricka, you always have great posts, i just have a problem with one thing. I will SLAP anyone that thinks 18sorc/2rog is a good idea. Not only are you sh***ing on sorc's capstone enhancement but they wouldnt have the int boost to go towards disable device that wiz get OR the skill points to put into disable device.
I'm a noob on many fronts, but by all means as an arcane fanatic PLEASE edit your post and exclude that last combination, one deserving of a million lesser hearts of wood to fix.
...

I wouldn't splash a sorc (again) either, but you're blowing it way out of proportion. There are ways to make it work, although I'd be the first person to argue that Wizard is a better choice.

Op, I never spend more than 1:1 build points on Con, although it's tempting. Put your level up points into Int if you want to be a successful caster, and start with max Int.

[Calebro]

Op, I never spend more than 1:1 build points on Con, although it's tempting.

This. Well, maybe not *exactly* that, as I sometimes go a little more, but I agree with the general idea.
The difference between max Con and spending on a 1:1 basis is 40hp at cap.
The difference between max Con and spending on a 1:1 basis is 10 build points.
If 40hp is going to break your build, then your build is already broken. But those 10 build points could come in very handy if you're not building a completely min/max'd character.
So you could min/max and max Con, or you could lose 40hp and raise Str/Dex/Cha for carrying capacity/stealth/UMD.

I very rarely opt for those 40hp.

[cru121]

Then again, if you invest in Con, you can do nice things like this:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=361180
And if you don't, you can excel at hiding and you move really silently.

[Calebro]

Then again, if you invest in Con, you can do nice things like this:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=361180
And if you don't, you can excel at hiding and you move really silently.

Yeah, because that's obviously impossible unless you max your Con.
Unpossible I say!

[treehugger20]

can you be more specific with "max" con? that can mean so many different things.. max for your race? Max before extra points, Max with gear?


Why all this talk about Maxing str too? what am i missing that str is important for a spell caster, or non melee?

[DDOisFree]

I don't see what's so difficult to understand about 'max con', at character creation you max your INT on a wizard, or CHA on a sorc, and then put every remaining point into con. Every 4 levels you raise your primary spell casting attribute.

At level 20 with the right equips, you should easily be able to obtain at least 40 INT / CHA, plus 30 CON and have your HP at around 450-500 with minimal effort.

[deahamlet]

I did all sorts of experiments with my poor little sorcerer... in the end, tbh, what worked out the best was 18 CHA, 18 CON. I only have Improved False Life at 10, CON+4/CHA+4, medium guild slots for HP and SP. I managed to survive even a long hallway of traps because of my HP when before when I tried to put points in STR and DEX and INT, I was dying if a trap was just sensing me let alone being tripped. :P

A lot of HP is very nice at low levels especially. At high levels it makes it a bit less ARG before that GS HP item is finished and that Superior False Life epic item is acquired, etc.

On my wiz: 18 INT/18 CON, any future life I'll put extra points in STR (since TRs start at level 1 so I can't use STR items for enfeeblement in the beginning).
I just don't see the point of not taking it. Sure, I also use +2 INT tomes on the sorcerer for the extra skill point, but I found surviving a better thing than skill points for ... bluff/jump/balance (Conc and UMD are covered by the base 2 pts you get).

[Ganolyn]

Every time you do a combat action you will lose invisibility. Also many named bosses have been given True Sight making invisibility not effective.

All Frost Giants have True Seeing too and it seems some other giants have it as well. I was in GH yesterday doing rares and I was running around with invisibilty on. A Fire Giant that I hadn't gotten anywhere near followed me quite a distance to engage me while his Minotaur and Ogre companions just stayed put.

[treehugger20]

I don't see what's so difficult to understand about 'max con', at character creation you max your INT on a wizard, or CHA on a sorc, and then put every remaining point into con. Every 4 levels you raise your primary spell casting attribute.

At level 20 with the right equips, you should easily be able to obtain at least 40 INT / CHA, plus 30 CON and have your HP at around 450-500 with minimal effort.

Well if you read this thread,, you have people saying put 18 points into start,, You also have people saying 14 or 16 points.. then adding gear?? What about lvling up? you get to spend points then too, i could spend those points on con, Or int..

there are also tombs, and tons of other things to consiter. I see people say 20 con is good, i see people say you want 30 con.. or more.. Seems to me it is a heck of a big difference, especially consitering there are so many ways you can increase hit points, and saves, and attributes ingame.

Soo.. that is what is difficult to understand.. when someone says MAX.. it is completely arbitratry. then you toss in gear, and i have no clue what that would even mean. What parts i could use, at what lvls, and such..

Im trying to figure out numbers i should shoot for, by certain lvls, and things i might want to look for ingame to help me on my way.

[ArcaneMelee]

can you be more specific with "max" con? that can mean so many different things.. max for your race? Max before extra points, Max with gear?
...

I think they mean "spend every build point you can on your main stat (int for a wiz), then spend every remaining build point that you can on Con, and if you have any left over put 'em in Str."

So, a 32-point WF Wiz would have

Int: 18 (8 + 16 build points)
Con: 20 (10 + 16 build points)

A 34-point WF Wiz (1 TR) would have

Int: 18 (8 + 16 build points)
Con: 20 (10 + 16 build points)
Str: 10 (8 + 2 build points)

etc...

...
Why all this talk about Maxing str too? what am i missing that str is important for a spell caster, or non melee?

If your Strength is low, and you get hit with a strength penalty, you lose a lot of mobility. Mobility (not the feat) is a valuable method to avoid taking damage, so if you lose it, you increase your chance of dying.

You can equip gear to make up for a low strength, but trading 2 points of Con for 6 points in Strength makes it easier to fit all your desired gear in.

[Faent]

can you be more specific with "max" con? that can mean so many different things.. max for your race? Max before extra points, Max with gear? Why all this talk about Maxing str too? what am i missing that str is important for a spell caster, or non melee?

Pick your race. Then take CON and INT as high as you can. That's what it means. You'll have a few extra points left over. These are best placed into STR on a wizard. It increase your carrying capacity. It makes you less susceptible to Ray of Enfeeblement (being helpless sucks, and if you don't put some points into STR, you will wind up helpless a lot). You might think DEX is a better choice, but it isn't, since you can take Insightful Reflexes.

[deahamlet]

Well if you read this thread,, you have people saying put 18 points into start,, You also have people saying 14 or 16 points.. then adding gear?? What about lvling up? you get to spend points then too, i could spend those points on con, Or int..

Do not spend level-up points in CON. Wizards all 5 level up points in INT, sorcerer in CHA, fighters in STR, etc. Not in CON.

Certain races get -2 or +2 to CON. Drow for example can only get to 16 CON at char creation menu. WF get +2 so they can reach 20 CON at char creation menu at most.

You can also get Human Adaptability: CON, but most people would rather get Human Adaptability: INT, and most people don't use the 6AP it takes to get Greater Human Adaptability just to put another point in CON.

Tomes, for a wizard: INT, CON, maybe STR if you have the resources. Maybe CHA if you want UMD. For gear, aim to have INT and CON gear, some people take lower CON at character creation and get 12 or 14 STR in order to not have to wear STR gear. If you start with 8 STR, you need one of your items to have +X STR. CHA gear is also useful for UMD.

[Havok.cry]

For stealth on a wizard, check out ghoste's shadowmage build. His post has all the info you need to succesfully stealth, and he has videos. I would read his stuff before trying to sort through various people's opinion on the matter.

[svinja]

Well if you read this thread,, you have people saying put 18 points into start,, You also have people saying 14 or 16 points.. then adding gear?? What about lvling up? you get to spend points then too, i could spend those points on con, Or int..

there are also tombs, and tons of other things to consiter. I see people say 20 con is good, i see people say you want 30 con.. or more.. Seems to me it is a heck of a big difference, especially consitering there are so many ways you can increase hit points, and saves, and attributes ingame.

Soo.. that is what is difficult to understand.. when someone says MAX.. it is completely arbitratry. then you toss in gear, and i have no clue what that would even mean. What parts i could use, at what lvls, and such..

Im trying to figure out numbers i should shoot for, by certain lvls, and things i might want to look for ingame to help me on my way.

When people talk about wizards (at least full wizards, that will have 17+ wizard levels and mainly be spell casters), it is generally assumed that you prioritize INT over anything else.

Starting points, levelup points, human enhancements, etc - if it will result in an additional INT bracket, it always goes into INT. In the context of CON or anything else, "max" really means "max without giving up INT".

When it comes to gear and tomes, increasing CON and INT are not really opposing goals (you don't have to choose one or the other like with levelups), so gear and tomes are not really relevant. You just use the best you have available.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

A Wizard really needs to Max Int on creation and put every single lvl up point into Int, IMO.

You will never regret having max Int. And I think you will more often than not regret not having maxed Int.

About Hide/Invis

some monsters can See Invisibility.
and these monsters are very common throughout the game, especially at certain lvls of quests.

So, you have very little chance to not be seen from one of these monsters if you do not have a decent Hide skill (and are sneaking)

However, most groups do not cooperate with people who want to sneak around. And although I think stealth is still very usable in a zerging group, the methods of using stealth at high speed do not really need any investment in Hide/MS skills to pull off most of them. (in fact most of them are simply using Invisibiity instead of hide/ms)

But if you find that you like stealth, I think there is no substitue for having good Hide/MS skills.