A truly crazy insane paladin

[whomhead]

I guess I would call this my take on the paladin as battle cleric, but without any actual cleric levels. Probably just a flavor build, if it even qualifies for that, but then I can kinda see this glimmer of effectiveness that could actually be pretty awesome. I honestly don't know. Would definitely like some feed-back on this... or just call me crazy. That's OK too.

The basic idea is to couple moderate melee DPS (via swinging a khopesh and blasting a runearm) with pretty darn good healing in both area of effect, from tossing curative admixtures around, and artificer-boosted heal scrolls. Combined scroll + admixture heals should be sufficient to keep a 6-man group up and running through at least easy epics, though would be highly dependent on the abilities of the group.

Oh yeah, this guy can also provide rogue skills (search, disable, lock picking) throughout the game, even into epics. And there's even a smattering of ranged DPS, through endless fusillade + runearm! Would be a significant gear investment, but pretty good ranged DPS can come from a Lit2 repeater + Toven's Hamme, if you can hit anything, that is.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 6 Artificer) 
Hit Points: 324
Spell Points: 445 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 18
Will: 18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    23
Dexterity            14                    16
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     4
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         6                    12
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle                2                     5
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            2                     5
Jump                  2                     6
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             6                    26
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     3
Search                6                    26
Spot                  3                     7
Swim                  2                     6
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      6                    27

Level 1 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell
Spell (1): Curative Admixture: Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Conjure Bolts
Spell (1): Master's Touch
Spell (1): Ablative Armor


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Spell (1): Bless
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (1): Lesser Restoration
Spell (1): Lionheart
Spell (1): Protection From Evil
Spell (1): Resistance
Spell (1): Seek Eternal Rest
Spell (1): Virtue


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 10 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Spell (1): Resist Energy


Level 11 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Curative Admixture: Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Angelskin
Spell (2): Bull's Strength
Spell (2): Eagle's Spendor
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Remove Paralysis


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot
Spell (2): Elemental Weapons


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Dispel Magic
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
Spell (3): Prayer
Spell (3): Remove Blindness
Spell (3): Remove Curse


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 19 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Byeshk Weapons


Level 20 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Curative Admixture: Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use I
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use II
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge I
Enhancement: Uncaring Master
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery II

Some discussionnary points:
- You can swap to bastard sword instead of khopesh, if you prefer, but then you'd probably want to take the THF feats in exchange for precise shot, point blank shot, and IC:Ranged. I would primarily do this if there's little/no hope of hitting with the crossbow with only a 14 base dex.
- I would strongly consider starting off with extend at level 1, then swapping to empower at later levels. With all three metamagics + paladin devotion, CA:Cure Serious Wounds should hit for 3d8+5 = approximately 19 base heal x 2 maximize x 1.5 empower x 1.5 empower healing x 1.3 paladin devotion x 1.5 superior potency = 166 hit points per toss, times whatever heal amp the target has.
- Not sure how the artificer knowledge: potions would fit into this. Wiki says it effects it, but not sure how? If it is significant, then this could be a large boost to the build.
-Also not even sure if paladin devotion enhancements effect the curative admixtures. Does anyone know?
- Monk levels are for the feats and evasion. Could swap with fighter level instead, but that feels like it offers less to me.

OK, that's all I got. Now, flame away!!

[Sirgleno]

Sounds hard to level, but mad flava!

+1 for putting it out here.

Edit: Guess the +1 isn't working today via my mobile browser.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Rune Arm DPS really loses it's lustre with only a few artificer levels. I'd suggest TWF'ing or THF'ing instead. Overall, yes, your right, it can heal easy epics in a good group but only because easy epics don't need a healer

I wouldn't expect much from this build.

[jeremyt]

14 base dex wont be too much of a handicap for hitting things. My arti started with just 2 more and does just fine. granted he has 3 fighter PLs so maybe im a bit skewed on that info ATM.

Your taking a moderately broken low DPS melee class and gutting it of its bread and butter (zeal) which it gets at 14 or 15 i think and TWF procs of smite/DS AND DM 3/4. Your going to be shooting the runearm as a lev 6 arti, so no matter what runearm you get..its still going to suck hard and add so little DPS it will probably not be worth the run speed ding incurred, also artis get insightful damage at 7, without that spell xbows get ZERO stat modifiers to damage. So, your melee AND ranged DPS is not going to be moderate..its going to suck (hard). not like 70% full melee DPS suck like a battle cleric (which actually doesnt suck)..but suck *hard*, like less than 50%. Your stat level ups into strength is a huge mistake as that further (fully obsoletes) whatever ranged DPS viability you could claim and tries to patch over the melee angle..which has no hopes of ever not sucking with this setup.

Flavor it is! a stinky nasty hope you level it flavor

[Bacab]

its awful...

have fun with it though

I call these "Challenge" builds. As in, if you can dominate (like fill any niche), it means YOU are a good player.

I prefer the 7SOR/7CLR/6WIZ build. It really is hard mode.

Oh to answer a question...I am pretty sure the Arty potion things work like wands and scrolls...as in PLD devotion will not help them...I may be wrong though. Though the more I think about it...it depends on how Turbine "types" the pots.

[Calebro]

Oh to answer a question...I am pretty sure the Arty potion things work like wands and scrolls...as in PLD devotion will not help them...I may be wrong though. Though the more I think about it...it depends on how Turbine "types" the pots.

How they typed the pots is irrelevant because the cure bombs are conjuration (healing) spells. The only difference between those and Mass Cures are the spell levels (these are much lower) and the +x/level is slightly lower (but not so much as to be a hindrance).
Ardor works, so I would assume that Devotion would as well. My Arty acts as a healer quite frequently. 2x Cannith crafted Superior Ardor daggers (no ML, so they last all the way to cap) gives 18 mins, with a small stack of ardor pots as backups just in case. Those daggers/pots make up the difference from not having as many "caster levels" on the spell, so they're almost as effective as a true healer's cures, just slower. With Max + Emp they hit for well over 100, sometimes 200+. It's Mass Cures at level 1, 3, & 6, and it's amazing for low levels. By the time you need more you have the UMD for mega-scrolls (but not in this case, as the next Arty levels don't come until 10+ in this build). I was hitting no-fail heal scrolls at level 15 (90% at level 14) when buffed and geared for it. And that was with a starting Cha of 9.

[Bacab]

How they typed the pots is irrelevant because the cure bombs are conjuration (healing) spells. The only difference between those and Mass Cures are the spell levels (these are much lower) and the +x/level is slightly lower (but not so much as to be a hindrance).
Ardor works, so I would assume that Devotion would as well. My Arty acts as a healer quite frequently. 2x Cannith crafted Superior Ardor daggers (no ML, so they last all the way to cap) gives 18 mins, with a small stack of ardor pots as backups just in case. Those daggers/pots make up the difference from not having as many "caster levels" on the spell, so they're almost as effective as a true healer's cures, just slower. With Max + Emp they hit for well over 100, sometimes 200+. It's Mass Cures at level 1, 3, & 6, and it's amazing for low levels. By the time you need more you have the UMD for mega-scrolls (but not in this case, as the next Arty levels don't come until 10+ in this build). I was hitting no-fail heal scrolls at level 15 (90% at level 14) when buffed and geared for it. And that was with a starting Cha of 9.

Very nice...I was curious if they were "augmentable" with ardor and stuff. Sounds like they are.

[Calebro]

Very nice...I was curious if they were "augmentable" with ardor and stuff. Sounds like they are.

Yep. With mass cures at low levels, Artys are the best low-to-mid level healers in the game. Much better than Clerics and FvSs in the early levels. You just have to be prepared for it. Clrs & FvSs can do it by default. Artys need to have the spells prep'd and a little gear to supplement. The only thing they're missing is enhancements to boost the effectiveness of their cures, but at low-to-mid levels the "true" healers don't have enough of them to matter anyway, so that's almost a moot point. In the first 10-12 levels of the game, an Artificer can be a better healer than a "healer" is.

[Theolin]

Made notes in this thread on what cleric enhancements stack with the arti pot bombs and some other general comments about them .... might be useful to you

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=354607

[whomhead]

I thought it was pretty clear that this build was never intended to be anything other than a crazy experiment in what could be done with paladin. I remember a thread a while back where someone was sick of seeing people on the forums saying "don't build a battle cleric, just build a paladin," so they put out the challenge to build a paladin that could function as a battle cleric. This is my so-far-outside-the-box-that-you-can't-even-tell-where-the-box-is way of building a paladin that can do that, and still contribute other things to the party as well.

That said, I think you all are right that rune arms aren't the way to go, and that the DPS will be pretty bad all around. So, thanks to your ever helpful and cheery advice, I've decided to switch the build up a bit and break the only other rules about paladins (the first being that they aren't healers): your damage is dependent on high-crit melee weapons, and ranged doesn't work. So now, just when you thought this thread couldn't get any crazier, I present the ranged DPS, battle-cleric, paladin....!!!

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Paladin \ 8 Artificer) 
Hit Points: 330
Spell Points: 618 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 14
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength              8                    10
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         18                    28
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     7
Bluff                 3                     4.5
Concentration         6                    29
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        8                    32
Haggle                6                    18
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  1                     2
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                 -1                     0
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         1                     2
Open Lock             5                    17
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                4                    10
Search                8                    32
Spot                  3                    23
Swim                 -1                     0
Tumble                2                     3
Use Magic Device      6                    28

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Artificer)


Level 3 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 9 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 10 (Artificer)


Level 11 (Artificer)


Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage II
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Uncaring Master
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Intelligence I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device I
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery III

The idea is to heal with a shield and heavy repeater out, providing bursts of ranged damage and lobbing curative admixtures into the fray to keep the group alive. Based on what I'm reading in other threads (thanks for the link, btw!), I'm thinking that the CSW admixture should be hitting for close to 200 point heals. Then there's heal scrolls with artificer enhancements for spot healing as a back-up healer... potentially even in raids.

[eachna_gislin]

That said, I think you all are right that rune arms aren't the way to go, and that the DPS will be pretty bad all around. So, thanks to your ever helpful and cheery advice, I've decided to switch the build up a bit and break the only other rules about paladins (the first being that they aren't healers): your damage is dependent on high-crit melee weapons, and ranged doesn't work. So now, just when you thought this thread couldn't get any crazier, I present the ranged DPS, battle-cleric, paladin....!!!

The idea is to heal with a shield and heavy repeater out, providing bursts of ranged damage and lobbing curative admixtures into the fray to keep the group alive. Based on what I'm reading in other threads (thanks for the link, btw!), I'm thinking that the CSW admixture should be hitting for close to 200 point heals. Then there's heal scrolls with artificer enhancements for spot healing as a back-up healer... potentially even in raids.

I keep pulling all these neat rune arms but I play paladin. So I was thinking...what would happen if I multiclassed pally/arti. And then I found this forum posting.

Let us know how it plays (played?)