Remove stacking Damage over Time

[Calebro]

a bunch of whining about how we all hate casters

No, we don't hate casters. We just know that the DoTs are extremely OP. We're not crying for nerfs. We're asking for balance. There's a huge difference.
You know how we know that they're OP? We know because we play casters and have a little common sense.
Continuing to buff classes that are lower on the power scale is exactly what leads to problems like this, and when it happens the answer is not to buff yet again, the answer is to nerf.
Sometimes nerfs are warranted, and the DoTs definitely need to be nerfed in some form or another.

[Aaxeyu]

/signed

[Rodasch]

Someone's going to accuse you of being out of touch with arcanes and divines ;-)

I think more than a save is necessary. Either way, I arcanes and divines before the DoTs. The DoTs certainly make playing them more fun ... but I can't lie to myself and say they aren't in their current form too strong. They are.

Here's what I'd do to the DoT's:

Niac's: Remove triple-stack-ability, double base damage. Add effect: Slow 50%. Add Save: Reflex for half damage (on cast, all ticks affected by initial roll) Add Save: Fort to negate slow only, periodic save to break slow early. Change cool down to 10 seconds.

Eladar's: Remove triple-stack-ability, double base damage. Add effect: Convulsions (penalties to all saves, ability checks, AC, attack rolls due to electrocution induced convulsions). Add Save: Reflex for half damage (on cast, all ticks affected by initial roll) Add Save: Fort to negate convulsions only, periodic save to break convulsions early. Change cool down to 10 seconds.

Divine Vengeance: Remove triple-stack-ability, double base damage. Add effect: Blind. Add Save: Reflex for half damage (on cast, all ticks affected by initial roll) Add Save: Fort to negate blind only, recurring Fort to break blind early. Change cool down to 10 seconds.

That way they're still effective damage tools, plus they add effects that help augment melee dps/abilities and benefit more than just the caster's personal dps. The reflex save applies to damage, the fort save applies to the secondary effects.

[Saravis]

Great idea, lets also make it so that weapon damage doesn't stack as well, take only the highest damage produced of all melees.
/sarcasm

/not signed

[davidolson22]

Along the same lines, please remove Carnifex, Icy burst kits, SoS, eSoS, epic weapons, bloodstone, any non weapon that improves weapons really, Lit 2s, and barbarians. Please? (where are all these nerf cleric threads coming from?)

Seriously, I don't understand this idea. DP is one of the few sources of firepower a cleric has against enemies that don't move and have death ward. Unlike a barb who can bring along a hireling to fill in their weakness (a cleric hireling), but a cleric can't cause the hireling melee have less dps than a min strength cleric wielding a wet noodle.

[HarveyMilk]

This was hashed out in a long thread about 8 months ago.

My bottom line: keep triple stacking. It's more fun and penalizes you for letting the stack(s) lapse. That's a good mechanic imo. Add a save for half, as suggested by Calebro (and many others previously).

Kinerd's point is very important. Dot dmg is maxed once you have a superior 5 clicky (and eardweller). That is bad. Add a save for half.

But, I also think secondary effects would also be fun a good way to make the lower dps not feel too nerfy.

I like slowed movement/attacks/spells by 5% for niacs (boostable with new enhancements), chance to arc onto other targets for elader's (also boostable) and a penalty to saves/ac for DP (also boostable). And bards need a sonic dot that expends a song to cast, triple stacks, and lowers the enemies' attack bonus and dmg, with a save for half based on perform skill vs. Will save.

That would be fun.

[HarveyMilk]

Seriously, I don't understand this idea. DP is one of the few sources of firepower a cleric has against enemies that don't move and have death ward. Unlike a barb who can bring along a hireling to fill in their weakness (a cleric hireling), but a cleric can't cause the hireling melee have less dps than a min strength cleric wielding a wet noodle.

I agree. It doesn't need to lose triple stack (huge nerf), they need a save for half dmg on each tick.

[Vengeance777]

/not signed.

The Dots are about the only way a non warforged Air Savant can contribute to the new raids. The bosses have electric resist so lightning debuff isn't very useful for melees. Most of the lightning spells have reflex saves, even with 42 evocation dc you can not hit The Lord of Blades reliably with your reflex based lightning spells. There's also no lightning spells over level 6 which hurts a lot in Master Artificer as you can't hurt the Purple Titan with your spell school (all the other schools have a level 8 or higher spell that can hurt him at least, Greater Shout is worthless on him) . Dotting Pillars, Toven and the Green titan are one of the few reasons Air Savants are able to get a spot in the new raids.

Edit: The save for half damage wouldn't be too bad so long as the spell itself was still no save.

[morticianjohn]

I fail to see the problem with dots. They are very situational (primarily used against bosses).

Also think about the fallout of your suggestion OP. Sorcs still have sla and evoc archmages can still do decent spell DPS but divines have NO other option. This spell is already borderline uncastable in some boss fights (like epic velah where you are better off sparing the mana for a couple extra mass heals (if they are needed).

And btw your suggestion is a weaker suggestion (and more complicated which isn't good) than simply adding a save. If they must be nerfed keep it simple.

[Angelus_dead]

We don't need a DoT for each element that stacks 3x, etc. etc.. Or light. Yeah it's handy, yeah it's great for boss DPS but honestly, we don't need it. I think it causes more problems downstream than anything else singularly. Adding a save won't do anything meaningful, it's really the fact that they are SP-cheap great damage spells. Even if they didn't stack they'd still be good.

For players to have stackable DOT spells is better than not having them.

However, there are definitely problems with those spells and they could be improved in several ways. It is already very popular to suggest that they get saving throws for half damage, but more could be done. For example, the damage scaling could be changed to sublinear: instead of the damage of double and triple stacks being 2x and 3x of normal, it could be just 1.5x and 2.25x. Or the spellpoint cost might not stay the same for all casts: casting it at triple stack could be more expensive than at single.

Another idea has been that the ongoing DOT becomes temporarily weaker if the caster gets too far away or blocked from LOS. And if the stackable DOT spells were nerfed in some ways, it could make sense to buff them to be easier to use, such as not starting cooldowns if they weren't cast, or allowing stack depth to persist somewhat longer than the damage does..

[Kinerd]

Actually, all you people crying that casters are over powered are the ones with a short sighted position.

Since you don't really know, I'll enlighten you people.

The enhancement re-tool is part of the balancing classes. It was stated by Madfloyd...pretty sure he is the one.

Instead of seeing what the dev's have planned and then go from there, you people cry for nerfs.

Could be that the dev's have something planned and none of us know what is actually in store, possibly even up some of the melee type of damage.

So, instead of asking for nerfs to casting classes because you people have a epeen to measure and want it to look big, maybe you people should actually wait and see what is coming down the road.

If they are actually over powered when the dev's do their thing, then we should ask for changes because if they do get changed before they do their class balance pass, then some of my characters are going to get screwed because of you people crying and whining.

LEAVE MY CHARACTERS ALONE!!!!!!!!

Seriously, you people all need to get a real grip.

My 20s are a cleric, a non-DPS wizard, and an exploiter ranger. If I am only considering myself, I see a net loss if DoTs are weakened. As is typical of ad hominem attacks, yours is predicated on an assumption, one that in case is catastrophically incorrect. I clearly articulated a problem with the DoTs that has nothing to do with arcane vs. melee but rather arcane vs. arcane. Doesn't it trouble you that you missed that distinction completely?

/not signed

I will believe there is a real problem the first time I get declined from a raid with the comment "Sorry, we already have one melee"

Hasn't happened yet when running my barbarian; but before DoTs, I used to get the analagous message from time to time when on my arcane

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Even if it isn't, you're touching on a distinct (but still very interesting) problem: should the game be balanced on what is the case or what people believe is the case? The complications are fascinating... how do you determine what people believe is the case? Is a majority sufficient? A plurality? A majority of the informed? Democracy, plutocracy, oligarchy, what is the right answer?

Even if only for practicality's sake, I think the devs should balance on what is the case. The interaction of people and information is just too chaotic.

Also think about the fallout of your suggestion OP. Sorcs still have sla and evoc archmages can still do decent spell DPS but divines have NO other option. This spell is already borderline uncastable in some boss fights (like epic velah where you are better off sparing the mana for a couple extra mass heals (if they are needed).

I agree with you, but should divines have a powerful spell DPS option? I love being able to take care of self-healing bosses when soloing on my clonk, but should I be able to? I do not know the answer, but I would hazard that every build should have a weakness, and preferably one distinct from and synergistic with other builds' weaknesses.

[Chette]

/not signed

This will relegate arcane casters back to haste/rage/displacers, max 1 per raid.

The DoTs should have a save for half damage, particularly the light DoT, as it throws off the melee/casting divine balance.

[grodon9999]

I just like trolling these threads to see the absolutely absurd rationalizations people post when trying to make the case that their casters aren't over-powered. We're getting some pretty good ones here.

[muny21]

/not signed.

casters are supposed to be over powered. is this the first dnd game you ever played? casters were always, and should always, be the death dealers and melees are supposed to be the support class. melees are supposed to protect the arcanes so they can cast massive area of effect spells dealing maximum damage to multiple enemies.

it is about time that arcanes get the power they are supposed to have and a nerf to them is counter productive.

[grodon9999]

/not signed.

casters are supposed to be over powered. is this the first dnd game you ever played? casters were always, and should always, be the death dealers and melees are supposed to be the support class. melees are supposed to protect the arcanes so they can cast massive area of effect spells dealing maximum damage to multiple enemies.

it is about time that arcanes get the power they are supposed to have and a nerf to them is counter productive.

-1

Glad you're not a game designer or a Turbine dev.

[muny21]

-1

Glad you're not a game designer or a Turbine dev.

sorry to burst your bubble but it is the truth. I been playing D&D since pool of radiance on commodore 64 and the mages were always the class doing must damage. the melees are just there to sweep in and finish off what was not killed by the mages fireballs. but i know all the melee kill counters out there can not take it anymore when they see arcanes 100+ and them 10. LOL.

I so love FOD enemies that barbs are swinging at to hear them whine and cry about it.

Long Live Over Powered Arcanes!

[Combat_Wombat]

/not signed

General request to all forumites: Please stop calling for nerfs to classes because you feel that the classes you prefer aren't as powerful. Suggest buffs to your preferred classes instead.

Except casters are so far above the content that balancing them down makes allot more sense then re-balancing the entire game up around them.

[Chette]

/not signed.

casters are supposed to be over powered. is this the first dnd game you ever played? casters were always, and should always, be the death dealers and melees are supposed to be the support class. melees are supposed to protect the arcanes so they can cast massive area of effect spells dealing maximum damage to multiple enemies.

it is about time that arcanes get the power they are supposed to have and a nerf to them is counter productive.

Casters in pen and paper had greater burst damage than melee's absolutely. But the way DDO is designed, most casters can sustain that burst damage through the entire raid/quest. What your describing is BAD for the game. Why would anybody want to play a character that does nothing except protect the wizard and clean up her scraps? Why not just have 12 wizards? The game needs balance.

Arcanes in their current form are overpowered, but simply removing the DoTs is not the way to do it. They should have a save for half damage. The cooldown on wail should be extended to 60 seconds and it should have a longer casting animation. There should be more random buffs on mobs, such as GH, deathward, displace, etc, just like players have. It won't fix everything, but it would be a start.

[taurean430]

Even if only for practicality's sake, I think the devs should balance on what is the case. The interaction of people and information is just too chaotic.I agree with you, but should divines have a powerful spell DPS option? I love being able to take care of self-healing bosses when soloing on my clonk, but should I be able to? I do not know the answer, but I would hazard that every build should have a weakness, and preferably one distinct from and synergistic with other builds' weaknesses.

The answer to this part of your post is yes, they should.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cleric_Spell_List

There are a butt-ton of missing spells available to the class. In DDO clerics are not presented as the juggernauts that they are. They were denied a multitude of spells and abilities that leave the class stuck mostly babysitting others.

Some notables from that list of which i am accustomed to having access to:

0-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (ORISONS)

Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws
Light: Object shines like a torch.

1ST-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.

2ND-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Consecrate M: Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Desecrate M: Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Make Whole: Repairs an object.
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage.
Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius.
Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.

3RD-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.

4TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Air Walk: Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.

5TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Dispel Chaos: +4 bonus against attacks.
Dispel Evil: +4 bonus against attacks.
Dispel Good: +4 bonus against attacks.
Dispel Law: +4 bonus against attacks.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.

6TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Animate Objects: Objects attack your foes.
Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Forbiddance M: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Wind Walk: You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.

7TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Dictum: Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects.
Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.

8TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius.
Shield of Law F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Unholy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.

9TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS

Gate X: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Miracle X: Requests a deity’s intercession.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.


Anyway those are some of the notables that the cleric class should have available to them but do not. The non inclusion of these spells and others create an environment that supports clerics only being healers, which is not the case. This doesn't include domains and other perks that the class is supposed to have to retain it's designation to it's PNP counterpart.

Divine Punishment implemented as it is does too much damage. Yet nerfing it back to the stone age isn't practical I believe. One of the main reasons you don't see more clerics running around is the inherent nerfing of the class present before you even roll one up. Unlike the general opinion of melee players on these forums, the class is intended to be a powerful caster.

[Carpone]

/not signed

General request to all forumites: Please stop calling for nerfs to classes because you feel that the classes you prefer aren't as powerful. Suggest buffs to your preferred classes instead.

^^ This ^^