18/2 Fighter/Monk w/ Monk Dilly

[Faent]

I am deciding on my tank's final life. After much thought, I have decided to do some serious toying with the idea of a a half-elf 18/2 FTR/MONK with monk dilly. This will be a 36 point build with +3 tomes as well as fighter and barbarian past lives. He's a TR away from existing, and I don't want to screw this build up.

Two levels of MNK grants no healing amp, thus the monk-dilly. This will net me 20% Human Improved Recovery and 20% HELF Improved Recovery. (I believe this is correct. One does not lock out the other per the wiki. The Online Character Planner permits it as well. Confirmation would be nice.) Total healing-amp will be:

10% Ship Buff
10% Finger Necklace
20% Human Improved Recovery II
20% Half Elf Improved Recovery II
10% Dragontouched Armor
20% ToD Ring
30% Epic Gloves of the Claw
---------------------------------
300% Healing Amp

The build will wield an eFang with triple Dragonmarks for Proficiency, Incite 15%, and a +4 Insight Bonus to both AC and saves.

Hate:

75% Superior Defensive Stance
10% Incite (eFang)
10% Epic Brawn's Spirits trinket (surely doesn't stack, right?)
15% Incite (eFang)
15% Incite (Dragonmarked eFang, might not stack? help?)
20% Incite (eFang)
20% Greater Vulkoor's Might (Claw Set, might not stack? help?)
15% Stalwart Defender ToD Set

The build will have dual intimidate timers and easily no-fail eLoB. I see no reason to be concerned with going for max-DPS when in possession of two no-fail intim timers, but I'm not experienced with this. The DPS should be adequate, and the hate generation is pretty good.

So feats. Should be 19 feats, I think. 2 MNK bonus, 10 FTR bonus, 7 General.

Shield Mastery (FTR)
Improved Shield Mastery (FTR)
Improved Shield Bash (FTR)
3X Dragonmarks (General)
Barb Past Life (General)
Fighter Past Life (General)
Toughness (General)
3X Two-Handed Fighting line (FTR)
Combat Expertise (FTR)

This leaves 1 General, 3 FTR and 2 MNK feats. Proposed feats here are as follows (though there's wiggle room here if there's a problem in taking them all):

Toughness (MNK)
Toughness (MNK)
Toughness (General) or perhaps Lightning Reflexes
Weapon Focus: Slashing (FTR)
Weapon Specialization (FTR)
Greater Weapon Specializtion (FTR)

Proposed Starting Stats (again, this hasn't been perfectly refined, given the ideal gearset):

16 STR
15 DEX (this toon has evasion, remember)
16 CON
11 INT (for max Intim, and high Balance)
13 WIS (required for monk dilly)
08 CHA

Stats and Feats haven't been thoroughly planned, but this looks pretty good to me. The build should be able to achieve a pretty good AC if it wants, though it won't be stellar. The achievable AC should suffice in stuff like HoX, VoD and at least Hard ToD. In eLoB, the build relies on healing amplification, dual intimidate timers, hate generation and shield bashing.

So, watcha think?

[grodon9999]

So, watcha think?

Go for the TWFing line and not the THFing line.

I know you fromt he ranger forums and you're as much of an AC-***** as I am, you will only EVER need a shield for ELOB. Every other raid will go faster with you TWFing the boss for more DPS.

With dual intim timers the additional glancing blows won't matter.

[Faent]

Go for the TWFing line and not the THFing line.

I know you fromt he ranger forums and you're as much of an AC-***** as I am, you will only EVER need a shield for ELOB. Every other raid will go faster with you TWFing the boss for more DPS.

With dual intim timers the additional glancing blows won't matter.

Hmm. That's an interesting point. However, the additional glancing blows will do at least one thing for me. The eFang has some nice base damage, and the build has some nice threat generation. So in LoB, the need to rely upon the dual timers will be reduced, and the second timer will be relegated to emergency use only. That was the thought, I think.

Also, I'm not elite enough to care about shaving a minute or two off a run by doing more damage myself. If I was, I wouldn't have tanked a bazillion ToDs and VoDs on my ranger. The build also benefits from Improved Shield Bash, which will make up some (but of course not all) of the DPS going TWF would provide.

Worse, if I took the TWF line, I'd need to craft more **** or get another eFang and perhaps consider a significant feat revision. Relying on the eFang lets me drop IC: Slashing. If I went Khopesh for TWF, then I'd need Khopesh Proficiency AND IC: Slashing. I'm not sure I want to have to fit those feats. If I Cannith Crafted something, I'd have to fit Khopesh or Bastard Sword Proficiency and IC: Slashing again. And then I'd have to consider OTWF as well. I'm not sure I want the TWF line. Thoughts on these concerns?

[Faent]

I'm particularly interested in how folks think this compares to an 18/2 helf FTR/MONK with pally dilly. The pally dilly would net +5 to saves, but at the cost of a CHA boost which would screw up this builds ability to bump DEX. So the actual net gain would be less than 5 but still something where it matters (Reflex). (I can't do this math now. Sorry.) But this build's healing amp dominates the pally dilly's healing amp, and I think that's more important than an additional +2 or +3 to saves, which should already be pretty high on the Fort/Ref side, especially if Lightning Reflexes is taken.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Few game mechanics issues ...

Firstly, healing amp stacks multiplicatively and not additively like you've done. So, it becomes:
1.10*1.10*1.20*1.20*1.10*1.20*1.30= 299%

However, the finger necklace is an insight bonus and stacks strangely so if you equip it first it becomes:
1.10*1.10*1.20*1.20*1.10*1.20*1.30+.1*1.10*1.10*1. 20*1.30=318%

In contrast, if you were human instead for additionaly +50% fortification and +2 enhancement on eFang it becomes:
1.10*1.10*1.3*1.10*1.20*1.30+.1*1.10*1.10*1.20*1.3 0=288%

It seems overtime that having over 100% fortification will be more and more important so it might be worthwhile going human which lets you dump wisdom as well (for more charisma perhaps).

Secondly, like values on intimidate won't stack so the most that you can get is:
10%
15%
20%
30% (upgraded circle of hatred from abbot raid)

I believe that they stack additively but not sure. You don't get 20% incite unless you a pure sentinel dragonmarked character (have to be human).

Good luck with it

[Faent]

Few game mechanics issues ... Firstly, healing amp stacks multiplicatively and not additively like you've done. So, it becomes: 1.10*1.10*1.20*1.20*1.10*1.20*1.30= 299%

You're confused if you think I added anything to get my numbers. Also, I reported it as 300%. You're telling me I'm off because it's really 299%? Heard of rounding? Whatever, I'm drunk, and tomorrow I'll try to figure out if some sense can be made out of what seems to be a bunch of nonsense.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You're confused if you think I added anything to get my numbers. Also, I reported it as 300%. You're telling me I'm off because it's really 299%? Heard of rounding? Whatever, I'm drunk, and tomorrow I'll try to figure out if some sense can be made out of what seems to be a bunch of nonsense.

Uhh, off by 18% when you consider the peculiar mechanic of finger necklace assuming I got the formula right (just doing it from memory).

I just split up what I was doing to make it understandable, sorry for trying to help.

Don't drink and post, kids.

[maddmatt70]

I'm particularly interested in how folks think this compares to an 18/2 helf FTR/MONK with pally dilly. The pally dilly would net +5 to saves, but at the cost of a CHA boost which would screw up this builds ability to bump DEX. So the actual net gain would be less than 5 but still something where it matters (Reflex). (I can't do this math now. Sorry.) But this build's healing amp dominates the pally dilly's healing amp, and I think that's more important than an additional +2 or +3 to saves, which should already be pretty high on the Fort/Ref side, especially if Lightning Reflexes is taken.

I would go with the two handers and not do two weapon fighting melee. Just use an epic sos when you are going offensive. There is more synergy with two handed fighting melee and tanking at the moment then two weapon fighting because healing amp, hit points, and dr are all you need to tank. I would also dump that dex some and up charisma.. Why do you need such high dex?

[grodon9999]

Like ESoS's grow on trees? it would be a complete waste on builds like this.

Yes, EGA would be fine but even cheaper are dual HBoGB or whatever.

[Faent]

However, the finger necklace is an insight bonus and stacks strangely so if you equip it first it becomes: 1.10*1.10*1.20*1.20*1.10*1.20*1.30+.1*1.10*1.10*1. 20*1.30=318%

Ok, I'll try again. I don't understand your formula. What's the addition sign doing in there? I'm counting the Finger Necklace as 10%, although Shade treats it as between 11% and 12%, I think. You seem to be treating it as providing 17% healing amp, which is surely far too high?

While I realized the 10% was a rough approximation, and I was happy with a conservative rough approximation, either you are overestimating it or Shade and the DDO Wiki are vastly underestimating it.

It seems overtime that having over 100% fortification will be more and more important so it might be worthwhile going human which lets you dump wisdom as well (for more charisma perhaps).

The build will not go human to boost the eFang more. The point of the build is to acquire the extra healing amp. And it has dual intimidate timers. I very much doubt that I will need the superFang to hold aggro. To acquire the same healing amp, I'd need a 7 MNK splash, and that would lock me out of SDIII, nerf my HP and threat gen.

Secondly, like values on intimidate won't stack so the most that you can get is:
10%
15%
20%
30% (upgraded circle of hatred from abbot raid)

I believe that they stack additively but not sure. You don't get 20% incite unless you a pure sentinel dragonmarked character (have to be human).

I think I see what you're saying. You meant that you don't get 20% incite *on the eFang* unless you're pure human. That's correct, and I should have noticed that the Wiki pic was taken by a fully dragonmarked human. That led to me wondering if some of these bonuses were typed differently than others, and you're saying that they're all the same.

So what I'll get is 75%, 10%, 15%, 20% and 30%. Got it.

I just split up what I was doing to make it understandable, sorry for trying to help.

Thanks for trying to help. It wasn't easy to understand your post, and I was beyond capable of doing it when tipsy. Some of it isn't that clearly worded. And I got grumpy when you told me I was adding my healing amp numbers (which couldn't possibly add to the 300% I reported). No hard feelings though. =)

[maddmatt70]

I can not 100% say for sure that like sources of hate do not stack, but I am about 99% sure hence brawn trinket 10% does not stack with the epic chimera's fang 10% for e.g.. I would look to get some additional sources of hate at some point in the future with the way dps is increasing. Upgraded circle of hatred is 30% hate and fleshmaker brigandine with the obsession proc is 100% are the two additional sources in game right now.

[Faent]

I've crunched some numbers on this, and the results, with the following assumed stat items (+9 STR/CON and +6 DEX/CHA) are:

Intimidate: 79 (Greensteel, Epic Brawn's Spirits, Claw Gloves, GH and Ship Buff only)
HP: 896 stanced (Greensteel, Toughness, Favor, SFL, and Yugo pots only)
Balance: 32
Saves: FORT 41, REF 35, Will 30 (eFang, GH, Ship Buffs, Haste, Alchemical, Luck and Resistance +5 only)
Healing Amp: At least 300% (see above posts)
AC: not crunched, but should be good when wanted

Both Intimidate and Balance will hit max ranks, thanks to the +3 tome and starting INT of 11.

I used the following feat list:

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash
3x Dragonmarks
3x THF line
Barbarian Past Life
Fighter Past Life
Toughness x3
Weapon Focus: Slashing
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization

And a starting stat distribution (with all level ups into STR) of:

STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 13
CHA: 08

Assuming the above listed stat items (again: +9 STR/CON and +6 DEX/CHA), the final stat distribution looks like:

STR: 37 (+13)
DEX: 24 (+7)
CON: 28 (+9)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 16 (+3)
CHA: 17 (+3)

HP strikes me as a bit light. REF saves strikes me as a bit low, but not bad. Thoughts on these numbers?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Googlefu for you. I can't be bothered trying to figure out if my initial formula was correct or not.

[Blue_wizards]

Ok, I'll try again. I don't understand your formula. What's the addition sign doing in there? I'm counting the Finger Necklace as 10%, although Shade treats it as between 11% and 12%, I think. You seem to be treating it as providing 17% healing amp, which is surely far too high?

While I realized the 10% was a rough approximation, and I was happy with a conservative rough approximation, either you are overestimating it or Shade and the DDO Wiki are vastly underestimating it.

It would be wrong to say that using an item with X healing amp will increase your total healing amp by X. It doesn't work like that. If your current total healing amp is Y and you add an item (that stacks) with X healing amp then your new total healing amp will be Y times X.

For example, let say your only source of heal amp was the epic gloves of the claw. then your heal amp would be 1(base) X 1.3(epic gloves of the claw) and that would yield 130% heal amp. If you add to this a tod ring with 20% heal amp then your new total heal amp will be 1.3 X 1.2=156%. The tod ring has 20% healing amp but effectively it increased your total healing amp by 26%.

Regarding hate, yes it is comulative.

On a different matter
I would highly recommend crunching the numbers for your ac rather then assuming you will have a high ac when you want to. Also decide what ac you are aiming for, ac tanking amrath quests? ac tanking normal/hard/elite tod? are you going for 70, 80 or 90? Further more if you are planning on such high heal amp and hp, ac is not really needed.

What is your main goal? Tanking epic LoB? AC would be a waste in that case. Putting points into int and wasting a feat on expertise would gimp your efforts for an ideal tank.

Regarding threat. There is no such thing as too much threat. Epic LoB punishes you greatly for swinging a sword at him full time. Having immense hate generation enables you to shield bash most or all of the time.

Not sure if you understand how Half elf social skills work. I apologies if I am repeating something you already know. Double intims does not mean auto win, it is however very useful. THE TIMER ON THE HALF ELF INTIM IS 60 SECONDS as appose to the regular intim timer of 15 seconds. It gives you more flexibility using your main intim and can save a lot of resources when you are in a tight spot and must have agro withwhile your main intim is still on timer.

I've posted my tank build, The Catalyst. You might want to take a look at it (it is pure fighter with monk dilettante so not far off from your 18/2 build).
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4295136

I've also posted a tank guide for epic lob where I've explained in detail how, imo, half elf intim can be put into great effect. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=359765

Best of luck with your final life, hope you enjoy the finished product :-)

[Faent]

It would be wrong to say that using an item with X healing amp will increase your total healing amp by X. It doesn't work like that. If your current total healing amp is Y and you add an item (that stacks) with X healing amp then your new total healing amp will be Y times X.

Yes, yes... I know how healing amp works. I've been calculating it in the same way you have all along. Wax objected to those calculations on the basis that they ever so slightly undercount the benefit of the Fleshmaker property.

On a different matter I would highly recommend crunching the numbers for your ac rather then assuming you will have a high ac when you want to. Also decide what ac you are aiming for, ac tanking amrath quests? ac tanking normal/hard/elite tod? are you going for 70, 80 or 90? Further more if you are planning on such high heal amp and hp, ac is not really needed.

I like having high AC if possible. If I can somehow fit that option into a build, I will. As a fast AC calculation, this build should hit an unbuffed AC of 85 (and will lose Evasion by doing so).

10 Base
17 Armor
11 Shield
09 Natural Armor
05 Protection
07 Dexterity (using only a +6 item, no Exceptionals)
12 Dodge
02 Stalwart Set Bonus
04 Insight
05 Combat Expertise
03 Stalwart Defender Line
-----------------------------
85 Unbuffed AC

Thus typical raiding AC will stand at 89-90 (Inspire Heroics and Haste). Thus in ordinary raid content, the build will let healers totally and completely pike. This makes healers happy. Obviously, I'll be relying on HP and Healing Amp for tougher LoB runs.

What is your main goal? Tanking epic LoB? AC would be a waste in that case. Putting points into int and wasting a feat on expertise would gimp your efforts for an ideal tank.

The points into INT are there for other reasons as well. I can get all the Intimidate, Balance and Jump I need if I start my INT at 11. That's max ranks in Intimidate and Balance, as well as more than enough ranks in Jump. You have to start INT at 11 to do that. So Combat Expertise is icing on the cake.

I've posted my tank build, The Catalyst. You might want to take a look at it (it is pure fighter with monk dilettante so not far off from your 18/2 build).
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4295136

Thanks for that. That contains some interesting ideas I hadn't considered. You've really gone for maxxing your Shield Bashing damage. I like that idea a lot.

The comment thread on that post was also helpful. I haven't fully considered the armor options, and that's worthwhile. If I want to preserve Evasion, I need to stay in light armor or less. DT seemed like a pretty good choice, but I'd prefer some other armors to it, honestly. And I like your idea of picking up both Fleshmaker and Obsession on one piece of armor, thus freeing the Necklace slot. This poses some hard questions, requiring hard decisions.

Assuming I keep it at 18/2, I could switch my Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization from being eFang focused to being Shield focused. Then I'd use the Parasitic Breastplate for Obsession (at the cost of Disintegration Guard and Fleshmaker on the armor). Fleshmaker could be reslotted on the Finger Necklace, but that'd come at the cost of the ToD Set.

I suppose what I wore would depend on which raid I was tanking. eChrono? Go evasion, and either drop healing amp a wee bit or drop the ToD set. eLoB? Drop Evasion and go with the ToD set and the Fleshshaper's Brigadine. Or go for more Heal Amp with DT and Finger Necklace, dropping the ToD set and losing some incite. Of course, for some raids, just go into AC mode.

Anyways, thanks (and I hate you) for making me think hard about this. =)

[Faent]

Bumping this thread for further (hopeful) comments on the build.