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  1. #21
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Casters will take longer to overcome foes without weighted dice, is it impossible? NO, will it change ppls view on solo-ing certain quests knowing it might take 10-20% longer to complete a quest SURELY WILL!

    As for getting into raid groups - what are you smoking??
    Arcanes and Divines heal/buff(Excellent), instakill/crowd control(Excellent) and DPS(Moderate).
    Non casters DPS(Excellent), Heal/buff(Moderate/Weak), crowd control/instakill(Weak/Moderate)
    In a BALANCED game NEITHER role does well without the other.
    In our CURRENT unbalanced game one side seems to have most of the ACES...

    Im not saying that there isn't other issues AS WELL but that this one DOES unbalance things and everytime you remove something causing unbalance the game improves.
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  2. #22
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    Casters will take longer to overcome foes without weighted dice, is it impossible? NO, will it change ppls view on solo-ing certain quests knowing it might take 10-20% longer to complete a quest SURELY WILL!
    Change people's view? What kind of goal is that? It won't stop casters from soloing, and won't make it more difficult. If it takes a little bit longer, it will still take them much less time than it would for a non-caster. Your proposed change doesn't accomplish anything at all here except adding 1-10 minutes to solo caster runs if the stuff in the quest is immune to insta-kill, and add more time to raid completions for any group that takes more than one caster along.

    You ignored my examples where I showed that spells dealing 50% less damage than they could deal don't significantly impact the ability of casters to solo content, which means that removing weighted dice wouldn't either, since it accounts for less than a 50% drop.
    As for getting into raid groups - what are you smoking??
    I'd ask you the same, but it doesn't really matter what's resulted in killing your brain cells.

    Were you around when no raid group let in more than 2 casters, and most took only 1, and that 1 caster was relegated to buffing and sometimes light CC? Even now, when casters can equal the DPS of a strong melee, or surpass it in some cases, most raid groups don't take more than 2, sometimes 3 casters. Nerfing caster DPS will only significantly impact this facet of the game.

    Raids aren't really wear casters need to get balanced better against melees. It's in 6-man quests, and this proposal doesn't do anything to improve matters for anyone.

    Giving melees weighted dice would help them a little bit in raids, even less in 6-man quests, and almost not at all when soloing, but would serve as a way to further widen the gap between well-geared melee and under-geared melee, and even then, not by very much.

    Look at the Epic Sword of Shadows. The only dice being rolled their are 5d6. Right now, that's a range of 5-30, with an average of 17.5. Loading the dice gives you 5d3+15, which is a range of 18-30, with an average of 25. On cirts, the range goes from 15-90, to 54-90, and the average goes from 52.5 to 75. Those are big gains, but not enough to see any noticeable difference in how melees perform in regards to soloing, challenges, or their need for healing and crowd control.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  3. #23
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Were you around when no raid group let in more than 2 casters, and most took only 1, and that 1 caster was relegated to buffing and sometimes light CC? Even now, when casters can equal the DPS of a strong melee, or surpass it in some cases, most raid groups don't take more than 2, sometimes 3 casters. Nerfing caster DPS will only significantly impact this facet of the game.
    Actually I was playing prior to there even being a shroud ;P
    Im not just talking Arcanes here, how many raids you ran in had 1 healer and no arcane.. count ALL the casters... its USUALLY 2 Divines and 2 Arcane occasionally with 3 arcane if you include a bard, and 7-8 Melee/physical damage toons.. surprise surprise that's almost exactly the same number of CLASSES in those fields....

    12 barbarian/fighters or rogues CAN do a shroud, but will go thru heavy resources, 12 CASTERS however can make it thru with EASE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Giving melees weighted dice would help them a little bit in raids, even less in 6-man quests, and almost not at all when soloing, but would serve as a way to further widen the gap between well-geared melee and under-geared melee, and even then, not by very much.

    Look at the Epic Sword of Shadows. The only dice being rolled their are 5d6. Right now, that's a range of 5-30, with an average of 17.5. Loading the dice gives you 5d3+15, which is a range of 18-30, with an average of 25. On cirts, the range goes from 15-90, to 54-90, and the average goes from 52.5 to 75. Those are big gains, but not enough to see any noticeable difference in how melees perform in regards to soloing, challenges, or their need for healing and crowd control.
    Holyburst shortsword of GLOB = 6-36 damage (avg 21 per hit) non-weighted dice
    Weighted dice = 19-36 damage (avg 27 per hit) for a 29% gain
    With +75damage from STR and other riders its still around a 5% boost in average DPS, something that any toon would love to have.

    I keep going back to the same argument: if the MELEE had weighted dice and casters DIDNT.. would it THEN be acceptable to call it out as an unfair system?

    Just because it doesn't instantly correct all discrepancies in DDO doesn't mean its fair and balanced to keep it this way...
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 02-02-2012 at 05:39 AM.
    -Stealth RULEZ- A compilation -Favor 101- "How-to" unlock the game -Boycott the changes- combat changes stink
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  4. #24
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    Actually I was playing prior to there even being a shroud ;P
    Im not just talking Arcanes here, how many raids you ran in had 1 healer and no arcane.. count ALL the casters... its USUALLY 2 Divines and 2 Arcane occasionally with 3 arcane if you include a bard, and 7-8 Melee/physical damage toons.. surprise surprise that's almost exactly the same number of CLASSES in those fields....
    The divines in the runs are usually there as very little more than walking Cure wands. They are hardly exercising their power in raids with that set-up, usually.
    Bards don't count, since they are typically not contributing any spell-based DPS at all.

    This brings up an interesting point, though: removing loaded dice would significantly weaken cure spells, while not affecting Heal and Mass Heal, which is the opposite of what needs to happen there.

    A weighted fireball at level 10 does 10d3+30 x 2.5 damage (ignoring enhancements and items for the moment), or 100-150 damage, average 125. Without weighted dice it would be 25-150 damage, average of 87.5. The problem with this is that it simply becomes not worth casting if the spell only does 25 damage, and it just gets worse for higher level spells.

    Oh, and since I'm actually looking at the stuff, the big problem spells (ie. the ones that are pushing casters into the "too much DPS" category) are rolling only a few dice, and those don't appear to be loaded dice anyway. So all you do is making nuking incredibly inefficient, using Cure spells almost worthless, and leave everything else in place.
    12 barbarian/fighters or rogues CAN do a shroud, but will go thru heavy resources, 12 CASTERS however can make it thru with EASE!!!
    And that has nothing at all to do with the dice they are rolling.


    With +80damage from STR and other riders its still around a 5% boost in average DPS, something that any toon would love to have.
    Of course, but DPS isn't the problem.

    Just because it doesn't instantly correct any and all discrepancies in DDO doesn't mean its fair and balanced to keep it this way...
    It doesn't correct ANY!!
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  5. #25
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    The divines in the runs are usually there as very little more than walking Cure wands. They are hardly exercising their power in raids with that set-up, usually. That mindset is why they built the dot spells btw

    Bards don't count, since they are typically not contributing any spell-based DPS at all.
    I was just lumping them in the arcane caster section where they belong, yet another class that needs a workover due to its role being stripped by its peers

    This brings up an interesting point, though: removing loaded dice would significantly weaken cure spells, while not affecting Heal and Mass Heal, which is the opposite of what needs to happen there.

    Totally agree with Heal needing a tweak but that is off-topic

    A weighted fireball at level 10 does 10d3+30 x 2.5 damage (ignoring enhancements and items for the moment), or 100-150 damage, average 125. Without weighted dice it would be 25-150 damage, average of 87.5. The problem with this is that it simply becomes not worth casting if the spell only does 25 damage, and it just gets worse for higher level spells.

    Take the good with the bad tho at least you dont need to make a to-hit roll 1st.. I mean its worked like that in every pen and paper game that LED to DDO

    Oh, and since I'm actually looking at the stuff, the big problem spells (ie. the ones that are pushing casters into the "too much DPS" category) are rolling only a few dice, and those don't appear to be loaded dice anyway. So all you do is making nuking incredibly inefficient, using Cure spells almost worthless, and leave everything else in place.

    You need to separate the weighted dice issue from the OP spell(s) issue
    Raising the non caster damage and lowering the caster guaranteed carnage damage DOES fix a balance issue.. one thats been staring everyone in the face but no-one talks about.. why are SPELL damage dice better than WEAPON!

    Survivability and area crowd control for melee is also off topic, stuff like but why do trip/sunder attacks have a cooldown?? i agree they need help in that area but....

    /ONTOPIC "the dice dont lie (unless its for spell damage!)"
    -Stealth RULEZ- A compilation -Favor 101- "How-to" unlock the game -Boycott the changes- combat changes stink
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  6. #26
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Clearly you aren't interested in using logic, so I'll cease trying to apply it here.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  7. #27
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Clearly you aren't interested in using logic, so I'll cease trying to apply it here.
    So .. LOGICALLY.. explain why its fair and balanced for spell damage to use weighted dice??? or why melee dice shouldnt have the same advantage?

    I actually agree with a LOT of your points Sephiroth, its just that i think other balancing issues are..well.. OTHER balancing issues.

    I DO think that removing the weighted dice would change peoples playstyle and lead to a balancing of the need for classes in a party/raid scenario

    Solo-ing is another ballgame, and the melee classes need some form of AOE/CC/RANGE to be able to post the achievement a caster can do.

    But why not help balance the game from a more stable platform?
    -Stealth RULEZ- A compilation -Favor 101- "How-to" unlock the game -Boycott the changes- combat changes stink
    You say you want your $$ back, i d g a f about the $$. I want my GAME back..

  8. #28
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    So .. LOGICALLY.. explain why its fair and balanced for spell damage to use weighted dice??? or why melee dice shouldnt have the same advantage?
    Because loaded dice serve a purpose. They make nuking worthwhile, because the HP on monsters is too high to make it worth spending the mana on a spell that can roll too pitifully. Melees don't need loaded dice, because they aren't using resources to swing a weapon--there's no choice to be made there, nothing lost, no cost.

    You are advocating balancing dice for the sake of balancing dice, not because it will actually improve anything, or fix anything in the game. Removing them doesn't balance the game better, or enhance the play of casters. Adding them to melees also doesn't improve anything.

    Removing weighted dice creates a less stable platform, because it increases randomness. In the case of casters, that's not all that desirable for spells rolling lots of dice. For one thing, it makes spells that use dice besides d6s considerably worse, as they become much more likely to do equal or less damage than a cheaper spell. For melees, they swing so many times that they don't need their dice to be weighted, because they are hitting closer to the average anyway.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  9. #29
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    Weighted dice were introduced to boost some spells in comparison to ohers, mostly direct damage vs damage overtime spells.

    If the problem here is the weighted dice per se, then the devs could remove all weighted dice from the game and instead make direct spells deal 1d10 per caster level instead of 1d6, this way making things seem 'less unfair'. But what's the point..
    Last edited by lppmor; 02-02-2012 at 08:36 AM.

  10. #30
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Because loaded dice serve a purpose. They make nuking worthwhile, because the HP on monsters is too high to make it worth spending the mana on a spell that can roll too pitifully. Melees don't need loaded dice, because they aren't using resources to swing a weapon--there's no choice to be made there, nothing lost, no cost.
    WHAT!?! a dagger and a greatsword can both roll 1 for damage but 2 similar spells have minimums of 3 and 7 and your reasoning is... it will no longer be WORTH it to cast the greatsword spell, even tho it has the most potential damage!?! PPL still use niacs cold ray @ lvl 1 and it has a potential of 0 damage... thats just IDIOCY

    You are advocating balancing dice for the sake of balancing dice, not because it will actually improve anything, or fix anything in the game. Removing them doesn't balance the game better, or enhance the play of casters. Adding them to melees also doesn't improve anything.
    im advocating a fair and balanced approach for damage rolls adding weighted to melee improved average dps, removing them from casters lowers average DPS that THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE! Yes it doesnt fix the caster quickened full heal button but it certainly makes (not instakill) spells take longer to take down a foe which BALANCES the innate survivability of the casters

    Removing weighted dice creates a less stable platform, because it increases randomness. In the case of casters, that's not all that desirable for spells rolling lots of dice. For one thing, it makes spells that use dice besides d6s considerably worse, as they become much more likely to do equal or less damage than a cheaper spell. For melees, they swing so many times that they don't need their dice to be weighted, because they are hitting closer to the average anyway.
    totally illogical - the potential damage is the same.
    Yes its annoying to roll a 1 for a damage roll, but its not like casters dont (even in your own opinion) throw a lot more dice into the equation raising the chance of a true average roll.

    Melee dont have multiplicative effects on their damage rolls, their damage is mainly static bonuses from feats/str mod/etc. So a casters spells are "swingy" (and traditionally this was no problem) doing possibly a small or really great damage tick.

    Melee are affected less by the dice rolls... whats the issue there? a melee cannot pull the 2000+damage from a single attack like a caster could, and (thanx to stupid vorpal rulings) nor does a melee have any chance of instakilling a foe >1000hp.

    One style is more risk more reward, and the other is less risk less reward. If anything that is a defining FEATURE of a balanced system, where no side is more favorable than the other.
    -Stealth RULEZ- A compilation -Favor 101- "How-to" unlock the game -Boycott the changes- combat changes stink
    You say you want your $$ back, i d g a f about the $$. I want my GAME back..

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