Is it time? (weighted dice)

[Stillwaters]

Let's say that a caster fires off a spell that does 10d10 damage. Using this post for reference as to how spell damage is weighted, each die roll should be d5+5, which makes the actual outcome 10d5+50, an average of 75 damage.

With a lot of people complaining of Arcanes being OP how about doing a FAIR adjustment and simply remove the WEIGHTED DICE?
Or perhaps ADDING weighted dice to melee attacks/SA damage/etc???

Using the 10d10 spell above as an example you see an immediate change in the avg damage from 75 to 55 (-20damage) without changing/nerfing the spell in the slightest!


It doesn't take a genius to work out the weighted dice system is unfair. (unless both sides and Monsters get it)

And those thinking i'm anti-caster stop for a sec and put the shoe on the other foot... If spell damage was NOT weighted and instead melee/SA/Ranged/etc damage WAS, would it be fair THEN for me to say that WEIGHTED DICE are UNFAIR and UNBALANCED?!?

[Kmnh]

Many melee effects use weitghted dice already.

The epic charged gauntlets proc is 20d3+60

The epic alchemical weapons proc is 15d3+45

and so on.


It's not caster DPS that causes gameplay issues, it's the defensive abilities.

[Stillwaters]

Many melee effects use weighted dice already.

Agreed but ALL spell damage is worked this way, if ALL ranged/melee/SA damage worked this way your AVG Base weapon DPS increases by 20 to 30% - bringing melee back to forefront of sustainable dps!

The epic charged gauntlets proc is 20d3+60

The epic alchemical weapons proc is 15d3+45

and so on.


It's not caster DPS that causes gameplay issues, it's the defensive abilities.

Rare % and Vorpal procs aside....
I believe its not just the defensive ability but the ability to be strong(est) on defensive AND offense.

This is NOT about taking that away from the casters its more about balancing them vs physical attack classes.

[Kmnh]

Melee classes are still ahead in sustained DPS. A caster will usually cap his DPS out at 400, while a barbarian, kensei or rogue breaks 500 easily and 600 with some work.

In DDO, DPS doesn't dictate wweather you can complete a quest or not, it helps the encounters go faster. All-caster epic chronoscope is the norm on Cannith right now, and I can assure you that it's nowhere as quick as a good melee run.

[Stillwaters]

Fact: Taking out monsters reduces incoming damage

Fact: better DPS means more durability

Fact: Weighted dice in any random system is UNFAIR unless it applies to all!

Whether the weighted dice system is removed entirely or applied to all damage (monsters included), having a system where one side is treated unfairly is poor sportsmanship.

a) Weighted dice system removed:
spell attacks lose ground in dps and casters need to last longer in a fight


b) Weighted dice distributed across the board
physical attacks gain ground in dps and players dont need to last as long before a mob is taken out

[Kmnh]

Niac's biting cold, Eladar's electric surge, ice storm and other "damage over time" spells don't use weighted dice. It is only used on single shot spells, like lightning bolt or fireball. Your proposed changes wouldn't do anything to solve the issues.

[Stillwaters]

Niac's biting cold, Eladar's electric surge, ice storm and other "damage over time" spells don't use weighted dice. It is only used on single shot spells, like lightning bolt or fireball. Your proposed changes wouldn't do anything to solve the issues.

the issue I am making here is NOT that casters are OP.. neither is it that melee/ranged is underpowered..

It is that weighted dice are UNFAIR, and that while not SOLVING the issues ppl are raising here, it WOULD be a solid step toward that.

Removing weighted dice completely is my favorite choice: from cure wounds and Heal to fireball and polar ray and all in between.. And as a bonus its not a direct nerf to the output of the spell, only a nerf to its AVERAGE

I think the classes are getting nearer to balance now and it is NOT necessary to continue using unbalanced dice!

[Postumus]

the issue I am making here is NOT that casters are OP.. neither is it that melee/ranged is underpowered..

It is that weighted dice are UNFAIR, and that while not SOLVING the issues ppl are raising here, it WOULD be a solid step toward that.

Removing weighted dice completely is my favorite choice: from cure wounds and Heal to fireball and polar ray and all in between..

You realize that by removing weighted rolls from cure potions and scrolls you're actually hurting melees don't you?

[Kmnh]

But they are not used... All the good spells, the ones that casters actually use in raids and epics, use basic dice, not the weighted ones.

[Stillwaters]

You realize that by removing weighted rolls from cure potions and scrolls you're actually hurting melees don't you?

Hurting all equally and fairly in that regard.. meaning melee need more pot/scrolls true.. but..
Casters likewise would devote more sp/pots/scrolls to healing AND have dps reduced.

Though in my original statement i said an EQUALLY FAIR (tho not my preferred) system would be for ALL dice to be weighted SA/Ranged/Melee attacks for eg. leading to less time in combat as mobs would go down faster and thus deal less damage!

I think it would balance out in favor of melee in EITHER case by a fraction.

[Stillwaters]

If spell damage was NOT weighted and instead melee/SA/Ranged/etc damage WAS, would it be fair THEN for me to say that WEIGHTED DICE are UNFAIR and UNBALANCED?!?

My proposal of BALANCING this issue may not be along the mainstream thinking but i think it is the ROOT of many of the problems i see being discussed on the forums...

All it takes is a good look at the achievements forum to see the DISPARITY in the class race, ESPECIALLY when it comes to solo/epic play. IMHO either solution i propose would push the melee further up into balance...

[bigolbear]

meh - tell it to the 3 second round and mele attack speeds compared to pen and paper.

to be honest tho id sign a removal of weighted dice entirely - on the grounds im a purist. If it wont balance in a computer game then fix it with enhancements, and modifying mob hp. (frankly id be fine if it just didnt tell me)

curently (compared to pen and paper) your looking at spells doing about 25% more from weighting, about 50% more from potency items and 0 to 50% more from enhancements. That tailies up quite well vs maxed hitpoints for each hit die.... but.....

then consider a low lvl mele will make 4 attacks in that time period - a high lvl will make about 6 but with a rising rather than lowering chance to hit. (and dont forget in forum land we all hit on a 2) thats compared to 1 and 4 in pen and paper with a decreasing chance to hit.

its all horses for courses tho, but if i had a wish for nuking spells... it would be that maximise and empower were OPTIONAL. ie something that you didnt need to be a half decent nuker and something that you switched on to lay waste rather than left on by default.

All this being said, i dont think its nuking spells that have the meles woried, and it seems to me that theres a few warriors out there that need to man up and get stuck in to improving them selves. As ive said in other threads -I see many a well palyed mele tearing things up today just like i used to see well played casters tearing things up when the common knowlede said they were nothing but buff bots.

[sephiroth1084]

No.

Melees have a lot less variable damage dice than casters do, so they are effected less by the dice, but more importantly, weighted dice is not where the problems are coming from. Cutting spell damage isn't going to improve things in a meaningful way.

[Stillwaters]

No.

Melees have a lot less variable damage dice than casters do, so they are effected less by the dice, but more importantly, weighted dice is not where the problems are coming from. Cutting spell damage isn't going to improve things in a meaningful way.

Melee are unbalanced less by weighted dice, I agree!! firstly this applies to range too Most adventurers are aiming for somewhere between 1.5 - 2.5 attacks per second that may not be the 20d? per second of damage dice of nukebots but its still a fair chunk of unweighted dice.

Getting it balanced should be important even tho its less frequent...for eg if 5% of the time my CAR wouldn't travel faster than walking speed I would take it to get fixed, just cause it is less for physical doesn't make it less important!

As for cutting spell damage... on AVERAGES it seems that way but REALISTICALLY if you drop the weighted dice the spell actually works as intended (and originally written) if its ok for a raging barb to roll min damage on a crit why not for a spell??

Improving things in a meaningful way: if this small step slows/stops the countless threads on OP casters, or even better makes the game more challenging to SOLO for those casters, encouraging grouping I would consider that MAJOR positive change

[sephiroth1084]

Melee are unbalanced less by weighted dice, I agree!! firstly this applies to range too Most adventurers are aiming for somewhere between 1.5 - 2.5 attacks per second that may not be the 20d? per second of damage dice of nukebots but its still a fair chunk of unweighted dice.

Getting it balanced should be important even tho its less frequent...for eg if 5% of the time my CAR wouldn't travel faster than walking speed I would take it to get fixed, just cause it is less for physical doesn't make it less important!

As for cutting spell damage... on AVERAGES it seems that way but REALISTICALLY if you drop the weighted dice the spell actually works as intended (and originally written) if its ok for a raging barb to roll min damage on a crit why not for a spell??

Improving things in a meaningful way: if this small step slows/stops the countless threads on OP casters, or even better makes the game more challenging to SOLO for those casters, encouraging grouping I would consider that MAJOR positive change

Yeah, except this change doesn't do any of that.

Variable dice makes up a relatively small portion of melee damage, since most of the damage a melee is dealing is from static bonuses (for example, barbarians typically are swinging with around +80 static damage at endgame), while for most spells the variable damage is all that they have, although that is being multiplied by quite a lot.

In any case, it's irrelevant, because caster damage isn't really what's causing the imbalance. It has much more to do with insta-kills, superior mobility, self-healing, and the ability to kill stuff, whether through damage or other means, without trading blows with the monsters. Even divines with weak Blade Barrier DCs (seeing 1/2 damage almost all the time on tough mobs), are killing things easier and faster than melees are. That's not because they have too much damage, it's because they get to apply that damage to multiple enemies at a time, and can do so while staying outside of melee range the whole time, and if they do get hit, they get to heal themselves quickly and easily.

[Stillwaters]

Yeah, except this change doesn't do any of that.

Variable dice makes up a relatively small portion of melee damage, since most of the damage a melee is dealing is from static bonuses (for example, barbarians typically are swinging with around +80 static damage at endgame), while for most spells the variable damage is all that they have, although that is being multiplied by quite a lot.
This is the point right here the 20-30% skewing of the numbers on the BASE damage of the spell is multiplied several times over with potency items/ feats / and enhancements
In any case, it's irrelevant, because caster damage isn't really what's causing the imbalance. It has much more to do with insta-kills, superior mobility, self-healing, and the ability to kill stuff, whether through damage or other means, without trading blows with the monsters. Even divines with weak Blade Barrier DCs (seeing 1/2 damage almost all the time on tough mobs), are killing things easier and faster than melees are. That's not because they have too much damage, it's because they get to apply that damage to multiple enemies at a time, and can do so while staying outside of melee range the whole time, and if they do get hit, they get to heal themselves quickly and easily.
And if each spell on AVERAGE did 20-30% less based on non weighted dice they would take longer and use more resources to do the same thing, possibly to the point of making soloing too expensive as it is with MANY physical damage classes

Apart from insta-kills the only way to kill mobs is: with spell dice damage! WHICH IS WEIGHTED UNFAIRLY!

Removing the weighted dice would slow down casters and encourage less solo play (even if it is just to speed up a mission) and is a FAIR balance...
When you roll a d20 in D&D you don't roll 1d10+10 (unless its a spell in DDO which is kind of the point i'm making)

Going the other way is also entirely possible with things like smites/backstabs etc using weighted dice along with all the burst(crit dice) it would lift the physical damage up and make THOSE classes more durable and less resource hungry to keep going!

[Quarterling]

I just realized... sneak attack's damage is based off of weighted dice, and I would absolutely hate to give that up.

Heh, kind of ironic actually - now I'm feeling exactly how the arcanes feel.

Either way, I'm neither for or against it. If it was to be implemented, make it an all or nothing deal for every single dice roll in the game, players and mobs.

[sephiroth1084]

Apart from insta-kills the only way to kill mobs is: with spell dice damage! WHICH IS WEIGHTED UNFAIRLY!

Removing the weighted dice would slow down casters and encourage less solo play (even if it is just to speed up a mission) and is a FAIR balance...
When you roll a d20 in D&D you don't roll 1d10+10 (unless its a spell in DDO which is kind of the point i'm making)

Going the other way is also entirely possible with things like smites/backstabs etc using weighted dice along with all the burst(crit dice) it would lift the physical damage up and make THOSE classes more durable and less resource hungry to keep going!

You really don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying.

Wis-dumped clerics will likely only ever see 1/2 damage on Blade Barrier in some content due to their DC being low, yet are still able to Blade Barrier kit to success. Half damage on something like BB accounts for a much bigger loss than weighting the dice for high-DC types would.

Casters aren't tethered to how much damage they deal. On my wizard I occasionally solo encounters using Web/Disco Ball/Mass Hold + Ice Storm (and Necrotic Blast) even when monsters are immune/highly resistant to cold damage, which, again, is a much bigger loss for me than if I were using unweighted IC vs. non-resistant monsters. Casters aren't soloing because their spells do a ton of damage. They are soloing because their spells can kill stuff while the stuff can't kill them. Adjusting their damage up or down isn't going to change that. All it will do is further separate super-geared casters from un-geared casters, as the latter group will have fewer SP and fewer ways to get their SP back, or make their spells more efficient. It won't stop casters from soloing, and it won'tmake soloing on a melee any easier.

Melees aren't bad at soloing because they aren't dealing enough damage, but because they
A) Are necessarily in position to be hit back by monsters and cannot heal themselves efficiently.
B) Can't deal with big crowds very well, as they have no AoE crowd control and poor, or no, AoE damage.
C) Don't generally come equipped with the ability to avoid monsters and their attacks very well (Blur, Displacement, Jump, Haste, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Nightshield, Greater Heroism).

Killing monsters faster helps only a little bit when you start getting to content where you aren't one-shotting stuff. Once monsters get to start hitting back, melees are at a severe disadvantage that has nothing to do with DPS. There are casters who make their way through the game without bothering with one or both of Maximize and Empower, which represents a bigger loss than unweighting dice.

Removing dice weighting hurts casters in the early game, where they are already weak, and hurts groups at end game, without doing much at all to impede their ability to solo. You know what I typically use when soloing on my wizard? Wail of the Banshee, Circle of Death, Finger of Death, and Symbol of Death, none of which deal damage as a primary function. When they don't work, I use Ice Storm, and the Necrotic SLAs from Pale Master, which aren't affected by Maximize and Empower. Ice Storm does rather poor damage, but the spell is cheapish, and gets the job done when I care more about mana-efficiency than time.

The big DPS problem with casters right now is that their DoTs (Eladar's, Niac's and DP) are dealing too much damage. Screwing the whole system because of those isn't going to fix any of the larger issues, of which this is not one.

[Stillwaters]

@sephiroth - I really do understand where you are coming from and your points are all valid to a degree, that removing weighted dice doesn't stop the instakill or crowd control of a caster.. You even seem to understand that by removing them you make it harder for those that relied on them all this time.... Please understand i dont WANT to nerf casters to uselessness and removing the weighted dice will not do that!

I also know its a relatively few new spells that account for a LOT of the OP threads that abound atm, but i'm not talking about OTHER broken things just THIS one (and like Quarterling I play a lot of rogues that ALSO benefit from weighted dice). But removing them ALL or making EVERY dice weighted is fair.. The melee come out ahead by a little and/or caster cannons lose ground they SHOULD NEVER HAVE TAKEN.

Making the rule static (either NO weighted or ALL weighted) wouldn't stop certain current exploits but it would make them take longer to achieve and take more resources (or in case of melee -less reliance on resources) which is a solid step in the right direction.

I think if DDO had never introduced the weighted dice there would have been one less unbalancing issue masking certain OP exploits in the game, but it can be fixed simply and the "boat would start to right itself" more unbalanced exploits would come to light, or be shown as the specialties of a class, and could be dealt with in turn from a more stable foundation.

[sephiroth1084]

@sephiroth - You even seem to understand that by removing them you make it harder for those that relied on them all this time....

and take more resources (or in case of melee -less reliance on resources) which is a solid step in the right direction.

These two statements tell me that you don't understand what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that lowering spell damage won't make anything harder for casters except in getting into raid groups.

What I'm saying is that increasing melee damage by a tiny amount won't significantly impact their reliance on others to heal them.

What I'm saying is that this is not the way to restore some balance between casters and non-casters, because it isn't addressing any of the real problems that exist.