Another Update without Ranger Luv?

[Memek]

Artificers show that pewpew is just supposed to be a past time for characters - Artificers are real casters and gain a stronger ranged option than Rangers, just so.
Rangers are real melee and gain a ranged option too, big deal...
AAs gain the strongest burst damage for slightly weaker melee (IPS+MS+Slayer Arrows, and Tempest rather sucks) so that is a viable trade-off. DS should just be removed and exchanged for a tank or heal Ranger PrE.

It's done. Artis are best ranged, and they are real, full-blown casters. Suck it pewpews, start meleeing.

[Vormaerin]

It's pretty clear that the Ranger class was intended to be DDO's Ranged Combat specialist. We all know it didn't quite work out that way, but to say we're misassociating the word is wrong.

The name "Ranger" has nothing to do with the function of "ranged combat." It derives from "ranging" as in traveling, not shooting. The class has been named "ranger" since long before there was any association between the class and archery. As you probably realize, it was lifted from LotR's rangers (none of whom showed any especial interest in archery.

As for DDO specifically, there is nothing to indicate the devs ever expected rangers to be the best archers. They actually deviated from p&p design to make sure even archer focused rangers had melee capability.

[Aesop]

I'd still like to see Ranger get some new spells that augment their combat ability.

Arrow Storm (attack all enemies within 1st range increment... Maybe have arrows do AoE damage or something)
Blade Storm (attack all enemies within reach... I'd just make it a Double Strike chance similar to Zeal)

Foebane (add Bane effect vs Favored Enemies)
Hunter's Eye (1d6 Sneak Attack Damage per 3 caster levels)


Sniper Shot (Sneak Attack and Point Blank at any range)
Exacting Shot (Auto Confirm Crits vs FE)

Aesop

[MeliCat]

Sheesh noinfo - you cut it pretty fine tanking Horry on your ranger - we almost didn't get our Suulu chest cos we almost hadn't managed to kill him fast enough. Usually it's the healers wanting to know how much left on Suulu but it was amusing to hear you call out to know to slow down. And it wasn't particularly weaksauce on Suulu either.

[noinfo]

Sheesh noinfo - you cut it pretty fine tanking Horry on your ranger - we almost didn't get our Suulu chest cos we almost hadn't managed to kill him fast enough. Usually it's the healers wanting to know how much left on Suulu but it was amusing to hear you call out to know to slow down. And it wasn't particularly weaksauce on Suulu either.

Sure he has enough gear to do pretty much anything I want him to but he is also a deep splash build with only 12 levels of ranger and if I had been on Cro (my barb) he would have been dead in half the time and you would have lost the sulu chest though alot more healing intensive and if I was on my SD kill time would have been close or similar and much much less damage would have been taken due to shield masteries etc.

It was fun though since we were racing against time for the server going down

[Brennie]

The name "Ranger" has nothing to do with the function of "ranged combat." It derives from "ranging" as in traveling, not shooting. The class has been named "ranger" since long before there was any association between the class and archery. As you probably realize, it was lifted from LotR's rangers (none of whom showed any especial interest in archery.)

Though the name Ranger comes from LOTR rangers, their implementation seems to closer to Legolas in action, what with the dual wielding and the archery as the focus of their combat lines. The most famous "Ranger" in LOTR Singleweilded a bastard sword (I think?) for a majority of his time, and didn't have any particular magic bond with nature.

As for DDO specifically, there is nothing to indicate the devs ever expected rangers to be the best archers. They actually deviated from p&p design to make sure even archer focused rangers had melee capability.

You mean, except that two of their three PrEs are Ranged focused, their only Capstone affects only Ranged combat, and their class icon is a bow?

Granted, these are circumstantial, but clearly show the Devs intend Rangers to be able to choose a Ranged-Focus build and excel at it. And, frankly, the only reason other classes can meet or exceed Rangers in Archery ability is the Elf/Helf access to the Ranger PrE Arcane Archer. Cause a level 20 AA ranger is cool, but a Full AA with Longbow Kensai III and Fighter weapon specializations/haste boost/power surge etc kinda tips the balance, doncha think?

[Aesop]

I'd like to scratch AA as a ranger PrE and just leave it as an Elf/H.Elf PrE

Then come up with some other PrE for Rangers that doesn't focus on one of their specific Combat Styles. Maybe something like Beastmaster or Highland Stalker or some PrE dedicated specifically to Favored Enemies.

Race PrEs as things different than Class PrEs opens up better options and possible synergies while not punishing a class for taking it.

Aesop

[NaturalHazard]

Though the name , and didn't have any particular magic bond with nature.



[],?

He was a skilled tracker though, it has *him* and legolas that tracked the hobbits after they where kidnapped by the orcs. He has a lot of wilderness survival lore.

[FengXian]

I'd like to scratch AA as a ranger PrE and just leave it as an Elf/H.Elf PrE

Then come up with some other PrE for Rangers that doesn't focus on one of their specific Combat Styles. Maybe something like Beastmaster or Highland Stalker or some PrE dedicated specifically to Favored Enemies.

Race PrEs as things different than Class PrEs opens up better options and possible synergies while not punishing a class for taking it.

Aesop

This would be nice. Since AA is the only racial PrE atm, rangers would be "disadvantaged" by the introduction of other racial PrEs, since they would effectively end up with one less PrE than other classes (2 ranger, 1 ranger/racial, while I assume fighters would have 3 fighter PrEs, and dwarven defender "stacking" with stalwart defender, but I might be wrong).

Anyway, we need a reason to go 20 ranger on an AA, it's a shame to waste that capstone^^ (maybe fixing it to actually increase your attack speed by 25%, too...reload speed is not affected from what I recall and it ends up being a 12-13% instead...)

[Brennie]

I'd like to scratch AA as a ranger PrE and just leave it as an Elf/H.Elf PrE

Then come up with some other PrE for Rangers that doesn't focus on one of their specific Combat Styles. Maybe something like Beastmaster or Highland Stalker or some PrE dedicated specifically to Favored Enemies.

Race PrEs as things different than Class PrEs opens up better options and possible synergies while not punishing a class for taking it.

Aesop

H-elf 20 ranger with full AA and full (Non sucktastic) Deepwood Sniper... *drool*

This shouldn't be any more unbalanced than full AA and Kensai III longbow, or other synergistic combos. This was also something that i had concerns with, when hearing about the proposed Racial PrEs no longer being carbon copies of Class-cased PrEs.

However, given that AA is already 'done', this is probably going to end up being low priority compared to creating PrEs for races that have none. I certainly hope it won't, since elves need as many positive balancing factors as possible, but I'm cynical at this point (Frankly, I have no idea how they plan to knock out so many PrEs at the same time, when they have been barely trickling in over the past few years, but thats another discussion altogether)

(Forgive my typing, I'm recovering from an eye surgery from earlier this week, and it is making my typing skills and self-corrections rather inadequate)

[barecm]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

Step 3:

As stated throughout this post is more spells. The ranger spell suck. No cute way to put it. There are really only a handful of spells that are worth while and pretty much every lvl 20 ranger has the exact same spells in their list as the next. Maybe matching some spells to compliment the ranged or melee paths.

Step 4:

Quiver love. My biggest thought for improvement is making some high lvl and/or epic quivers. I don't think it should be too over powered, but perhaps make a quiver that adds 1d6 elemental damage (different quivers have different ones) and maybe Epic could add like silver or holy or something along with a slot. The only quiver worth having is the Abott Quiver and it is still something a lot of casual players have no chance of getting, let alone the upgraded version. The other quiver from the harbor series is bleh....

Step 5:

Make it more worth tempting to be a lvl 12+ ranger. The pure lvl 20 ranger has become less and less viable with zen archery and elf AA builds along with the ranger splash for tempest. I would like to see something for the higher lvl rangers and reworking the capstone. It currently is not all that awesome that you wont mind giving it up for extra damage you can get multiclassing. Also ties in with better lvl 3/4 spells.

[NaturalHazard]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

.

Quite a few rangers are having trouble with too hit in epics, this might discourage people even more about taking rangers into epics. Whats special about rangers? what makes them different than most other physical damage classes? one thing in DDO is that they have both 2wf and decent range and can specialise in more in one than the other but every ranger has manyshot and any ranger has the twf feats. Take that away and they lose what little lustre that they had.

I like the idea about adding some more useful spells though. But I think some of your ideas will ultimately be a nerf and I don't like nerfs and limmiting options, In not going with the *traditional* D&D way with the rangers paths I think DDO actually did something right.

[Aesop]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

Step 3:

As stated throughout this post is more spells. The ranger spell suck. No cute way to put it. There are really only a handful of spells that are worth while and pretty much every lvl 20 ranger has the exact same spells in their list as the next. Maybe matching some spells to compliment the ranged or melee paths.

Step 4:

Quiver love. My biggest thought for improvement is making some high lvl and/or epic quivers. I don't think it should be too over powered, but perhaps make a quiver that adds 1d6 elemental damage (different quivers have different ones) and maybe Epic could add like silver or holy or something along with a slot. The only quiver worth having is the Abott Quiver and it is still something a lot of casual players have no chance of getting, let alone the upgraded version. The other quiver from the harbor series is bleh....

Step 5:

Make it more worth tempting to be a lvl 12+ ranger. The pure lvl 20 ranger has become less and less viable with zen archery and elf AA builds along with the ranger splash for tempest. I would like to see something for the higher lvl rangers and reworking the capstone. It currently is not all that awesome that you wont mind giving it up for extra damage you can get multiclassing. Also ties in with better lvl 3/4 spells.

3 4 & 5 sound about right.

steps 1 and 2 I'm not sure about overall.

Rangers should have pets similar to Arti pets (though those still need some tweaks to be good)

How about a modification of that.

improve both paths overall but make it so you chose one as primary and the secondary path you get at a lesser level...or rather not full power.


Maybe instead of the current spread:

1. Bow Strength
2.TWF Rapid Shot
6. ITWF Many Shot
12. GTWF Precise Shot Improved Precise Shot

we make 2 path and two lesser paths

Greater Path Archery

2. Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
6. Many Shot, Bow Strength
12. Improved Precise Shot, Precise Shot

Greater Path TWF

2. TWF, TWD
6. ITWF, ITWD
12. GTWF, GTWD

and take half those bonuses and make lesser paths that the ranger gets when he chooses the other greater path.

Lesser path Archery

2. Point Blank Shot
6. Rapid Shot
12. Many Shot

Lesser Path TWF

2. TWF
6. TWD
12. ITWF


This way the ranger still gets a decent balance of benefits but can focus outside of specific PrEs... If I had my way Rangers would have a PrE that wasn't revolving around their specific Combat Style that could be chosen.

As for the specific PrEs

Tempest should have full off hand strength damage added into it and something to improve their defensive abilities perhaps a Shield Mitigation bonus.

AA should be removed and made just a Racial PrE and a new Ranger PrE should be added in preferably something that improves an Animal Companion aspect or something that emphasizes their FE.

DWS should get some severe attention and become an actual full PrE with good overall benefits.

Aesop

[Ravoc-DDO]

The name "Ranger" has nothing to do with the function of "ranged combat." It derives from "ranging" as in traveling, not shooting. The class has been named "ranger" since long before there was any association between the class and archery. As you probably realize, it was lifted from LotR's rangers (none of whom showed any especial interest in archery.

As for DDO specifically, there is nothing to indicate the devs ever expected rangers to be the best archers. They actually deviated from p&p design to make sure even archer focused rangers had melee capability.

Then why the bow class icon?

[noinfo]

Then why the bow class icon?

For the same reason my Barb has an axe one yet uses a Great Sword. Because thats what they chose.

[noinfo]

Step One:

Rangers should not have both melee AND ranged free feats. So step one is to force a split at lvl 6 to go either ranged path or melee path. That can tie into choosing Tempest or AA / Deepwood, but the split needs to happen so that each path can be boosted without overpowering the class. Plus, it follows the traditional rules of DnD.

Step Two:

As I said, step two would be to boost each path. I would like to see a ranged stance similar to power attack and a twf stance that is similar to power attack but maybe boosts offhand damage / double strike chances sacrificing "to hit" in both cases.

The problem is that the game does not follow traditional rules of DND even closely in most areas. If we dropped enhancements and PRE completely then maybe Rangers would be dangerous having ranged and melee. But in this game it is the enhancements that make a class powerful and the ranger ones are less than stellar.

Your Step 1. already happens in reality when they choose their PRE they must go either ranged or melee even if elf so I don't believe this arguement floats.

[Ravoc-DDO]

For the same reason my Barb has an axe one yet uses a Great Sword. Because thats what they chose.

You're using a great sword because that piece is heavily OP and should never have existed in the first place. Absolute weapons are abominations in a game that should strive for versatility.

[Aesop]

Then why the bow class icon?

that stupid icon has caused far too many of these conversations.


Turbine please change the icon to a Cross Hair Icon instead. or something else.

Aesop

[noinfo]

You're using a great sword because that piece is heavily OP and should never have existed in the first place. Absolute weapons are abominations in a game that should strive for versatility.

Thank you for telling me what I should use, I will keep it in mind. Sorry even an eSOS is not the only weapon in game particulary unless you have an unlimited supply of devil/demons ruin crystals.

Please keep to the topic of rangers as per my OP.

[Vormaerin]

Then why the bow class icon?

By that reasoning, fighters are supposed to be sword and board and paladins should fight with fists.