Another Update without Ranger Luv?

[noinfo]

@OP -

Interesting suggestions. I've been lobbying for Ranger tweaks for a while now, but tanking ability is one aspect I've never really thought about as a potential buff. it certainly makes sense with the barkskin/dex enhancements/tempest buffs and requirements all geared towards AC. Which is rather... annoying, since a pure Ranger would have a very hard time reaching a manageable AC (And would need to make serious sacrifices to do so - High dex, 13 int, combat expertise, leaving less feats and lower strength).

I hope this isn't a derailment! Ranger love, yo!

No not a derailment

There was a time when Rangers were kings. Ranger/Monk splashes (particulary halflings) with Wounding of Puncturing rapiers would tear through all content and really only needed help with bosses. Alacrity meant that they could stat damage faster and dex based meant high AC finesse builds that could outkill anything. It was not uncommon to see 6 splash Rangers in most melee builds. At that time the Vale was end game and the number of FE needed was few as almost all major bosses/threat types were evil outsiders, constructs, elementals, undead and probably whatever gnolls fall under. The problem is ever since that time all they have had is nerf after nerf. There is absolutely no danger in things going back to Ranger dominance again and that is a good thing but many of the reasons for many of the decisions that have altered combat in this game have gone.
1. DPS is king, Rangers while killing machines were never the highest dps in town and finesse based were worst. Now with vorpal nerfed on top, you are never going to see a top end killing machine that is dex based.
2. The complete nerf to AC (exploiters) this began with a poorly justified introdution of Grazing Hits that has led to the must have max hp and max heal amp view of things. Both of which downplays the potential of a ranger particulary a splash build.
3. The typing of the Ac bonus to shield was to nerf the high AC of ranger splashes compared to other builds particulary s/b, now with bonuses to SD and DOS who get a stacking AC bonus higher than tempest this is not really needed (not to mention massive hp bonuses)

Now the introduction of Damage Reduction % for defender type builds using shields (very much needed as these were really suffering) and monks (who have not been wanting for some time) and would provide a nice supportive ability for Tempest who are given a defensive buff yet not always able to make the most of it. This way those who dump their dex and go str/con still get some benefit and those who splash for AC can do the same.

I believe that major positive changes will happen with the enhancement changes, what we have been shown for rangers (very early) looks very good. However we have no idea when this is going to come in and regardless the changes suggested use a pre exisitng concept and would add value without coming close to OP while we wait for the big update that is long over due.

[Brennie]

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

They also "adjusted" Tempest I specifically because it made 6 ranger/14 otherstuff the most powerful dual-weilding builds, bar-none. Permenant 10% more melee damage from tier 1 of a PrE was simply too powerful to keep.

[Vormaerin]

An apparently little known fact is that this is the Lammania forum, not the Suggestions forum.

It is for feedback on the content produced, not for suggestions for new content. We want the devs to be able to use Lammania as a significant source of testing and feedback. That means it needs to be focused. If it becomes a general suggestion and whining forum (of which we have several already), its ability to function in that fashion degrades sharply. I know it appears the devs pay more attention here, but that won't be true if we flood this with off topic threads.

This would result in less of our input into the stuff they are actually doing before it hits live.

Note: I am not saying that your topic shouldn't be discussed. I am saying that it is in the wrong forum (General is more appropriate, or Suggestion if you propose actual ideas).

[noinfo]

Gotya, and I remember that. That supposedly "fixed" the lag...and it didn't.

So with that being said...the Ranger Class has been spanked due to server latency. That does not seem "fair".

I guess spells and some other things may be the way to re-balance Ranger since attack speed seems to not be the route that will be most likely taken.

I know Ranged Combat and Ranger are not necessarily the same...but I think Power Attack effecting Ranged Attack would also boost the Ranger class a bit too.

Actually the change did get rid of dps lag for the most part, doing part 2 of shroud was something that was swing and hope at times.

[red_cardinal]

Wait for summer. Hopefully, they will revamp every class.

[noinfo]

Wait for summer. Hopefully, they will revamp every class.

Already acknowledged that is happening several times, not the title of the thread. This is a bone they can throw now while we wait as we have waited and waited.

[licho]

I agree that rangers need some attencion, especially melee rangers could benefit from more serious temp III and capstone.

But do not forget about spell selection, which especially at higher tiers is poorly. So it will be good to see:
- Some buff to animal companion so it has more hp.
- Some minor spells like:
surefoot - add a balance +10 to ally target
minor vitality - healing over time (good for druid spell)
elemental weapons - add a chosen element to wielded weapon
mineral dust - add the chosen mineral to wielded weapon
bane weapon - if you have a FE you can make any wielded weapon bane against that kind.
Some debuff abilitty like mark target which will make easier to hit and dmg choosen opponent.

[grodon9999]

Ok I am a bit curious...

Why did Tempest 1 have to lose the Alaclarity?

I have never played a Ranger (atleast not to end game). SO I really wonder what is needed.

I have partied with Grodon (aka BigJunk) a long time ago and he pulled his weight, but I felt it was the player behind the keyboard more than anything.

I have also played with DEX based finesse builds and um...my mom said if you can't say anything nice...don't say anything at all.

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that.

One other thing that suprises me...no one mentioned rangers lack Toughness Enhancements. Please give them Toughness Enhancements.

The other thing...to me (this is just opinion) there seems to be almost no reason to go past level 6 or 11 maybe 12 ranger.

6 for Manyshot and Tempest 1. 11 for the next tier of dual-wield. I guess if you go to 11, why not go to 12. I understand maybe some spells or other things could be a good reason to level further. But for the most part, it seems to be more "end-game viable" a deep splash of something else seems to be beneficial to ranger. Like some Fighter (Kensai I and II) or Barbarian (Frenzy Berserker) levels.

Am I way off base?

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

The Ranger 6 Splash was over-powered, it got too much too early. A nerf of this was understandable as even with it the "monster" 12/6/2 builds are still every good.

Tempest III was never over-powered compared to kensai or FB (having just levelled up a pally I can say Tempest is better than KoTC, but that's a different conversation). The U5 nerfs were disproportionate with Tempest III losing the most amount of swings. The double-strike of 5% is too low, should be either a straight higher number or 5% + DEX bonus.

Tempest III's best strength right now it to-hit. A Tempest III with OTWF has NO TWFing penalties. Combine that with the Tempest set from ToD and something that gives you a +4 Competence or un-typed bonus and you can solo base 1 in EVON6. When tanking the bosses in EDA I can hit them on a 2 while I have aggro, a deeper splash (and I know from experience having had a 15/3/2) will have more problems with that.

And the 18/1/1 is still excellent in post level 20 play but you need gear. But then again EVERYONE does (except casters . . .) to not suck in epics. When you're 30ish STR and don't have any raid loot you do not belong in epics, when you're 40ish STR and have you raid loot and good to-hit you'll do just fine. Get your raid loot first.

Focus on different stuff, where your AC doesn't work your displacement scrolls and blue-bar self-healing does. Most of the big hits in this game that can potentially one-shot toons have a save, you have the potential of an excellent reflex save so most of that will not hit you. 500 HP and a 40+ reflex save helps a lot, whether it's running up to the Abishai in eChrono for the casters in EVON3, or hell so many situations to mention.

Build the right weaponry, take advantage of the fact that you get the most swings so weapon procs really work in your favor. I'm a few shards away from a Triple Earth Alchemical that should be a hell of a lot of fun in epics, earth-grabs work fantastic also.

My stable of toons is much larger than it used to be but mine is still my go-to guy if we don't need a special role filled. He's also my go-to guy for joining questionable pugs.

[voodoogroves]

I don't really think it's right to compare rangers fully to Fighters and Barbs, it's too apples and oranges.

But comparing to monks is fair game and the amount of OPness that has hit monks in recent updates (especially the stance changes from the last up) is baffling. Shade's completely right on this.

I do hate the nerf to TWF monk tactics no longer proc'ing on the 2nd swing; that was a bit painful.

I don't think monks are OP. I think they are the bar, and we need to raise the others.

Tempest attack speed or doublestrike or whatever they get should scale linearly so that splash trade-offs aren't as absolute. I'd like to see the real choice between Tempest 2 / Something else 1 and Tempest 1 / Something else 2 be serious. Tempest 3 should be the absolutely crazy fast attack/doublestrike/whatever.

[noinfo]

I don't really think it's right to compare rangers fully to Fighters and Barbs, it's too apples and oranges.

But comparing to monks is fair game and the amount of OPness that has hit monks in recent updates (especially the stance changes from the last up) is baffling. Shade's completely right on this.

While it was limited to SD/DOS shields I could live with just having the AC revert to untyped but with monks stances this request should be a no brainer.

Rangers should be comparative to monks and I completely agree on this, and to a degree Pallies though Rangers are more versatile than they are, they have severe limitations as well (Hp being the major one)

[CheeseMilk]

Wounds be gone (I suck at naming things):

small self only heal over time. ~5 dmg every 2 seconds for say maybe a minute. (more than 5 maybe but with heal amp may get too strong)

Regrowth.

Already in-game on an item, and it was on Festivult Cookies a couple of years ago. Not great, but with some healing amp and devotion lines, it would basically be a personal radiant servant aura. Fits with the ranger (and Druid!) theme, too.

[Thrudh]

That supposedly "fixed" the lag...and it didn't.

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

[grodon9999]

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

it really didn't

I was on the Lamania tests where 10 Tempest Rangers still bogged a shroud down with SO much DPS lag I though my PC was going to catch fire.

it wasn't until Turbine raised the bandwidth cap per player that DPS lag got better.

The U5 TWFing changes didn't help in that regard, it was a nerf and nothing more.

[Crann]

Ok I am a bit curious...

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that. They did say that

...

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

They blamed the lag problem, in part, on the additional collision detections caused by the attack alacrity of tempests, monks and others.

They introduced the doublestrike mechanic the fix it, only they forgot to give it to Rangers, except for the paultry 5% Tempest 3 recieves.

My Exploiter was super fun to play to cap, until I leveled a fighter and a barb, and learned what DPS really was.

[Chai]

I don't really think it's right to compare rangers fully to Fighters and Barbs, it's too apples and oranges.

But comparing to monks is fair game and the amount of OPness that has hit monks in recent updates (especially the stance changes from the last up) is baffling. Shade's completely right on this.

However...

Monks were kicked alot harder than rangers and for a longer time. Handwraps have been broken on and off for years, rangers running around with greensteel khopesh all over the place for 2 years before TOD came out, then monks have to burn their ability to get exceptional stats so they can have more damage mods they should have gotten on wraps in the first place.

I just think monks got their love before rangers and paladins did, and not in place of rangers getting theirs.

All they had to do IMO in U5 was switch tier 1 of tempest with tier 3 of tempest. Want that haste? - Take 18 levels of ranger to get it, and not a mere 6 levels.

[Chai]

You make yourself less credible when you say stuff like that...

Hardly. Their measuring tools show that it had a positive impact on one cause of lag. Just like DA, there were better ways to alter the physics checks as demonstrated in other games, that have historically worked, than an overall nerf to attack speeds (which they then came out later on and waffled on anyhow by stating that the nerf and the physics checks were two different things, and the fact that they were tied to the same update does not mean one had to happen when the other did).

[rtgr10]

I was reading this post and thought of a better thing about rangers. Why not expand the list of favored enemies and improve the damage against them? (which should be automatic and not enhancements) I think it's a way to improve the class in general. In D&D there are hundreds of races in the list of favored enemies ... has little in DDO.
Just an idea.

[Thrudh]

it really didn't

I was on the Lamania tests where 10 Tempest Rangers still bogged a shroud down with SO much DPS lag I though my PC was going to catch fire.

it wasn't until Turbine raised the bandwidth cap per player that DPS lag got better.

The U5 TWFing changes didn't help in that regard, it was a nerf and nothing more.

There are multiple causes of lag. No one fix is supposed to "remove lag". You can't say "hey we still have lag, that fix obviously did NOTHING."

I'm a server administrator. I collect performance metrics. I have baselines to compare against. If I tell you that a change reduced lag, it reduced lag. It may not have eliminated lag, but I can tell if a change helps.

I sometimes wonder about the devs decisions myself, but I dislike it when you guys call them liars.

[grodon9999]

There are multiple causes of lag. No one fix is supposed to "remove lag". You can't say "hey we still have lag, that fix obviously did NOTHING."

I'm a server administrator. I collect performance metrics. I have baselines to compare against. If I tell you that a change reduced lag, it reduced lag. It may not have eliminated lag, but I can tell if a change helps.

I sometimes wonder about the devs decisions myself, but I dislike it when you guys call them liars.

Wasn't calling them a liar, you can be wrong and not be a liar if what you think you're saying is true.

Just saying . . . when we did the tests on U5 lamania the lag was so bad before they increased the bandwidth per player that calling that a lag fix is just far from reality.

Increasing the bandwidth per player did fix the DPS lag.

Were both steps needed? I can't say but it would have been interesting to test it out with the increased bandwidth and the old alacrity.

[Vormaerin]

I sometimes wonder about the devs decisions myself, but I dislike it when you guys call them liars.

Very much this. There is way too much "assumption of malice" type posts and outright accusations of lying that go on here.