Another Update without Ranger Luv?

[noinfo]

Not exactly sure the last time Rangers got anything except the shaft (pun intended)

Every single melee class has recieved some upgrade since U11 except Rangers

1. Fighters and Pallies got their defensive PRE upgraded
2. Barbs and other classes with damage boost got it upgraded.
3. Monks got their stances upgraded and alchemical wraps that stack with TOD rings (yes I know wraps are buggy).

Apparently Rangers are king of the game since the last change to them was a nerf that removed both their melee alacrity AND typed their ac bonus to shield.

Yes I saw and approved of what appears to be a great revision of the enhancements for the whole system that will be coming sometime in the next year but seriously give us something now.

I have asked for this before and I still believe its needed: give rangers shield of whirling steel the same DR benefit as monk earth stance. It seems a simple change but one that strengthens a class that has limited HP and often in situations where their AC is not going to be high enough to matter for the shield bonus to be irrelivant (and its half the pre)

Tempest 1 = 5%
Tempest 2 = 10%
Tempest 3 = 15%

It will not make rangers tanks (less hp)
It will add to their survivablilty in a game that is more about HP and DPS than anything else.

Yes I know the devs want to be focusing on their new project but a small pre improvement for a class that has been completely ignored is certainly due. Oh and also take a look at the CE spell point thread, something else that should make it into U13.

[Vormaerin]

Don't expect any enhancement changes until the bathwater is thrown out in the expansion.

Speaking of which, we already know that Tempest is getting additional abilities from the Dervish class, so there's obviously something going on there.

[QuantumFX]

Based on the information in the Let’s Talk: Enhancements thread Tempest Rangers will see some love in the expansion pack. They’re pulling stuff from the Dervish PrC that should add some nice DPS punch to the class.

[LeLoric]

Not a huge boost to rangers but the hold animal change is mildly useful.

It now works on vermin and magical beasts and unintelligent ones get no saving throw.

The last part is the key. Scorps/Most spiders now get a 15 sp 45 second hold with no recurring save. Not widespread useful but it still has some mild uses.

I would love to see some changes to the spell dc's of ranger spells and add entangle into the game. Snare entangle and spike growth with useable dc's along with hold animal would make for a moderate cc package.

[grodon9999]

Not exactly sure the last time Rangers got anything except the shaft (pun intended)

Every single melee class has recieved some upgrade since U11 except Rangers

1. Fighters and Pallies got their defensive PRE upgraded
2. Barbs and other classes with damage boost got it upgraded.
3. Monks got their stances upgraded and alchemical wraps that stack with TOD rings (yes I know wraps are buggy).

Apparently Rangers are king of the game since the last change to them was a nerf that removed both their melee alacrity AND typed their ac bonus to shield.

Yes I saw and approved of what appears to be a great revision of the enhancements for the whole system that will be coming sometime in the next year but seriously give us something now.

I have asked for this before and I still believe its needed: give rangers shield of whirling steel the same DR benefit as monk earth stance. It seems a simple change but one that strengthens a class that has limited HP and often in situations where their AC is not going to be high enough to matter for the shield bonus to be irrelivant (and its half the pre)

Tempest 1 = 5%
Tempest 2 = 10%
Tempest 3 = 15%

It will not make rangers tanks (less hp)
It will add to their survivablilty in a game that is more about HP and DPS than anything else.

Yes I know the devs want to be focusing on their new project but a small pre improvement for a class that has been completely ignored is certainly due. Oh and also take a look at the CE spell point thread, something else that should make it into U13.

I'd go with 5 -10 - 20% - considering how ridiculously OP earth stance is that is FAR from it. I'd also change the SOWS AC bonus to un-typed.

Never would I have suggested this if it weren't for the obscene amount of OP monk changes in the last update.

The offensive stuff leaked in the ENH thread looks promising, fingers are crossed.

[Qhualor]

Based on the information in the Let’s Talk: Enhancements thread Tempest Rangers will see some love in the expansion pack. They’re pulling stuff from the Dervish PrC that should add some nice DPS punch to the class.

sweet! finally some ranger wuv.

[LeLoric]

One thing I would like to see for rangers is better spells at higher levels. 3rd and 4th level spells for rangers are blah. This would help the pure or heavy rangers without giving too much to splashes.

Some level 3 or 4 ideas.

Foebane:

Enhance this spell to not overwrite effects like the pnp version but instead have it give favored bane to your existing weapons +2 enh and 2d6 bane dmg to any of your favored enemies. Doesnt stack with any bane effects already on the weapon.

Tiger's might:

Ram's might but also with 5% double strike. Doesn't stack with rams.

Air mantle:

Gives a miss chance against ranged as well as immunity to cloud/fog effects.

Wounds be gone (I suck at naming things):

small self only heal over time. ~5 dmg every 2 seconds for say maybe a minute. (more than 5 maybe but with heal amp may get too strong)

[Hobgoblin]

Heartstrike:

Enhance this spell to not overwrite effects like the pnp version but instead have it give favored bane to your existing weapons +2 enh and 2d6 bane dmg to any of your favored enemies. Doesnt stack with any bane effects already on the weapon.

Tiger's ferocity:

Ram's might but also with 5% double strike. Doesn't stack with rams.

Ride the winds:

Gives a miss chance against ranged as well as immunity to cloud/fog effects.

minor regeneration:

small self only heal over time. ~5 dmg every 2 seconds for say maybe a minute. (more than 5 maybe but with heal amp may get too strong)

in red for names.

keep it at 5 for rangers - give regeneration and greater regen to druids. have it do 10ish for regen, and 15 for greater as well as auto removing 1 pt or perhaps all stat damage per tick

hob

[EustaceTrevelyan]

sweet! finally some ranger wuv.

Sweet Ranger Wuv would be a good indie band name

[LeLoric]

in red for names.

keep it at 5 for rangers - give regeneration and greater regen to druids. have it do 10ish for regen, and 15 for greater as well as auto removing 1 pt or perhaps all stat damage per tick

hob

Foebane is an actual spell so doesn't need shanged most likely but the other's are good.

[EpiKagEMO]

i believe ranger should be getting their double strikes back only on tempest II

[noinfo]

I'd go with 5 -10 - 20% - considering how ridiculously OP earth stance is that is FAR from it. I'd also change the SOWS AC bonus to un-typed.

Never would I have suggested this if it weren't for the obscene amount of OP monk changes in the last update.

The offensive stuff leaked in the ENH thread looks promising, fingers are crossed.

The overall upcoming stuff looks fantastic and I am glad they combined the Dervish stuff in there (I made a suggestion a year or 2 ago with something similar based around weapon finesse or ranger I think)

The problem is that we have no idea when its happening and some love now is long overdue so to all those saying to wait, sorry I have waited and waited and waited, this change is not drastic, and certainly not OP. 20% for tier 3 would not bother me either since its pretty lackluster all round.

[bbqzor]

2. Barbs and other classes with damage boost got it upgraded.

1) TR your ranger into a human or half elf.
2) Combine Versatility Damage Boost with Manyshot.
3) ????
4) Profit.

You can have the same boost everyone else got if you want it. I'm only pointing this out because all too frequently posts are made comparing some things but not others. The reality is, the changes are more broadly applicable than it may seem, and rarely does a class really get nothing. It may not get something directly, or it may not get something an individual wants or was looking for, but most of the time indirect benefits apply at a minimum.

Additionally, as others have said, direct changes are coming with the two biggest ones IMO already cited: the hold animal and enhancement ones. More than just a change to the current enhancements, the overhaul will do wonders for Rangers specifically, with a reduction or elimination of feat requirements for Tempest which is possibly the steepest opportunity cost PRE there is. If anything, Rangers will get the most benefit from this.

Then there's also the new items. The Epic Earth Bow from the Cannith Challenges is very easy to get and generally performs extremely well relative to most other options, in many cases being the best choice or close to it. And in U13 the blunt typed bow is coming which covers another huge gap for Manyshot. Even for Tempests, Manyshot is very powerful and discarding bows because you're not an Arcane Archer is a mistake, while for Arcane Archers the boost is even more noticeable.

I don't really think saying Rangers have gotten nothing has much of a foundation. They didn't get more melee haste, which is what you maybe were looking for, but they certainly have some things coming in.

[noinfo]

I don't really think saying Rangers have gotten nothing has much of a foundation. They didn't get more melee haste, which is what you maybe were looking for, but they certainly have some things coming in.

1. Link to where I suggest anything regarding melee haste? There was a very good mechanical reason for why melee alacrity was removed and doublestrike introduced. The side effect was a net nerf to Tempest in particular, which I pointed out as the last time (along with the typing of the shield bonus) any changes were made to rangers. No one expects rangers to go to the top of the dps ladder though should be good on FE, what we do want is something that compares to the other enhancements offered as part of a PRE.

2. Let me spell it out for you:
Tempest gives bonus to offhand (and small doublestrike at tier 3) AND typed AC and that is all.

3. Most of us who follow the forums know there is going to be an enhancement change down the track and the mock up ranger one looks very good, no one will argue that. As a result I am not asking for a huge change that would require thought as to ballancing, instead I looked at the current trend in PRE and enhancements with SD/DOS and monk stances where the defensive part of theirs class enhancments included a %dr bonus based on using a shield in the case of the first 2 and stance based on monk. Tempest supposedly gains a shield bonus (formerly untyped before nerf) and it would be reasonable for them to gain a similar bonus as a percentage reduction while dual wielding. This is not a major change or game breaking change but would be something to help float a class until the big revamp happens.

[noinfo]

1) TR your ranger into a elf or half elf Kensai 2/3 AA. <-Corrected for you since you seem focused on ranged (some people are confused as to the origin of the name I suppose)
2) Combine Haste and Powersuge with Manyshot.
3) ????
4) Profit.

Fixed it for you.

[Bacab]

Ok I am a bit curious...

Why did Tempest 1 have to lose the Alaclarity?

I have never played a Ranger (atleast not to end game). SO I really wonder what is needed.

I have partied with Grodon (aka BigJunk) a long time ago and he pulled his weight, but I felt it was the player behind the keyboard more than anything.

I have also played with DEX based finesse builds and um...my mom said if you can't say anything nice...don't say anything at all.

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that.

One other thing that suprises me...no one mentioned rangers lack Toughness Enhancements. Please give them Toughness Enhancements.

The other thing...to me (this is just opinion) there seems to be almost no reason to go past level 6 or 11 maybe 12 ranger.

6 for Manyshot and Tempest 1. 11 for the next tier of dual-wield. I guess if you go to 11, why not go to 12. I understand maybe some spells or other things could be a good reason to level further. But for the most part, it seems to be more "end-game viable" a deep splash of something else seems to be beneficial to ranger. Like some Fighter (Kensai I and II) or Barbarian (Frenzy Berserker) levels.

Am I way off base?

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

[Brennie]

@OP -

Interesting suggestions. I've been lobbying for Ranger tweaks for a while now, but tanking ability is one aspect I've never really thought about as a potential buff. it certainly makes sense with the barkskin/dex enhancements/tempest buffs and requirements all geared towards AC. Which is rather... annoying, since a pure Ranger would have a very hard time reaching a manageable AC (And would need to make serious sacrifices to do so - High dex, 13 int, combat expertise, leaving less feats and lower strength).

A while ago i made THIS THREAD, discussing what i felt were the fundamental flaws facing Rangers, including:

• Basic problems with Ranged combat, especially in relation to slow attack speed (Which means bonus damage is less effective to bow users), and the "reload animation" problem with attack speed increases.

• Tempest III. With its feat cost, and the relative lack of 'awesome' for Ranger levels 13+ for Rangers, Tempest III needs make Pure Class melee Ranger desirable, rather than a liability.

• Capstones. Currently we only have one, which suffers from the "Reload animation" issue, and is utterly undesirable to melee Rangers.

• Ranger Spells. So many are awful, or not beneficial to the Ranger. Dcs are a problem. And Ranger level 3 spells are terribad.

• Other Issues. Dismiss charm, AA ToD set, Ranger Past Life Active/Passive and Helf Dilli: ranger - More in depth in the linked thread.

• Favored Enemy. Now this is what i feel is the most completely imbalanced and restricting feature for Rangers. I put this last so that i can go into more detail.

Currently, the possible Favored Enemy list is a mess. The majority of Favored Enemy types are utterly worthless choices: Vermin, Ooze, Dragon, Plant, Reptilian (Once you get passed the Harbor), Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Orc, Gnoll, Hobgoblin, Animal, Magical Beast, Human (Debatable), Lawful/Chaotic Outsider, etc. I have never seen anyone seriously recommend any of the above outside of very specific instances, or patently bad advice.

So why are these choices considered subpar? Compare them to one of the most popular choices: Undead. Favored Enemy Undead covers all of the "key elements" of what makes a good Favored Enemy:

- Large Level Spread. Undead can be found from 1 to 20, with a strong likelyhood to appear in future content (Underdark especially).

- Multiple Ranks. Undead have notable entries in swarms of cannon fodder, tougher middle-men, bosses, and even Raid Bosses, so they are found in multiple situations.

- Commonality. Undead are found in many different quests, with some content devoted almost exclusively to them.

- Difficulty. Undead have inherent immunities, often with DR, or incorporeality. They also often have very annoying special abilities which can be devestating in prolonged fights.

Many of the "not so good" Favored Enemies lack one or more of these components, while most of the most commonly taken Favored Enemy groups have all of these, or are so heavily stacked in one area that they far overcompensate for their shortcomings (Evil Outsider, for example, has difficulty and Raid Bosses in such abundance that it negates the lack of level spread).

Here is a repost of my "rough draft" idea to rebalance Favored Enemies to be roughly equal to each other, and narrowing their scope so that a pure class Ranger (With 5 favored enemies) can gain their bonus against roughly just under half of enemies faced:

Abberation - As is, plus Ooze and Plant. Ooze and Plant help fill out the fodder role, as well as extending the level spread and increased rarity of Abberation.
Beast - Include Animals, Magical Beasts, and Vermin. Extremely common enemies found at all levels, but lacking many notable bosses or difficulty factor. This category still needs work to be a contender.
Construct - As is, constructs are not quite as common as other groups, but the extra toughness factor helps them stand out as a top pick.
Elemental - As is, plus Mephits. Found at all levels, Common and Tough, but lacking notable bosses (plenty of easy bosses).
Extraplanars - Tieflings, Mephits, Djinni, Tharaak Hounds, anything and everything not covered by either elemental or evil outsider. Good level spread, very common, but lacking in tougher enemies and bosses. (I realize this name is rather generic, and could be confusing if people thought it included Elementals and Evil Outsiders)
Giant - As is, Giants fulfill all criteria nicely, and are already a top pick. Only concern is rarity at higher levels.
Humanoid - Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes. Very common enemies found at all levels, but not very tough, and very few notable bosses. Still a bit unbalanced, but inclusion of Drow and Duergar should help.
Humanoid, Monsterous - As is, but include Orcs, Goblinoids, and Gnolls. Mostly fodder, with a few tough enemies. Found at all levels, though it thins higher up. A few notable bosses (medusa, mostly) but light in that area.
Outsider, Evil - As is. Lacking in low level content, but more than made up for by being common, tough, and having a multitude of bosses and raid bosses. Possibly include Tieflings, unless this would make EO "too good".
Reptilian - Kobolds, Trogs, Medusa and Dragons. This category also needs some help, as it is still not a real contender. This category could perhaps be divided and merged with other groups (dragons into Beast, rest into Monsterous Humanoid?).
Undead - As is. As stated earlier, meets all criteria.

This is of course just a rough draft. Obviously it is not perfect, as some grouping are still obviously better than others, while some are still obviously worse. One suggestion i had in my previously mentioned thread was to allow some of the more common, but less threatening creatures exist in multiple favored enemy groups at once. Tieflings, for example, could be humanoids and evil outsiders or Extraplanars, while mephits could be Elementals and extraplanars.

Solidifying Favored Enemies would help keep Rangers in the swing of things, instead of having wide swaths of enemies where they are effectively -14 damage per hit. It would also allow much more variety in Favored Enemy picks, since the goal of the rebalancing is to make all FE groups equally attractive and useful.

I hope this isn't a derailment! Ranger love, yo!

[noinfo]

Ok I am a bit curious...

Why did Tempest 1 have to lose the Alaclarity?

I have never played a Ranger (atleast not to end game). SO I really wonder what is needed.

I have partied with Grodon (aka BigJunk) a long time ago and he pulled his weight, but I felt it was the player behind the keyboard more than anything.

I have also played with DEX based finesse builds and um...my mom said if you can't say anything nice...don't say anything at all.

But for real...why can't Tempest keep its 10% bonus speed? I am not a coder or anything, so if its a memory/computer issue...just say that.

One other thing that suprises me...no one mentioned rangers lack Toughness Enhancements. Please give them Toughness Enhancements.

The other thing...to me (this is just opinion) there seems to be almost no reason to go past level 6 or 11 maybe 12 ranger.

6 for Manyshot and Tempest 1. 11 for the next tier of dual-wield. I guess if you go to 11, why not go to 12. I understand maybe some spells or other things could be a good reason to level further. But for the most part, it seems to be more "end-game viable" a deep splash of something else seems to be beneficial to ranger. Like some Fighter (Kensai I and II) or Barbarian (Frenzy Berserker) levels.

Am I way off base?

PS... I have heard this in party chat a lot..."My exploiter was super fun to level from level 1-19...then I started raiding and saw how gimped it was compared to other DPSers".

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

[Bacab]

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

Gotya, and I remember that. That supposedly "fixed" the lag...and it didn't.

So with that being said...the Ranger Class has been spanked due to server latency. That does not seem "fair".

I guess spells and some other things may be the way to re-balance Ranger since attack speed seems to not be the route that will be most likely taken.

I know Ranged Combat and Ranger are not necessarily the same...but I think Power Attack effecting Ranged Attack would also boost the Ranger class a bit too.

[Blank_Zero]

The reason for the alacrity nerf was to cut down on server based calculations, this happened at the same time as twf in general got nerfed from actual separate attacks to proc based attacks.

Update 5 is the reason Smrti TR'd to a Blitz in the first place...