Melee DPS is dead:long live casters!

[FengXian]

Casters tanking? Sure it's possible, it's been done before as well, but nine times out of ten, in a raid a real TANK is tanking the boss, not some caster with a shield. Why? Because real tank builds do it better. Sure they may not be able to self heal as well as a WF caster, or PM, but that's what the healer is for.

Also, I rarely see raids that have more than 2-3 arcane casters/2Divine; the rest of the group is generally melee. As for the whole "Nothing but caster" raids someone mentioned, sure, they exist, but so do "all ranger" raids. your argument is invalid.

Point being, caster's should not be nerfed, and melee should just be happy with there place in the party.

Hell, my main is a 28pnt first life Ranger AA(undergeared AA at that!) and in most quest/raids I have most kills. Should my AA be nerfed because I get more kills than the melee? No thank you.

No, all caster raids are something I see EVERY DAY on Cannith at least. All ranger raids? I think I've seen just one 2 years ago, maybe.

Caster tanking is done regularly in eChrono, and often enough in ToD and LoB. Judging a toon by kills, now that's a valid meter...please...

[Schwarzie]

No, all caster raids are something I see EVERY DAY on Cannith at least. All ranger raids? I think I've seen just one 2 years ago, maybe.

Caster tanking is done regularly in eChrono, and often enough in ToD and LoB. Judging a toon by kills, now that's a valid meter...please...

I call that BULL.S.H.I.T. While "All caster Raids" happen they are far from common. As are all Barbarian Raids, all Ranger Raids, all $whatever Raids.

And in over 200Tods i have never seen that a caster tanks either Sully or Horroth.

The Claims here are becoming rather ludicrous by now...

[noinfo]

I call that BULL.S.H.I.T. While "All caster Raids" happen they are far from common. As are all Barbarian Raids, all Ranger Raids, all $whatever Raids.

And in over 200Tods i have never seen that a caster tanks either Sully or Horroth.

The Claims here are becoming rather ludicrous by now...

You might want to limit that to "in your experience"
I have certainly seen casters tank sulu in particular in TOD, infact when we 3 manned it I was the only melee (a ranger hybrid) on Horoth while the caster tanked and killed sulu.

All caster raids are becoming a lot more common, certainly they are no where near as common compared to traditional ones (and often all casters includes divines) adn they tend to go a lot faster than traditional raids and I tend to see or hear of one in channels at least once per day.

[Aashrym]

Saving Throw: Will save negates. What about DC43 Willsaves dont land there at all have you not understood? [Disclaimer: before any nitpickers point it out: yes ofc course there is the occasianal mob that is hold, charmed or whatever. But its a fair minority of hte mobs affected by one spell]

I was landing a lot better than the occasional failed saves long before breaking DC's in that range elite Amrath, not counting the paladins. Spell penetration used to be the bigger issue, not the DC's. What mob's in what quest are you talking about when you are referring to that DC43 save?

[FengXian]

I call that BULL.S.H.I.T. While "All caster Raids" happen they are far from common. As are all Barbarian Raids, all Ranger Raids, all $whatever Raids.

And in over 200Tods i have never seen that a caster tanks either Sully or Horroth.

The Claims here are becoming rather ludicrous by now...

Last elite ToD on my dedicated tank, I tanked Suulo and a wizard tanked Horoth. Couple of days ago. When we had just started doing LoB, a FvS was tanking the LoB, and we were arguing whether or not that was the best way. My first eLoB completion another FvS tanked (he is exceptionally good tho so let's not count this one).

All caster eChrono is almost the only way cannith pugs do eChrono nowadays. Traditional parties almost never fill anymore. Do I really need to go on?

If those claims are ludicrous to you, if you are shocked by this, then maybe you'll start to understand why there are so many threads about this topic. And again, the devs should have gotten the message by now so we can only wait for the enhancement overhaul, not much more left to do.

[justagame]

Haven't we all had enough hyperbole and exaggerations for one topic? Folks, when people exaggerate or make outrageous claims, or make claims based on extreme examples, they don't help their case.

Asking for nerfs based on extreme examples (i.e., all XXX runs, short-manned runs of extremely well-equipped and experienced players), is generally a BAD idea, because it shows little thought about how it affects "joe typical payer."

Asking for nerfs based on solo ability, while trying to deny fundamental aspects of core class abilities, is also generally a bad precedent. For example, I point to the numerous claims that it's self-healing that's at issue. No offense meant, but duh. Does it really shock people, that someone who has invested in self-healing, or defenses, has greater survivability in solo situations? Really? That someone with UMD to scroll themselves, or spells that heal themselves, can solo better and more quickly than someone who can't? To try to cut those builds down via nerfs is to deny reality. If you're expecting the single-minded melee dps build with no av, defenses, DR, umd, or anything else that mitigates damage, to be able to solo and keep themselves alive in an extremely harmful environment, that's just unrealistic.

Now, as I and others have pointed out in numerous posts across numerous threads, yes, melee abilities, namely defenses, need to scale a bit better at endgame. But simply calling for nerfs, and doing it across the board the way a few people are doing, smacks of envy, and is irresponsible. For example, this comparison of trash and boss damage. (i.e., pretending that arcane and divine casters should rightfully have no way to damage a boss meaningfully, except by swinging a weapon, is constucting a straw man definition of 'balance.') Some people seem to want a dull, one-dimensional game.

A caster tanked a boss? Hooray! A divine caster tanked LOB? Great! I applaud creative strategy, and the ability to build characters that can fill non-standard roles. It doesn't change the fact that most tanking is done by traditional melee tanks.

Oh, and one more thing -- pretending that "the sheer number of threads" is proof that there's a problem doesn't make it so. For one, it's the same few people, posting over and over and over again, making the same points again and again, and digging their heels in. Secondly, the forum population is a tiny fraction of the DDO world. And lastly, might does not make right. If that were so, I would use the countless number of threads stating as FACT the prediction that the spell pass would KILL ARCANE CASTERS, as proof that they must be dead. Naturally, they were wrong. Numerous? Yes. Passionate? Indeed. But wrong nonetheless.

[McFlay]

smacks of envy

Lol'd when I got to this part. What is there to be envious of? You log on alt A, then realize hey, I can do everything faster/easier with alt B, I'm gonna go play alt B now. Its not like people log on their lowly little melees and look at someone elses godly caster and think "Aww I wish I could be like!" You hit escape, log out, double click on a different toon, and envy issue solved lol.

For example, this comparison of trash and boss damage. (i.e., pretending that arcane and divine casters should rightfully have no way to damage a boss meaningfully, except by swinging a weapon, is constucting a straw man definition of 'balance.') Some people seem to want a dull, one-dimensional game.

Well let's break it down a little. If you are on an arcane and get to the point where you might consider swinging at a boss an option, its because you just dumped through your entire sp bar. Considering most bosses have shrines before them, I wouldn't really call dumping through your entire blue bar as not doing any meaningful damage. The reason I suggest doing a weapon swap, casters tensers, and going in swinging is because its far more helpful then doing nothing, and its a strategy I'd suggest using with or without dots being in the game. Its also possible to splash a couple monk levels, throw on some wraps, and go in swinging. Sure you'd give up a little casting potential but youd gain some sustained dps potential. Why should we even have a multiclass system if nobody should ever have to make choices like this?

Also, the reason I brought up the comparison to trash mobs is simple. If some casters rule at cc/ik, and some rule at area based dps, and they both also rule at single target dps, whats the point of being a melee when your only good at one of the 3 and casters can be great at 2 out of the 3? It as after all, a team based game you know. Kinda defeats that when everyone can just do everything.

And as far as divines not meleeing, for starters they both get .75 bab, the same as artificers, bards, and rogues. That alone not only gives them the capability, but plainly demonstrates that they are meant to do some melee from time to time. Sure they won't be as good as the more melee focused classes...but they shoudln't be, otherwise why bother with the melee focused class at all?

If thats not enough both also have access to some racial/class based weapon specialty enhancements. On top of that favored souls also get free racial weapon based feats as you level, extra enhancments to increase the damage of their chosen weapons, and melee boosts. Why would they have all those melee based skills if expecting them to swing a weapon if they want to do some sustained dps to a boss would just make the game boring and one dimensional?

In fact I would accuse you of wanting to make the game boring and one dimensional, because thats what you end up with when every class does everything. Like I said in a previous post, when it comes down to that just remove classes from the game and give everyone access to every enhancement and feat, as thats pretty much what you'll have anyhow.

[ferrite]

These 'rage against caster' threads are fairly common nowadays. And before I would have simply ignored it as another silly rage thread and moved on, however thought I should chime in this time.

After thinking on it, I believe that yes the OP has a point but not in the way you might think.

Really it all stems from a lack of creativity at Turbine, where all problems seem to now be solved with the thought of simply adding HP to the monster to make it 'tougher' and 'more challenging'. Having just fought an animated armor in challenges, I estimated it must have had roughly 5,000 hit points. I could be slightly off, but the beast simply would not die no matter how many eardweller-modded meteor showers I threw at it. It was CR 25, standard mob. And there were 4 of them. Yes it was epic, but still.. nothing should have that many hit points right out of the gate.

And herein lies the problem. Give enormous amounts of HP to mobs as the lazy man's way of supposedly making things more 'challenging', and you start a vicious cycle where you must then increase caster dps, and then melee dps to compensate. Then, the cycle repeats with still more hp doled out, then on and on.

Eventually you wind up with mobs with 5,000 hit points. Raid bosses with 300,000 hit points. And this is where DDO has brought us today. Expect the HP creep to only get worse.

So yes and no. Casters aren't really any more powerful than they should be, its just that mobs take longer to kill, overall. I can agree that swinging a d8 longsword doesn't help much with dps, and no combination of suffix or prefix mods can match the raw power of casters. But, I can agree something should be done to either roll things back to a normal level with regards to mob HP, or increase the default damage dice of all weapons to at least try and balance things out for melee. Naturally such things go against the core rules of 3.5, but Turbine has already grossly ignored the rules with the added 20 bazillion HP doled out to mobs, so things can't get much more broken than they already are at this point.

[FengXian]

The replies to those arguments, justagame, are already in the other threads (and in this one too). I think I have repeated myself enough now.

It' not about soloists, not about wrong impression from seeing exceptionally skilled players, and not about envy (lol). You can have great self healing, tanking ability, dps, CC/instakills (or both) on the same toon, w/o uber rare gear, great player skills or tons of past lives. No exaggeration.

[Zerkul]

You can have great self healing, tanking ability, dps, CC/instakills (or both) on the same toon, with the right gear, without great player skills or tons of past lives. No exaggeration.

Fixed for you ...!

[Thrudh]

You might want to limit that to "in your experience"
I have certainly seen casters tank sulu in particular in TOD, infact when we 3 manned it I was the only melee (a ranger hybrid) on Horoth while the caster tanked and killed sulu.

Here's an idea... Let's not design anything around input from people who can 3-man ToD.

[Aaxeyu]

And lastly, might does not make right. If that were so, I would use the countless number of threads stating as FACT the prediction that the spell pass would KILL ARCANE CASTERS, as proof that they must be dead. Naturally, they were wrong. Numerous? Yes. Passionate? Indeed. But wrong nonetheless.

I disagree with everything you said about nerfs. But this part is so true. If the devs would have listened to the majority at that time we would still have 5x stacking curses and casters would be even more OP.

[FengXian]

Yes, yes I agree casters do need some gear to work.

If you don't have at least some good items with potency, lore, spell focus, spell penetration, magi and such you won't go far. But we're not talking about epic RoSS here, we're actually not even talking about epic stuff at all. You can become very effective as a caster with just raid gear.

And we're not talking 3-men ToDs here.

That is the problem. If in order to be uber you actually needed to focus a lot on the toon acquiring lots of rare gear, player experience etc., so if it only was about people who can 3 men or solo ToD etc., it would be ok. But it's NOT just about those people.

As Ryumajin said (and he has a dedicated caster toon, nothing like my scroll farmer) a caster can have all that stuff even w/o great skill nor many past lives. Heck you can do it on 1st life and if you grab a PL: wizard (also one of the most effective ones btw) it gets way better. SOME gear, you do need. Nothing special tho.

Now try building a 1st/2nd life melee. Give him some gear. Like GS weapon + item, minos, a couple CC epics, mabar cloak maybe, tharne's, madstone, the usual stuff. Give it to an average player. I bet that even with SF pots he won't be able to solo any epic, nor to farm epic scrolls. Prolly not even on a monk.

And it's not about soloing, since even in a party the melee needs to rely on someone else, unless great player skill, experience and gear. For example, I can do pretty well in eADQ1 on my monk. But I need to chug pots (=resources) even if I healed thru meditation outside fights I'll end needing quite a few pots during fights. But it's not just that, I need to pay a lot of attention, either when kiting or stunning, and I still wouldn't be able to solo many parts of the quest in a reasonable time.
Now on a caster it's a JOKE. The hardest part is prolly sitting in shield block and refilling mana vs a couple of trogs. And you don't need to 3 men ToD in order to have an easy time in adq1.

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I don't understand why people don't use their time looking for a reasonable solution to this problem instead of denying it. It's there, the gap, it's huge, admit it. Try to make it go away without breaking the game for anyone.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Here's an idea... Let's not design anything around input from people who can 3-man ToD.

/cheer

I've almost always agreed with your posts, but this may be the best thing you've said yet!

[svinja]

Yes, yes I agree casters do need some gear to work.

If you don't have at least some good items with potency, lore, spell focus, spell penetration, magi and such you won't go far. But we're not talking about epic RoSS here, we're actually not even talking about epic stuff at all. You can become very effective as a caster with just raid gear.

And we're not talking 3-men ToDs here.

That is the problem. If in order to be uber you actually needed to focus a lot on the toon acquiring lots of rare gear, player experience etc., so if it only was about people who can 3 men or solo ToD etc., it would be ok. But it's NOT just about those people.

As Ryumajin said (and he has a dedicated caster toon, nothing like my scroll farmer) a caster can have all that stuff even w/o great skill nor many past lives. Heck you can do it on 1st life and if you grab a PL: wizard (also one of the most effective ones btw) it gets way better. SOME gear, you do need. Nothing special tho.

Now try building a 1st/2nd life melee. Give him some gear. Like GS weapon + item, minos, a couple CC epics, mabar cloak maybe, tharne's, madstone, the usual stuff. Give it to an average player. I bet that even with SF pots he won't be able to solo any epic, nor to farm epic scrolls. Prolly not even on a monk.

And it's not about soloing, since even in a party the melee needs to rely on someone else, unless great player skill, experience and gear. For example, I can do pretty well in eADQ1 on my monk. But I need to chug pots (=resources) even if I healed thru meditation outside fights I'll end needing quite a few pots during fights. But it's not just that, I need to pay a lot of attention, either when kiting or stunning, and I still wouldn't be able to solo many parts of the quest in a reasonable time.
Now on a caster it's a JOKE. The hardest part is prolly sitting in shield block and refilling mana vs a couple of trogs. And you don't need to 3 men ToD in order to have an easy time in adq1.

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I don't understand why people don't use their time looking for a reasonable solution to this problem instead of denying it. It's there, the gap, it's huge, admit it. Try to make it go away without breaking the game for anyone.

lol you say it's not about soloing, then your "example" is about soloing again, what an amazing mind we have here