Water stance in epics: improving shintao strike DCs...

[SensaiRyu]

Thinking out loud, jotting down some numbers, and open to comments or suggestions...

I'm running the numbers to try to improve my 34point light monk DCs in epic content. I never worry about it in non-epic runs... And I've read at least one post saying they went around in water IV but mostly for saves iirc. Well, I have water III which evens out my wisdom. Regardless, I can't take water IV.

Also I've stopped ignoring QP and made a shintao stun/kill quickbar for mob control.
imp sunder/QP/SF/Void IV/AS/Kukan/JS/JT/EC/Smite

With a +10 stun wrap, my light monk's SF proc's well in epics. But I've begun looking at upping my proc rate.

Tomb of Jade almost always procs on bearded devils and orthons (they have to save twice). Bearded devils seem resistant to SF but weak to Kukan. Orthons seem weak to SF.

I just got a +4 wis tome that I'm waiting to read (assuming that if I read it before U13 I won't get the TR tome benefit). Just looking at the pictures

Wisdom:
29 = 14base +1enh +2tome +2ship +2exc +6item +2yugo
32 = buffed +3 water III stance
34 = buffed +stance +2tome (+4 tome)
+12 wisdom mod

Charisma (for Kukan):
20 = 10base +2tome +2ship +6item
+5 charisma mod

My DCs with +4tome and water III stance - (Number in paren is after 1 Imp Sund hit):
42 SF (45) = 10base +10lvl/2 +12wis mod +10wraps; fort save
32 QP (35) = 10base +10lvl/2 +12wis mod; fort save
42 Jade = 10base +20lvl +12wis mod; 1-2 will saves. (2 will saves for extraplanar aberrations.)
42 Dismiss = 10base +20lvl +12wis mod; will save
42 EC (45) = 10base +10lvl/2 +12wis mod +10wraps; fort save
45 Kukan = 10base +20lvl +5cha mod +10wraps; will save

If I go fire stance I lose 3 to my wis mod (-1wis mod for fire and -2 for not being in water). If I go earth I only lose 2 wis mod. Water III gives me +2 wis mod.

Respec'ing my enhancements I could eek out +1 more wis mod DC to my wis-based strikes by adding +2 more wisdom.

But to get +1 wis mod I'd have to give up vers IV for vers II. Ending up with a Void IV, Earth IV, Shintao III, Vers II build.

I'd loose: 10% dmg per hit (when, and if, I ever use vers),
and gain: +5% chance proc to wisdom moves giving me +150% more to dmg.

One useful question would be - what are the fort saves of the epic mobs I'm hitting? And is it worth giving up ~10-15 dmg per hit for the +150% hits on stunnable mobs.

Final water stance DC's if I choose this path would be:
43 SF, 33 QP, 43 Jade, 43 Dismiss, 43 EC.

In water stance I get +10% chance to proc wisdom-based moves added to the +5% more by selecting 2 more wisdom enhancements. And the +4 tome gives me another +5% over my current DC.

If I TR'd (highly doubt it) I'd go for a 16 base wisdom and add +1 more wis mod and drop str by 1.

For those who care, here's the build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Female
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 307
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 15
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               14                    21
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20


Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist

Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light

Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Resilience

Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons

Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder

Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Eagle Claw Attack
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Shintao Monk I
Enhancement: Shintao Monk II
Enhancement: Shintao Monk III
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Improved Trap Sense I

Any thoughts on running epics in Water for the added wis-based DCs?

[dkyle]

You need to get an Epic Spare Hand. A Tier 1 isn't hard to get, and it gives you +5 DC on SF and Kakun-do.

With that, your SF should be reliable enough that Water Stance doesn't make much difference, and you can switch to better DPS stances (Wind or Earth). Wind even helps you with SF reliability, thanks to doublestrike.

The Frozen Tunic is also great for getting off Sun stance. Other than the extra Ki, Earth and Wind are superior in most cases.

[DevHead]

For Epic trash, I almost always use Water IV. My main is a helf dark monk with as much wisdom as she can get with a +2 tome (and no +2 exceptional yet. D. IIRC, in stance, she's at 44 Wis, so a 37 base SF. I can use +10 stunners for a 47, if I want, but I use +2 Imp. Cursespewing of Stunning +8, which makes it a 45 DC, and that lands very reliably in epics. However, with the curse, it's essentially a 49 DC and they often have a hard time making that save. With a spare hand, it's probably a win-win situation (I'm not sure, b/c I don't check the stats on enemies, because I like a surprise :P).

I know that in eDA with a 37 Q. Palm the fire eles always fail unless they get a 20. At least, I've only ever seen a couple survive, and usually that was because I just Q.Palmed a crate. :P

Of course, this is for a dark monk (and that ends up helping my ToD a lot), so I can only imagine how awesome Water IV would be on a light monk. I just think it's really underrated.

I would like to note that with the new epic spare hand out of the challenges, water stance may not be too attractive, considering, but remember that there's an expansion coming out this summer with epic levels; who knows what the saves on the mobs in there are like.

[SensaiRyu]

You need to get an Epic Spare Hand. A Tier 1 isn't hard to get, and it gives you +5 DC on SF and Kakun-do.

With that, your SF should be reliable enough that Water Stance doesn't make much difference, and you can switch to better DPS stances (Wind or Earth). Wind even helps you with SF reliability, thanks to doublestrike.

The Frozen Tunic is also great for getting off Sun stance. Other than the extra Ki, Earth and Wind are superior in most cases.

I got a Tier 1, put it on and ran several epics...

All I can say is Incredible stun proc rate on all stunnable epic trash. Even in earth/fire stances.

My base stun DC is 35. My wisdom mod ranges from +9 to +12 based on stance and buffs (haven't eaten that +4 tome which will give me an extra +1 mod).