TR leveling build 20wiz vs 18wiz/2rogue (PMvsAM)

[hawkytom]

Hello I'm going to pickup 3 wizard past lives for my sorcerer...These characters will be TR'ing again right as they hit level 20, so I'm not concerned at all about losing the capstone.

My main concern is whether or not the added survivability from evasion/insightful reflexes and trap skills(little bonus exp)...is worth getting, at the cost of some important spells arriving a 1 or 2 later. (also slightly less SP, spell slots, spell dmg etc..)

Also Palemaster vs Archmage??? (NON-WARFORGED, figured that was important to mention!)

I've looked over the great big TR checklist and was wondering if anybody had any other items they would add to that list that I should look into acquiring before the TR.

[DrakHar]

Hello I'm going to pickup 3 wizard past lives for my sorcerer...These characters will be TR'ing again right as they hit level 20, so I'm not concerned at all about losing the capstone.

My main concern is whether or not the added survivability from evasion/insightful reflexes and trap skills(little bonus exp)...is worth getting, at the cost of some important spells arriving a 1 or 2 later. (also slightly less SP, spell slots, spell dmg etc..)

Also Palemaster vs Archmage??? (NON-WARFORGED, figured that was important to mention!)

I've looked over the great big TR checklist and was wondering if anybody had any other items they would add to that list that I should look into acquiring before the TR.

If you want an easy TR levelling experience, why non warforged?

In that case, your second question is obvious. Palemaster. I like AM warforged better, but, there it is. A fleshy AM is not a good levelling build. (Not saying it isn't good at all, but, it certainly isn't what you want to have levelling.)

I prefer the 18/2 wf archmage, I don't see why it wouldn't work just as well for a PM. At cap , pure is probably better. For levelling, 18/2 can solo most things AND get the trap bonuses.

[trog_star]

i play AM till i unlock wraith form. lvl 12.1
I find guild pots are sufficent untill i get there, altho i'm thinking some silver flame pots would be usefull.

as for the multyclass question, never done it.
altho considering allot of TRs pop strait from 18 to 20, i sure wouldnt like 16 lvls of wizy in amerath.

[Spiffyspiffy]

When instantly TR'ing, always go for the evasion

[mrphlegm]

Evasion is really unnecessary, the damage you take with insightful reflexes alone is extremely inconsequential, would never ever delay wraith form or wail for it.

[Palson9]

I would say 20 wizzy, more spells and spell points. Also at lvl 2 rogue you usually wont disable high level traps.
PM= any class, Archmagi=WF
Self healing is a big part of being a caster.
Good gear=robe+cloak from mabar.
That's all I have. GL

[MattiG]

I would tend to disagree about not being able to get traps. Remember search and disable are INT skills... could be a challenge to get sufficient spot to have it be of any use.

I'm actually in the middle of my first tinkerer build now. I may or may not take a 2nd rogue level. Anyway, I was very much on a fence about it, but it has been a time saver so far, not having to wait for a trapper.

As others have said, any wizzy leveling build, id go warforged, AM or no PrE through level 12, then whatever you want after that.

[MeliCat]

Single splash rogue for traps and better scrolling - evasion only really necessary in very few places but it's nice to get trap bonuses. The better scrolling I found invaluable.

WF the easy button for wiz leveling life.

[DrakHar]

I would say 20 wizzy, more spells and spell points. Also at lvl 2 rogue you usually wont disable high level traps.
PM= any class, Archmagi=WF
Self healing is a big part of being a caster.
Good gear=robe+cloak from mabar.
That's all I have. GL

????? You are aware that wiz/rogues typically have higher search and disable than pure rogues unless the take mechanic, right?

[sirgog]

20 Wizzy with Insightful Reflexes IMO, although another popular one is 19 Wiz 1 Bbn (for sprint boost).

Half damage on traps is survivable (except in really odd spots like elite Black Dragon in Tor which isn't done often), and there are not all that many quests where XP/min is good but becomes better when you leave a caster behind to do traps. Usually you are better off having the caster zerg ahead killing everything to finish faster.

[Cardtrick]

WF necro/conj archmage or human pale master. (Strongly consider elf instead of human on the first life, for the stacking +4 bonus spell pen from elven arcanum before you get your past lives.)

Stay pure. Getting the "big" spells (fire ball, acid rain, fire wall, circle of death, DOTs, finger of death, wail) earlier will help you level much faster than evasion. Get insightful reflexes! Get spell penetration!

If you do decide that you want to multiclass for evasion, wait until level 14 (after you just got FOD and dancey ball) and then take 2 monk levels rather than rogue -- the feats, HP, and saves are worth more to a zerg-y TR build than rogue skills. (The bonus XP from trapmonkeying is pretty negligible these days with streak bonuses . . . it's very rarely worth the time from an xp/min point of view.)

[Spiffyspiffy]

Evasion is really unnecessary, the damage you take with insightful reflexes alone is extremely inconsequential, would never ever delay wraith form or wail for it.

Sounds like somebody levels running normal quests.

With bravery bonus, that kind of play will really slow you down.

[mrphlegm]

Sounds like somebody levels running normal quests.

With bravery bonus, that kind of play will really slow you down.

Not really. Currently at quest number 95 (almost lv18) streaking a first life sorc (atrocious reflex save) which has been a mad ip / byoh / zerg from the second i stepped off the boat. I haven't ran single quest on norm.

The only times I've died (where a reflex save would have saved me) are in traps when zerging quests I've never done before, and in elite chains of flame spinning blades trap (lol, did make it the first and second time but going back for gimps soulstones one time too many...). (Edit: i was severely undergeared when i did this, still wearing abi set, around 200 hp, a tr should be at least 100+ more hp)

For quests like taming the flames just use fireshield and protection from elements scrolls <- these trivialize all elemental based traps / spells.

I did miss having a reflex save for crucible swim and would probably have missed evasion there as well.

In conclusion, mario skills and pfe scrolls are all you need...

[goodspeed]

half elf AM 18/2 rogue splash. Take and throw 18 points into int 16 into con and take those 6 points and toss them into wis and take the cleric dili to wand and heal scroll whip.

Insightful reflexes and evasion makes you just flippn awesome. You can get traps which means you don't need groups, and you can stack sp with archmage pre's and play like a wizard of old only with cure critical and heal scrolls at your disposal.

Max an element life fire and with firewall and fireball (secondary acid) your good to steamroll right up to lv 14. Mix a low cost everything stops moving and stands there cc spell into the mix and your the soloer.

You could go PM as well and still do just fine, but theirs 2 things I don't care for.

One is worrying about some **** mob that can whip a divine spell at you. If you have a solid wall of a memory knowing where all these monsters are then you can turn on and off the form again and again as needed.

Two, I just like what AM brings to the table. I am a sp hog. I blow through it casually. It's for this reason I like my sorc alot. However I bring the same ideals to my wiz which doesn't mesh well. So the idea of having a cheap cc spell and stacked sp from pre's works for me. Even more so that they have the feats, and I can go helf and trade a couple points for what my sorc maxes his cha, and has gear for, and get it levels earlier.

But it's up to you and your playstyle. But one thing I full heartedly agree on. 18 wiz 2 rog is just by far the nicest leveling experience. Ever have a ball of asskicking whipped at you in shroud? Ever have a rogue or an arti go...****!! As the trap blows? Ya these are the times when you can't magically fly over the blades like a favored or monk, and evasion kicks ass.

as for which is better theirs a hijacked thread all about it here. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=358833

[sweez]

Sounds like somebody levels running normal quests.

With bravery bonus, that kind of play will really slow you down.

Considering you can easily survive most epic traps on a 20 wiz with insightful reflexes, if elite traps are slowing you down too much you're doing it wrong.

[Crann]

I am in the proccess of putting 3 wiz lives on a character, as well as leveling up a 1st life wiz/2 rogue.

My focus on the TR has been 1st time elites, as well as the usual quests for zerg xp farming.

My suggestion for the 1st wiz life is to go elf for the Arcanum enhancements, and stay pure. Extra spenn penn is going to be noticable until you get a life or 2 under your belt.

Take Evocation AM until at least 2 ranks into level 12 and then switch to PM. Don't switch at the 1st rank in level 12, because you will not yet be able to take Wraith form.

I went WF, and in the first 12 levels, really didn't need the spell healing. Potions/wands will get you through until you get to PM.

In hindsight, I think Evocation AM would have worked fine until cap. Power leveling is about running, gathering, blasting, repeating. Fireballs, Otilukes, Wall of fire, Icestorm etc. are the best for this, much better than your PM options IMHO, especially through mid levels.

As far as the rogue split goes....I have found it much better in a pure power leveling sense to have key spells a level or 2 early. From an end game perspective, I may enjoy the split for thye utility, however, it doesn't lend itself to powerleveling as well. You are still waiting for a rogue for the crazy at level elite traps in places were you want the xp from (think VON5.)

[Munkenmo]

having my own 18/2 wizard then tr'ing it into another 18/2 wizard, and my pure sorc which i TR'ed into a wizard for the past lives I'd say it comes down to playstyle.

If your all about the zerg, exp /min, get everything done fast as possible, the only times i found myself wishing i had evasion on my pure wiz were in von 5, cruicible and tor.

I hated leveling my 18/2, it was compounded by 2 guildies leveling up pures at the same time and being relative gods compared to me, with their better spells, better dc's and more sp. I literally became a trap monkey when i grouped with them, and was wondering why i was bothering when i wasn't.

with insightful reflexes, you'll save on the same amount of traps as your splash, but take half damage, if you get the cleric dilly it won't matter, pop a heal scroll, w/f quickened reconstruct, or pale master have your aura up and burst as needed.

The biggest thing with me is that the last 2 levels take nearly a million exp, they go by a lot faster when you have access to wail at level 17 vs 19. Flip side is if you do things slow and easy there's a lot of exp to be gained from traps, if you want to stop and search and detour for them.

[Spiffyspiffy]

Considering you can easily survive most epic traps on a 20 wiz with insightful reflexes, if elite traps are slowing you down too much you're doing it wrong.

I welcome any wizard without evasion to survive elite traps in say, Monastery.

[Munkenmo]

I welcome any wizard without evasion to survive elite traps in say, Monastery.

ceiling trap requires mario skills, rest are easily survived with insightful reflexes. if the ~180 damage on your sucessful save kills you, you're doing it wrong.

[Jubylina]

I've leveled a large majority of my toons with a couple levels of rogue to fit party dynamics - It is a pain in the arse getting the spells later on - but in exchange we get the extra xp bump from disabling the traps that is VERY useful on TR lives - it also saves a bunch of sp for your divines having to heal through traps. Never really had Trap DC issues either as long as you're well geared.

However I will say that I usually swap out the 2 levels of rogue - especially on my casters - at about level 16. That's when the pure gets really fun, the traps are mostly avoidable and quests require much more balance in the party.