Genasi, new bow (and crossbow) need a little love

[Ausdoerrt]

You are still thinking like the lvl cap is 20.

Lvl cal is still 20, and will remain so for when most people will be attempting the new epic quests. In addition, there's very little information for how the epic levels will work once they're released half a year or so from now. FWIW, the balance may completely change by then with the enhancement overhaul.

[sephiroth1084]

If you consider the case of an arcane archer adding the lightbringer effect is fairly useless. Whenever you roll a 20 with slayer arrows you do 500 dmg anyways plus your normal dmg. My ranger will do roughly ~80 dmg on one of these hits plus the 500. So for a hit point range of 1k down to 580 it has some value thats 5 shots basically. Consider most archers use bows only while under manyshot or 10k stars you bring that down to 1 or 2 shots.

Case is slightly different for repeaters but the fact they are already getting three shots per fire plus their runarm blasts often times keep mobs from ever hitting that under 1k mark.

Adding lightbringer would really only be of value for a tempest who pulls out a bow for manyshot meaning once again dealing with the 3 arrow factor. They realy only get value from 1k hitpoints down to 240 hitpoints. So roughly 3 manyshot volleys.

That's ignoring the fact that we have Deepwood Sniper, in some form, on the way, and some potential for ranged fixes coming down the pipe as well.

[LeLoric]

That's ignoring the fact that we have Deepwood Sniper, in some form, on the way, and some potential for ranged fixes coming down the pipe as well.

Yes it is ignoring dws. This is as of now dws sucks and we have no clue what it would be like in the future. I've hit on the primary ranged using characters right now with the possible exception of mechanic rogues but they are right there with the dws when it comes to undead dps.

As for future game mechanics sure there's the possibility they could hurt the situation or help it. We don't know anything other then the fact that theres vast changes coming (enhancement revamp, epic level setup completely different from our current level progression.) It's also possible they could render the eSOS obsolete and turn everyone into a ranged build and the underdark is lttered with liches and now the new bow is the new esos.

[Glenalth]

The amount of argument over these items are entertaining.

Nobody is really saying that it is too strong
Some people are saying it seems about right
Many people complaining it's too weak (though mostly in DPS comparison to GS bow)


I'm seeing a couple options...

Throw an extra non-DPS anti-undead utility effect onto it such as Coronach (DC20 will on crit or fascinate) or Ghost Touch.

Modify the current abilities such as taking off the Undead Bane and replacing it with Fracturing and Righteousness (if it's fixed) to make it better for general use as well instead of being just super specialized.

[Vormaerin]

Lvl cal is still 20, and will remain so for when most people will be attempting the new epic quests. In addition, there's very little information for how the epic levels will work once they're released half a year or so from now. FWIW, the balance may completely change by then with the enhancement overhaul.

This is true, but it is extremely unlikely that they are going to introduce the FR and epic levels in a paid expansion and then leave the balance such that 5% of the population (or whatever small fraction it is that plays epics right now) are all that get to use it.

I have no idea what they are going to with epic levels and epic content, but whatever it is, it will only be successful if it involves opening up epic content to more than the ultra geared raider crowd. Epic was initially introduced for them, but its obvious that they aren't enough to carry an expansion. So there has to be more to the future than to the present.

Given that, its very likely that items like this bow are expected to be attained by more people than those with multiple raidcrafted weapons.

[FengXian]

This is true, but it is extremely unlikely that they are going to introduce the FR and epic levels in a paid expansion and then leave the balance such that 5% of the population (or whatever small fraction it is that plays epics right now) are all that get to use it.

I have no idea what they are going to with epic levels and epic content, but whatever it is, it will only be successful if it involves opening up epic content to more than the ultra geared raider crowd. Epic was initially introduced for them, but its obvious that they aren't enough to carry an expansion. So there has to be more to the future than to the present.

Given that, its very likely that items like this bow are expected to be attained by more people than those with multiple raidcrafted weapons.

You think there's so little geared players? It's an actual question, I don't have any data...

However I do see a lot more tr's running around, and I think the new mid-high level content (lordsmarch, madness, challenges and now web) released a lot of viable, easy-to-get gear in the game. Same goes for the easy epics (carnival and sentinels mainly): some very good items, not too hard to obtain.

[Vormaerin]

You think there's so little geared players? It's an actual question, I don't have any data...

However I do see a lot more tr's running around, and I think the new mid-high level content (lordsmarch, madness, challenges and now web) released a lot of viable, easy-to-get gear in the game. Same goes for the easy epics (carnival and sentinels mainly): some very good items, not too hard to obtain.

Yes, I do think there are so few such players. Most non forum goers probably don't even realize there are "easy epics" much less can tell you which ones they are. TR and gear aren't actually related. A lot of people who don't run raids or epics do TR. They just buy the hearts of wood out of the store.

You don't have to be any kind of good or well geared player to TR. You can TR running solely on casual (not that I think that happens much).

Now, if you ask about utilization, that's a different issue. The players on many hours per week are far more likely to be heavily geared.

[FengXian]

Yes, I do think there are so few such players. Most non forum goers probably don't even realize there are "easy epics" much less can tell you which ones they are. TR and gear aren't actually related. A lot of people who don't run raids or epics do TR. They just buy the hearts of wood out of the store.

You don't have to be any kind of good or well geared player to TR. You can TR running solely on casual (not that I think that happens much).

Now, if you ask about utilization, that's a different issue. The players on many hours per week are far more likely to be heavily geared.

My point was that now there is a lot more easy obtainable, end-game viable gear. Even casual players, tr or not, will have what is needed to run at least some of the epics. If they don't, it's hardly because of gear, maybe because of misinformation as you said, or other reasons.

[InfamousDarkness]

undead being immune to crit (except for with the silver flame bow) but heres a random calculation

40strenght and improved critical ranged are assumed

EPIC Thornlord
Roll of 2-16
{[(2*8)+4+8]+15str score}*15 for non crits=645

Roll of 1 miss

Roll of 16-20
({[(2*8)+4+8]+15str score}*3crit multiplier)*4=516

645+516=1161
1161/20=58.05 average damage


EPIC Silver Flame longbow
Roll of 2-18
{[(2*8)+6]+15str score}*17=629
([2+12]/2)=7*17=119 HOLY
([2+12]/2)=7*17=119 UNDEAD BANE
119+119+629=867

Roll of 1 miss

Roll of 19-20
({[(2*8)+6]+15str score}*3crit multiplier)*2=222
([4+24]/2)=14*2=28 Holy Burst
([2+12]/2)=7*2=14 UNDEAD BANE
222+28+14=264

867+264=1131
1131/20=56.55 average damage

[Vormaerin]

If they don't, it's hardly because of gear, maybe because of misinformation as you said, or other reasons.

Yeah and how many times do you actually see that information shared? No one says "hey, here is how you can gear out so and so for epics with quest gear".

All you see in the forums and in advice is "OMG, you totally have to have this, this, that, and the other thing" each of which can be 20-100 raid repetitions to get.

Some weeks it feels like we can't go an entire day without some clueless vet posting about how you can't even cross the street without a greensteel hp item.

None of the builds ever talk about anything but raid gear and epic gear (except for a few things like eardweller & bauble).

So how is anyone supposed to know that epics are actually doable by non raiders?

[Artos_Fabril]

Yeah and how many times do you actually see that information shared? No one says "hey, here is how you can gear out so and so for epics with quest gear".

All you see in the forums and in advice is "OMG, you totally have to have this, this, that, and the other thing" each of which can be 20-100 raid repetitions to get.

Some weeks it feels like we can't go an entire day without some clueless vet posting about how you can't even cross the street without a greensteel hp item.

None of the builds ever talk about anything but raid gear and epic gear (except for a few things like eardweller & bauble).

So how is anyone supposed to know that epics are actually doable by non raiders?

Didn't you say that these are people who don't come to the forums anyway? They probably find out from other people in their guilds, random helpful (they do exist) knowledgeable people that they group with, they check the wiki, or they figure it out for themselves. Just because they aren't geared in raid loot or visiting the forums doesn't mean they're stupid. They have the same tools to figure this stuff out as any other gamer.

[Vormaerin]

Who said they were stupid? My point was actually about the level of misinformation out there.

The Wiki doesn't say anything about what gear is needed for epics and if you ask around, you'll get a long list of raid gear, DCs only attainable with multiple PL feats, and hp minimums that require every single possible hp item, feat, and enhancement to attain. Its ridiculous.

Its unlikely that anyone will spontaneously realize that many epics are easier than high level elites, so if they aren't dominating elite Amrath and Cannith, its not a given that they will suddenly realize "oh, I should be doing Phiarlan carnival on epic."

[FengXian]

Pretty simple IMHO. As someone who is new to the game, you move to higher difficulty content when you feel comfortable with current.
When I started epics I had GS stuff, a DT armor, minos, and such. Now people have even more options, once they're good enough in the Shroud they might move to epics.

It also depends a lot on the packs they have and on the purchase order.

Also guilds should help a lot about this. If they don't they're bad guilds I guess, or the wrong type of guild for new players.

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, that sounds sensible. But that's not what actually happens. If they ask about epics, they'll get told to TR or run raids before they think about it.

I feel like creating a second account and going to general with a post "I want to run epics, but I don't raid. What gear should I I be trying for from the regular quests?" and seeing what kind of response I get.

I suppose I'd be pointed squarely at the challenges now.